For those who bought a widebeam - regrets? or still happy?

[Robbo]

 

In the lower pound - it is pushed out of the lock, when the boat enters it from the lower pound. See original posting 40

 

What's that got to do with raising the boat and using more water to do so?

Edited October 21, 2014 by Robbo

[DaveGood]

Robbo,

 

What's that got to do with lowering a boat down a lock and needing less water to do so?

 

Discuss.

 

DaveG9od

[DaveGood]

Not to say your "point", if that was it was, (I'm assuming you are still insisting it takes more water to lift and lower a large boat through a lock then a small one.) was never valid to start with.

 

DaveGood

[Robbo]

Not to say your "point", if that was it was, (I'm assuming you are still insisting it takes more water to lift and lower a large boat through a lock then a small one.) was never valid to start with.

 

DaveGood

 

That was never my point. My point is that it takes the same amount of water to raise and lower a lock with or without boats.

[DaveGood]

Robbo,

 

Boats displace water, is this true or false?

 

If true, a boat, in a lock, changes the amount of water in the lock.

 

If true, the amount of water needed to raise or lower the lock level is NOT the same.

 

True or false?

 

DaveGood

[Robbo]

Robbo,

 

Boats displace water, is this true or false?

True

If true, a boat, in a lock, changes the amount of water in the lock.

True

 

If true, the amount of water needed to raise or lower the lock level is NOT the same.

False

True or false?

 

DaveGood

 

False as the with or without the boat it doesn't change because "Boats displace the same amount water as they weigh", so the level of water is the same when starting to fill

Edited October 21, 2014 by Robbo

[DaveGood]

Robbo,

 

Does a lock with a boat in it hold more, less, or the same amount of water as a lock with no boat in it?

 

You keep focusing on a boat that's going up, what about the same boat coming down?

 

Want to argue it makes no difference?

 

Ever tried to lift or lower tons of weight? Unless you believe in magic and Unicorns, in the real world, wieght and, by extension, volume, matter. Widebeams use less volume of water ( and therefore less wieght) per lock cycle then narrow beams. That's not a criticism of Narrow beams, just a fact.

 

I get to choose my opinions, one of which is that Nigel Farage has used tax payer funds to become a millionaire. But I can't choose facts. They are what they are.

 

DaveGood

 

 

PS that bit about Garage is actually a fact, on top of his hefty salary as an member of the European Parliament he claims to despise he's scoffed down more then two million pounds in expenses from the public purse as of 2009. Your guess is as good as mine who deep his snout has been in the trough since then.

Edited October 21, 2014 by DaveGood

[Robbo]

Robbo,

 

Does a lock with a boat in it hold more, less, or the same amount of water as a lock with no boat in it?

 

You keep focusing on a boat that's going up, what about the same boat coming down?

 

Want to argue it makes no difference?

 

 

See my previous post. And we are not about holding, we are on about raising or lowering.

 

 

That was never my point. My point is that it takes the same amount of water to raise and lower a lock with or without boats.

[DaveGood]

So,

 

It doesn't matter how much water a lock actually holds (because that will vary depending on the size and Wieghtt of the boat in the lock). It can hold or release either a dribble for a few minutes or a biblical flood for months, as long as it rises or falls by the same number of feet and inches it's used the same amount of water. I've a Unicorn for sale, interested?

 

DaveGood

Edited October 21, 2014 by DaveGood

[Robbo]

So,

 

It doesn't matter how much water a lock actually holds (because that will vary depending on the size and Wieghtt of the boat in the lock). It can hold or release either a dribble for a few minutes or a biblical flood for months, as long as it rises or falls by the same number of feet and inches it's used the same amount of water. I've a Unicorn for sale, interested?

 

DaveGood

Yep, we were on about locks that don't leak to keep it simple. For a leaking lock it depends which gates leaked the most, if they both leaked the same amount then you are back to they use the same amount. If the top gates leak more this will increase the emptying amount, if the bottom gates leak more this will increase filling.

[DaveGood]

Robbo,

 

You are happy to live in a world where wieght, volume, hieght, length, breadth, and for all I know gravity have absolutely no meaning for you or bearing, one on any other.

 

Me, I'm rejoining the real world, where, regrettably, there are no Unicorns.

 

DaveGood

[mark99]

 

 

• As other posts have pointed out, a further V tonnes is taken out of the upper pound to fill the lock - this is independent of D

 

 

If a fat heavy bugger sat in a bath that was full to brim of water, more water would spill than if it was a skinny person. However your point about "transit" seems valid. Going up, when the 35 tonne big boat moves out of lock, 35 tonnes of water have to "edge" into the lock cancelling out the 35 tonnes less needed to fill it.

 

Same if 10 tonnes boat. It's the transit that's important.

 

(ET stress the transit point)

Edited October 21, 2014 by mark99

[mark99]

So,

 

It doesn't matter how much water a lock actually holds (because that will vary depending on the size and Wieghtt of the boat in the lock). It can hold or release either a dribble for a few minutes or a biblical flood for months, as long as it rises or falls by the same number of feet and inches it's used the same amount of water. I've a Unicorn for sale, interested?

 

DaveGood

 

 

As said above, what happens when a big boat moves out of a lock "going up". If it weighs 35 tonnes, 35 tonnes of water slips past the boat as it transits the lock gates and fills the lock behind you perhaps unnoticed. If a boat weighs 10 tonnes , 10 tonnes water slips past the boat to fill the lock behind you.

 

The essential point being the water levels remain the same despite what your boat weighs/displaces.

 

It's a mistake to think of boat weight/displacement rather than water levels.

