A question about surveys.

[Southern Star]

A quick question about surveys. If you know from a two year old survey that a hull is in perfect condition, and have the ability to tell if the engine and gearbox are in good condition yourself, then what would be the three next things that you would be wanting a surveyor to check?

 

Would you be prepared to buy a boat on the strength of a two year old survey without having it surveyed yourself?

 

Sorry, that's two questions, but you get the gist!

[Paul C]

There's hundreds of little things that a surveyor checks, some of which are farily obvious, some which are fairly obvious once you're familiar with boats, and some which aren't so obvious, and some which you'd never think of checking but the surveyor would. For example, when we had our boat surveyed he picked up on the fact that the gas locker floor was needing attention and the cutlass bearing was worn - the first you might think of checking, the 2nd would require the boat to be out the water and you'd probably miss yourself. Since the gas locker floor was pretty much level with the waterline, it required dry docking again, so it ended up costing a lot of money - which we didn't pay for.

 

If the cost of the faults picked up (which the seller agrees to have done or discounts the cost of the boat by) exceeds the cost of the survey then you have made money by having a survey and subsequently buying that boat. If the costs of the faults picked up don't exceed the survey cost, then its probably a very good boat anyway and you can be reassured that.

 

Hopefully others can cite practical examples of unusual faults which a surveyor can/has picked up, but which you'd never think of checking yourself, partly because you've fallen for the boat and are starting to become emotionally attached to it.

 

Also in our case, due to the age of the boat, our chosen insurers required a survey and valuation - so it needed to be done anyway.

[MtB]

A quick question about surveys. If you know from a two year old survey that a hull is in perfect condition, and have the ability to tell if the engine and gearbox are in good condition yourself, then what would be the three next things that you would be wanting a surveyor to check?

 

Well nothing actually. The whole point of a survey is to check the hull condition. everything else you can see for yourself just like the surveyor can.

 

 

Would you be prepared to buy a boat on the strength of a two year old survey without having it surveyed yourself?

 

Yes. I have never had a survey carried out before buying a boat. I'd rather rely on my wits and take the risk. But I'm weird like that!

 

MtB

[Southern Star]

Thanks for both replies, very contrasting but then that's the nature of any forum I suppose.

 

I did buy my truck (which cost slightly more than the boat in question) purely on my own inspection and I would feel reasonably confident about assessing the overall condition of electrical and mechanical systems on a boat. I was just wondering if t would be sheer madness to buy a boat without having a full pre-purchase survey and I see from Mike's reply that if it is, then at least I wouldn't be the only lunatic in the asylum!

[Paul C]

What is your budget, size and age of boat you're thinking of?

[Alan de Enfield]

From another 'lunatic'

 

Had a survey once (which I've mentioned on here a few times - never again - cost me a fortune)

 

Look at it, buy it, enjoy it.

Your choice and no one elses.

[Southern Star]

What is your budget, size and age of boat you're thinking of?

£22,000, 45', 1995, trad-stern built by Stenson.

[Guest]

A quick question about surveys. If you know from a two year old survey that a hull is in perfect condition, and have the ability to tell if the engine and gearbox are in good condition yourself, then what would be the three next things that you would be wanting a surveyor to check?

 

Would you be prepared to buy a boat on the strength of a two year old survey without having it surveyed yourself?

 

Sorry, that's two questions, but you get the gist!

If I was buying a boat again the only thing I would pay for is a hull condition survey.

 

Anything else any experienced boater or a knowledgable friend can help you with, you might even find one on here.

 

Full surveys are over rated with very little come back but you might need to get one if it's stipulated by your lender.

[Naughty Cal]

We would certainly survey a boat again. The real cost of the survey (£500 which included lifting) was easily offset by the many things he found wrong with a five year old boat.

 

To my mind it just isn't worth the risk not too. Any decent surveyor will easily recoup the cost of the survey with things he finds wrong. This is your bargaining power.

