Outback FM 60 Controller dump load

[Ex- Member]

 

Sorry Baz

 

I meant 2.5 inch I think lol

 

Completely misunderstood your reply Baz, so ignore above.

 

I think you're right I cant seem to find a bush or some kind of reducer anywhere, might be a case of getting one made from a 2.25" blank.

[smileypete]

What voltage does your array run at?

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[Jambo]

You have an inverter on 24/7 don't you? Wouldn't it be easier to get a 230V immersion heater of the correct length and with the right fittings and get a relay that triggers 230V?

[Ex- Member]

You have an inverter on 24/7 don't you? Wouldn't it be easier to get a 230V immersion heater of the correct length and with the right fittings and get a relay that triggers 230V?

 

Not really although I do have a 1kw 240v element fitted. Ok for shore line but it would pull energy from the battery bank rather than diverting directly from the solar panels when the batteries are full, and of course there would be inverter losses.

 

I've now realised these 12v elements with 1" BSP are designed to go in to drain plug inlets at the bottom of tanks. I need to check out if ours is 1" Bsp on our calorifier. I think then it's as simple as fitting it in place of the drain plug and connecting to the Outback with a switch and fuse in line.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Again,, Check with MtB or someone, But how about a cpl of thease -

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lxtqgafrkwwjtqi/IMAG0331.jpg

Something like -

Solar Panels-Regulator/Switch/Timer-110A/Hr Battery-Small say 300w inverter-53016 250w Element £33.99

All the adapters are off the shelf & available !.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[ditchcrawler]

 

Not really although I do have a 1kw 240v element fitted. Ok for shore line but it would pull energy from the battery bank rather than diverting directly from the solar panels when the batteries are full, and of course there would be inverter losses.

 

I've now realised these 12v elements with 1" BSP are designed to go in to drain plug inlets at the bottom of tanks. I need to check out if ours is 1" Bsp on our calorifier. I think then it's as simple as fitting it in place of the drain plug and connecting to the Outback with a switch and fuse in line.

But from my reading you are going to do that anyway. when the battery voltage reaches a predetermined level it will switch on and when it drops to a second predetermined level it will switch off. You solar panels will continue to sling 12 volts DC into the system

[Robbo]

 

Not really although I do have a 1kw 240v element fitted. Ok for shore line but it would pull energy from the battery bank rather than diverting directly from the solar panels when the batteries are full, and of course there would be inverter losses.

 

I've now realised these 12v elements with 1" BSP are designed to go in to drain plug inlets at the bottom of tanks. I need to check out if ours is 1" Bsp on our calorifier. I think then it's as simple as fitting it in place of the drain plug and connecting to the Outback with a switch and fuse in line.

 

Remember you will need to use a Solid State Relay, you then set the Outback to use PWM (or SSR?) dump load. This will turn the relay on/off many times to reduce the load (a normal relay can't cope). The relay can control a AC or a DC element, and the PWM part will reduce the wattage used of the element.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Robbo

[Jambo]

 

Not really although I do have a 1kw 240v element fitted. Ok for shore line but it would pull energy from the battery bank rather than diverting directly from the solar panels when the batteries are full, and of course there would be inverter losses.

 

I've now realised these 12v elements with 1" BSP are designed to go in to drain plug inlets at the bottom of tanks. I need to check out if ours is 1" Bsp on our calorifier. I think then it's as simple as fitting it in place of the drain plug and connecting to the Outback with a switch and fuse in line.

 

The 12V immersion would have to be connected to the batteries as the diversion circuit on the Outback only delivers 200mA. It's really just a trigger circuit and can't deliver much in the way of useful power.

 

It won't actually pull anything out of the battery if the power coming from the panels is greater than the power drawn by the immersion heater.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Jambo

[Ex- Member]

 

The 12V immersion would have to be connected to the batteries as the diversion circuit on the Outback only delivers 200mA. It's really just a trigger circuit and can't deliver much in the way of useful power.

 

It won't actually pull anything out of the battery if the power coming from the panels is greater than the power drawn by the immersion heater.

 

Ok thanks Robbo & Jambo I see that makes sense. Can either of you suggest a decent relay for this.

 

Some details of my set up if it helps.