Edited October 21, 2014 by mark99

[Scholar Gypsy]

Since writing the above, I have come across this site.

 

The sections titled "water use" and "energy" make similar points to my postings above, ie a boat going uphill will use more than a lockful of water, and a boat going downhill less than a lockful; and also notes the link to conservation of energy.

 

I would prefer to find an engineering textbook to back this up - although the author of that site is a physics graduate and an electronics engineer... Maybe if he is a forum member he will be able to solve my battery woes..

 

We should probably get back on topic now ??

[mark99]

It was your example Robbo, you presented it as representative, you now claim its irrelevant? I agree.

 

DaveGood

 

Water moves round the boat in real life during transit hence your example (flying boats) is irrelevant.

[blackrose]

9 years living on on a widebeam and no regrets. I've done far more cruising on this boat than I ever did on my old narrowboat. In terms of manoeuvrability my widebeam can turn within it's own length on just over tickover without the bowthruster, so no problems there.

 

Of course there are canals I'd like to cruise but can't - but that's the compromise you make if you own a widebeam, and ALL BOATS are a compromise in one way or another.

 

Anyway, when I do this...

 

I'm moving all this!

 

And how could anyone regret that?

Edited October 21, 2014 by blackrose

[Ange]

I've never read a post on the forum from a widebeam owner who has regretted his/her choice.

 

As long as you go in with eyes open aware of the cruising limitations I can't see why you would.

 

I'm deeply envious of their living space and can see a time in the future when we'll make a choice between north and south and buy one - at the moment we want the cruising range - as Mike say it's always a compromise when you live on a boat.

[Bettie Boo]

9 years living on on a widebeam and no regrets. I've done far more cruising on this boat than I ever did on my old narrowboat. In terms of manoeuvrability my widebeam can turn within it's own length on just over tickover without the bowthruster, so no problems there.

 

Of course there are canals I'd like to cruise but can't - but that's the compromise you make if you own a widebeam, and ALL BOATS are a compromise in one way or another.

 

Anyway, when I do this...

 

I'm moving all this!

 

And how could anyone regret that?

I feel the exact same way Mike

 

btw is yours 1 bedroom or 2?

 

yours is 12ft yes? Can't believe how much difference that 14 inches makes - love your layout

[DeanS]

ok, I'm going to try and work this out without reading any previous posts

 

A lock fills up. It uses A amount of water.

The gates open, boat goes in. Some water therefore moves back out, so you've actually used A minus BoatVolume. A - BV inside the lock.

You then release A-BV out of the lock, and the boat sinks.

You open the bottom gates, and the boat leaves the lock. +BV amount of water then refills the lock.

 

Therefore, Since you used a total of A - BV + BV, you have actually used only A.

 

Therefore whether you have a narrow or widebeam, both boats actually only use A

 

TaDaa.

Sorted.

Clear as Mud.

[blackrose]

I feel the exact same way Mike

 

btw is yours 1 bedroom or 2?

 

yours is 12ft yes? Can't believe how much difference that 14 inches makes - love your layout

Just the one bedroom, 12ft beam.

[peterboat]

Just the one bedroom, 12ft beam.

When I was looking at widebeams I could not believe the difference between 10 and 12 foot beams so glad I went for 12 foot I will have to learn how to post pictures one day

 

Peter

[blackrose]

When I bought mine my budget was a bit limited. The standard size was 57ft x 10ft and they wanted another £3k for 60ft boat, but only £2.5k extra for 12ft beam (lined sailaway prices).

 

It didn't make sense to me - 10ft x 3ft extra length was an additional 30ft sq of interior space, while 40ft (cabin length) x an extra 2ft beam gave me 80ft sq of additional space. So the choice was a no-brainer!

Edited October 21, 2014 by blackrose

[mark99]

ok, I'm going to try and work this out without reading any previous posts

 

A lock fills up. It uses A amount of water.

The gates open, boat goes in. Some water therefore moves back out, so you've actually used A minus BoatVolume. A - BV inside the lock.

You then release A-BV out of the lock, and the boat sinks.

You open the bottom gates, and the boat leaves the lock. +BV amount of water then refills the lock.

 

Therefore, Since you used a total of A - BV + BV, you have actually used only A.

 

Therefore whether you have a narrow or widebeam, both boats actually only use A

 

TaDaa.

Sorted.

Clear as Mud.

 

Yes nice and simply explained.

 

It's not intuitive but correct.

 

It catches people out who go to great lengths to try to rubbish the fact that the same water is needed to transit a lock whatever boat size is used.

 

When going up, less water goes into the lock chamber via the paddles but lots go in via the top gates when they are opened and the boat moves out.

 

Now re widebeams. I would not rule out a widebeam but if we did get one it would be a shapely classic like a proper Dutch Barge. I've seen some lovely wide boats on the GU but they are all old classics.

Edited October 22, 2014 by mark99

[Dalslandia]

9 years living on on a widebeam and no regrets. I've done far more cruising on this boat than I ever did on my old narrowboat. In terms of manoeuvrability my widebeam can turn within it's own length on just over tickover without the bowthruster, so no problems there.

 

Of course there are canals I'd like to cruise but can't - but that's the compromise you make if you own a widebeam, and ALL BOATS are a compromise in one way or another.

 

Anyway, when I do this...

 

I'm moving all this!

 

And how could anyone regret that?

 

You have a lovely boat BlackRose

[blackrose]

 

You have a lovely boat BlackRose

Thanks. It's not bad for a basic Liverpool Boat, but it really could do with a paint job now.