[Paul C]

£22,000, 45', 1995, trad-stern built by Stenson.

 

I hope you realise by now (you've been looking a while, after all) that £22,000 is the bottom end of the market. At that price, there's going to be a number of items which are at, or near, the end of their life. The boat might need £10000 of work even without any hull welding etc (I imagine the hull of that age wouldn't need anything, it would be unusual if it did). And even if it was a £35000, larger boat, the age is a good reason to get a survey.

[Taslim]

If I was buying a boat again the only thing I would pay for is a hull condition survey.

 

Anything else any experienced boater or a knowledgable friend can help you with, you might even find one on here.

 

Full surveys are over rated with very little come back but you might need to get one if it's stipulated by your lender.

Or your insurance conpany..er company.

 

I assume that, like me, Southern Star isn't an expert about boats but if he knows enough to buy a ronking gert truck that seems to serve him well by using his own judgement, a recent (positive) hull survey and him having a good look over the craft would do?

 

When my time comes to buy given that the craft has had a relatively recent hull survey I would only be worried if the craft had been recently blacked. A lick of paint hides many sins!

 

That said I am a mechanical engineer who works testing electronic power control systems & like messing about with engines so can cover most bases.

 

As long as Southern Star goes into it with a 'be it on my own head attitude' and has a VERY good poke around in the boats private parts why not go for it.

[Guest]

Or your insurance conpany..er company.

 

I assume that, like me, Southern Star isn't an expert about boats but if he knows enough to buy a ronking gert truck that seems to serve him well by using his own judgement, a recent (positive) hull survey and him having a good look over the craft would do?

 

When my time comes to buy given that the craft has had a relatively recent hull survey I would only be worried if the craft had been recently blacked. A lick of paint hides many sins!

 

That said I am a mechanical engineer who works testing electronic power control systems & like messing about with engines so can cover most bases.

 

As long as Southern Star goes into it with a 'be it on my own head attitude' and has a VERY good poke around in the boats private parts why not go for it.

Any body is free to pay for a full survey if they wish......of course they are

[Taslim]

Any body is free to pay for a full survey if they wish......of course they are

Yes, quite so and if the buyer is not of a practical disposition and dosn't have a reasonable knowledge of the type of boat they intend to buy they would be foolish not to.

 

Edit to unscramble words.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Taslim

[Bettie Boo]

We knew too little about boats to know what to look for other than really obvious stuff.

 

Our surveyor made a list of about 10 things the seller should put right before we proceeded with the sale, and advised us to keep an eye on our chine weld each time she is out of the water for blackening and consider having a strake welded over it; we would not have realized this without being told.

 

Survey & BSS at the same time was well worth it for us.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Hi Gang,

 

Well (imo) to have or to not have a survey done on a boat is very much a personal Choise, for all sorts of reasons including your own Knowledge, Skills & Competence around boats.

I am firmly in the 'Have a Survey' camp.

Infact I probably go a bit over the top, as I tend to have a Full Survey, Systems Check & Valuation done on most of the boats that I've owned every 4years or so, Normally coinciding

with the BSS & or Hull Blacking or Boat Sale. This in my mind, Not only helps build a picture of the actual Condition & therefore Safty of

the Vessel, But provides 'History' Via the Provable Location, Use, Obvious Care ,

Attention, Upgrades & Replacement of 'Items' a vessel has received over a Prolonged Period of time, Rather like a 'Full Service History' on a

vehicle.

It also gives proof, condition of, & Serial

Numbers of Any and all Equipment on board, & Ensures Proper & Safe installations of same , As

well as providing a 'Real' up to date guide as to the 'Fair market Value' of the vessel that is then comparable to the previous ones you have had

done..And insurance Companies Love it.

It gives ME good 'Peace of Mind' to know that my Safty hooking on points are infact Safe, My Warps,Anchors & Chain are in good order & Fit for purpose, My Life Jackets, Grab Bags, Throwing Lines, LifeRaft, M.O.B Retrieval

System is Practical,Serviceable & ready for use, The list is quite Extensive and Exhausting so will just say Ect Ect.