 

740w of solar panels

 

696ah B/B

 

12v

 

15 gal calorifier

 

Proposed 12v element 100 to 300w another option of 600w

[Robbo]

Proposed 12v element 100 to 300w another option of 600w

 

You can use AC if you wish, and your current one. You will need a AC Solid State Relay, set the Outback to "Diversion:Solid St", this will then reduce the load to it's heart content using PWM. The only downside is that you will need your Inverter switched on for the AC power.

[Paul G2]

Did you get that wiring diagram sorted out yet?

 

In plain English, the relay is just an on/off switch that is electrically activated. In this instance, it opens/closes a + circuit, which is the wire going from the terminal bus bar + through a fuse to the common connection on the relay. The NC on the diagram is the wire going to the load (your immersion heater or whatever). The "coil" on the diagram is the part of the relay that activates the switch. (In the case of a mechanical relay, this is an electromagnet that pulls a bar to make a connection, which is probably why they are calling it a coil.) When it gets power from the charge controller aux wires, it turns the relay switch on, thereby providing power to your auxilliary load.

 

You need an SPST (single pole single throw) relay of the proper specifications/ratings to handle the load you intend as well as the trigger voltage.

 

Sorry if this is too simplistic, I don't mean to insult your intelligence but understanding the basics often simplifies things.

 

Good luck with your project!

[Robbo]

This relay should do the trick.

 

[Ex- Member]

Did you get that wiring diagram sorted out yet?

 

In plain English, the relay is just an on/off switch that is electrically activated. In this instance, it opens/closes a + circuit, which is the wire going from the terminal bus bar + through a fuse to the common connection on the relay. The NC on the diagram is the wire going to the load (your immersion heater or whatever). The "coil" on the diagram is the part of the relay that activates the switch. (In the case of a mechanical relay, this is an electromagnet that pulls a bar to make a connection, which is probably why they are calling it a coil.) When it gets power from the charge controller aux wires, it turns the relay switch on, thereby providing power to your auxilliary load.

 

You need an SPST (single pole single throw) relay of the proper specifications/ratings to handle the load you intend as well as the trigger voltage.

 

Sorry if this is too simplistic, I don't mean to insult your intelligence but understanding the basics often simplifies things.

 

Good luck with your project!

 

Hi Paul, that's not too simplistic at all, I't exactly how I need this sort of stuff explaining so it's very helpful indeed. I do have the wiring diagram from Outback, your intervention will help me now understand it.

 

You can use AC if you wish, and your current one. You will need a AC Solid State Relay, set the Outback to "Diversion:Solid St", this will then reduce the load to it's heart content using PWM. The only downside is that you will need your Inverter switched on for the AC power. You will need a AC Solid State Relay, set the Outback to "Diversion:Solid St", this will then reduce the load to it's heart content using PWM. The only downside is that you will need your Inverter switched on for the AC power.

 

 

Thanks too Robbo and the link, I was expecting something more expensive, so that's good news cheers!

 

When you say You can use AC if you wish, and your current one. Do you mean the 240v element I already have fitted?

 

Our inverter runs 24/7 so that's not an issue.

[Robbo]

 

Thanks too Robbo and the link, I was expecting something more expensive, so that's good news cheers!

 

When you say You can use AC if you wish, and your current one. Do you mean the 240v element I already have fitted?

 

Our inverter runs 24/7 so that's not an issue.

 

Yep, I'll jot up a diagram if you wish.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Robbo

[Ex- Member]

 

Yep, I'll jot up a diagram if you wish.

 

That would really help, you're a gent Robbo I'll gladly send you some beer tokens or return the favour in some way.

[Jambo]

I hadn't appreciated that the Outback could modulate the power to the immersion heater in that way. Very clever.

 

Having a significant AC load cycling rapidly on and off won't put undue stress on the inverter will it?

 

If you can post the diagram here that would be great as this is something I've been toying with lately.

[Ex- Member]

I hadn't appreciated that the Outback could modulate the power to the immersion heater in that way. Very clever.

 

Having a significant AC load cycling rapidly on and off won't put undue stress on the inverter will it?

 

If you can post the diagram here that would be great as this is something I've been toying with lately.

 

If it's doable then I won't have to buy a 12v unit, I did think as you though that a 240v element would probable come on and off much more regularly. We have a 3kw inverter with a 6kw start load, it's been running the auto washing machine without issue so hopefully will cope with a 1kw element, I think a switch might be in order though as switching off the element might be wise when running the washing machine.