OH YES, & my Boat is Safe & Fit for Purpose & maintaining it's Catogery Level as well !.

But as I say Each to there own !.

[Neil2]

As others have illustrated, it's not a black and white issue, and paradoxically you might say the need for a survey lessens the further down the market you go.

 

Firstly, let's deal with this hull that is in "perfect" condition. Assuming we're dealing with a boat 20 years plus which will be plastered with layers of blacking and all sorts of crud, the best a surveyor, or anyone else for that matter, can do is scrape down to the metal in a few places and see if there is any serious pitting. The only way you will ever know the true state of a metal hull is by having it grit blasted. So even if you have a favourable surveyors report from the recent past, or even if you have an up to date one, it is still no guarantee you have a sound hull. And surveyors insert all sorts of get out clauses to protect themselves from liability as cases on this forum have illustrated.

 

The cost of a lift out and survey will get you close to £1000 depending on the size/location of the boat. So if you are looking at a boat for under £20k that is a lot of your budget.

 

So there's an argument for saying let's just assume the worst and negotiate the price on that basis, save yourself a grand which will go a long way towards putting things right that a surveyor probably wouldn't have noticed anyway.

 

If you don't believe how slack boat surveyors can be, our boat has been surveyed three times in its life and each one states there is no hatch to the integral water tank. But there is, and right there on the front well deck where you would expect it to be.

 

At the higher end of the market, and this is where I agree with Paul, if you're spending £50-100,000 on a boat you would be stupid not to have it surveyed as the cost is a small fraction of the budget and maybe the surveyor will find something and there will be more stuff to investigate.

 

It is difficult if you are a total novice, but there are other ways. I went through a phase of wooden boat envy a while back but at the time I knew precious little about them. A particular boat caught my eye but I was loath to commission a surveyor costing hundreds of pounds so I found a guy who had been in wooden boat building and repair all his life and asked him if he would have a quick look at it for fifty quid. he agreed and it was enough of an insight to stop me going any further.

 

All you really need is someone with a bit of knowledge but most important a completely dispassionate attitude. The problem with most first time buyers is they are anything but dispassionate and just need someone to keep their feet on the ground.

 

[Ricco1]

I think the question of whether to have a survey done or not is down to 2 things.

 

1/ Your outlook to risk. Some people are frightened by it, others thrive on it.

 

2/ Whether you can afford to put things right if you buy a pig.

 

I love risk, I couldn't live my life without it. I bought my first boat without a survey, and there was no documentation with it. It was cheapish and absolutely perfect in terms of size, layout etc. It's 1998 so I reasoned that the hull would probably be ok for a few years at least. I've had to fix a number of problems, that's OK, hasn't cost too much, and finding them myself, researching how to fix them then carrying out the repairs/ replacements has taught me a fair bit about boats, in a short period of time.

 

I'm about to buy a second boat, built in 1979. This has a survey from 3 years ago so in my mind, there's no need for another.

 

But: I have funds to put a new bottom on a boat, or other serious work, if needed.

 

If you go through life taking out comprehensive insurance on everything, having top notch surveys on everything etc. etc. you just might find yourself in the position of not being able to afford that new boat bottom that's needed, as you've spent all your money allaying your fears.

 

Just my perception of risk, I know it's not 'normal'.

[Bigredbus4468]

It seems to me having not purchased a boat yet, that we are in the must have survey camp. It seems not a lot of money considering the things that could go wrong. I intend pay for my boat buddy when we view our 'new home', and then pay the surveyor and negotiate a FAIR price on outcome.

[Traveller]

We have just bought a 1978/80 Peter Nicholls 43 footer that was last surveyed in 2010 and which had a new boat safety cert issued 2 months ago. We were going to buy without survey as the 2010 one was so good. However I found a leaky side hatch that had allowed a fair bit of water into the bilge at the rear of the boat. I decided therefore to go for a hull survey only which cost £200 for the lift in/out and £250 for the survey. The results were good so you could argue the survey I commissioned was unnecessary - but it does give me peace of mind given the leaky side hatch we discovered.

[Southern Star]

I'm tending now towards thinking that if I do view the boat in question (and I can't do that until August, so it may have sold by then), then I will have it surveyed if the seller will drop his asking price by £1,000 so that will effectively pay for the survey, lift-out and in, and a few hundred quids' worth of work.

 

In general, if a seller is keen to proceed, how long would it typically take to organise a lift-out and survey, and receive the written survey?

[Alan de Enfield]

On a 36 year old boat - I think if you intend insuring it fully-comp you would need a full survey for the insurance.

[Paul C]

It seems to me having not purchased a boat yet, that we are in the must have survey camp. It seems not a lot of money considering the things that could go wrong. I intend pay for my boat buddy when we view our 'new home', and then pay the surveyor and negotiate a FAIR price on outcome.

 

The problem is, if you do a survey before you put a deposit down, someone else might buy the boat. And you can't put a deposit down until you've agreed a price. You need to put a deposit down "subject to survey" and agree what on the survey can alter the price, or get your deposit back if the boat is so bad.

[Neil2]

I'm tending now towards thinking that if I do view the boat in question (and I can't do that until August, so it may have sold by then), then I will have it surveyed if the seller will drop his asking price by £1,000 so that will effectively pay for the survey, lift-out and in, and a few hundred quids' worth of work.

 

In general, if a seller is keen to proceed, how long would it typically take to organise a lift-out and survey, and receive the written survey?

When you decide how much to offer for a particular boat you should take into account the costs of surveying, lift out etc.

 

A surveyor worthy of the name would probably be fully occupied for at least a week ahead, so you should aim for a week to two weeks. The lift out (and the cost) will depend on where it's done and what method they use.

 

The way it normally works is the surveyor will have a good look at the hull and ring you with a verbal report, based on which you decide whether to proceed with a full survey. You would expect to get an emailed report within a day or two and the hard copy/cd within a week.

 

If it is at all possible though, I would arrange to be on site when the boat is lifted out. You will learn an awful lot from going round the hull with the surveyor, and you may then understand why many of us wouldn't bother. It most definitely is not rocket science.

[Traveller]

Had my survey arranged and completed within a week, but it is dependent upon availability re the yard doing the lifting/slipping and the surveyor.

 

There is no harm in trying your approach but the usual way is to make an offer subject to survey. If the vendor is happy with what you are offering then you will pay a deposit and await the outcome of the survey. If that survey shows up defects that need attention then you renegotiate the offer. If you cannot agree a revised price the deal is scrapped and you get back your deposit. BUT you still have to meet the cost of the survey out of your own funds.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Traveller

[Southern Star]

Thanks for the advice, to many points to answer all of them, but I will say that if I do get a survey done, I will definitely be there when it is surveyed, simply because I think it would be worth the money to learn about all of the things that can go wrong.

 

I had a long chat on the phone with the seller last week, and he seemed totally sound, he was a truck driver until he was about 55 when he decided he'd had enough and decided to live on a narrowboat, which is exactly my story, so naturally we chatted as equals. The boat seems good and well maintained, last year he went from Lancashire to Gloucester and back in it and he said it never missed a beat, but now both he and his wife are unable to operate locks.

 

I'm sure we could do business on the strength of a handshake. I do think the price of the boat is fair, in fact if anything I would say he has undervalued it. So unless the survey did flag up major problems I'd be quite happy to agree to the asking price with just a token amount off.

 

But, as mentioned before, I'm not in a position to view or make offers on any boat until mid-August, It may sell before then. As my girlfriend said today, "If it's meant to be it will be, and if it isn't, it isn't".