 

I'm ok with very basic electrics at both 12v and 240v it's generally not understanding some of the terminology that's frustrates me and of course the maths LOL

[Paul G2]

Something you might want to consider is that using 240V from your inverter is not the same as directly using your excess solar power. When the batteries are full the controller would switch on the relay which would switch on the immersion heater using 240V which would then drain the batteries a bit which would then tell the controller to switch off the relay. That could result in a lot of switching on and off, which isn't really ideal for the kind of load you have.

 

Your controller may have adjustable parameters/limits, for when that aux load switching current goes on and off, which could mitigate the constant cycling to some extent, but that is something you should determine before deciding how you want to wire this puppy. You might find that using your extra inverter would be a better choice, if that inverter can be hooked directly to the power coming from the solar panels.

[Robbo]

 

That would really help, you're a gent Robbo I'll gladly send you some beer tokens or return the favour in some way.

I'll do it when back at work (only on mobile at the mo). It's a simple diagram, the relay is only a switch and you can run it in parallel to a normal switch so still have manual control of heating the water.

 

You can also get pwm load controllers, so if your solar controller doesn't have the option you can add this option.

 

pwm is pulse width modulation, it basically switches the device on and off many times a second (about 255 times), but if it only wants half load it will be 50% off and on. So a 1kw element would be 500watt. This is used in computer fans to control the speed and dimming LEDs, the advantage is that you get full voltage to the device.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Robbo

[Ex- Member]

Something you might want to consider is that using 240V from your inverter is not the same as directly using your excess solar power. When the batteries are full the controller would switch on the relay which would switch on the immersion heater using 240V which would then drain the batteries a bit which would then tell the controller to switch off the relay. That could result in a lot of switching on and off, which isn't really ideal for the kind of load you have.

 

Your controller may have adjustable parameters/limits, for when that aux load switching current goes on and off, which could mitigate the constant cycling to some extent, but that is something you should determine before deciding how you want to wire this puppy. You might find that using your extra inverter would be a better choice, if that inverter can be hooked directly to the power coming from the solar panels.

 

Ok I see. From what you've pointed out I reckon a 12v element would be much more efficient and easier on equipment like batteries and inverter. I can obtain a suitable 12v 100 to 300w element for under £40 and of course the relay which isn't that expensive. I might well have enough 12v cable available as well so the 12v route isn't going to cost too much.

 

If Robbo could do a simple diagram for that as well it would be extremely helpful.

 

Edited, If Robbo

Edited July 1, 2014 by Julynian

[Robbo]

 

Ok I see. From what you've pointed out I reckon a 12v element would be much more efficient and easier on equipment like batteries and inverter. I can obtain a suitable 12v 100 to 300w element for under £40 and of course the relay which isn't that expensive. I might well have enough 12v cable available as well so the 12v route isn't going to cost too much.

 

If Robbo could do a simple diagram for that as well it would be extremely helpful.

 

Edited, If Robbo

The diagrams are basically the same, but you don't benefit from an adaptive load if you use a mechanical relay.

[matty40s]

I see in the simple layman's language is that a 240v immersion element will take as much power as it needs straight away, far more than solar can provide....even with Julyians set up. The 12v immersion element will work from the load function direct, not through inverter.

 

I have run power tools, irons, big amps, daughters hair straighteners etc through my inverter, none has seen the ridiculous power draw that the immersion element tries to draw.

[Paul G2]

You already have a wiring diagram, figure 27.

 

The heater element is what they are calling the "diversion load".

 

However, before you buy a new element and all, you should determine if that extra inverter of yours will work when connected directly to the solar power. It seems to me that sticking with 240V would be your best bet, all things considered.

 

One thing you should consider is that the drain hole you are thinking of using for the 12V element is there to flush/clean accumulated gunk from your calorifier. Because of its location, the 12V element could be immersed in said gunk which would make it rather inefficient.

 

ETA I was typing at the same time as Matty40s. He seems to have answered the question about if the inverter will work directly from the solar power, so it looks like you should stick with 12V.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Paul G2

[Jambo]

Something you might want to consider is that using 240V from your inverter is not the same as directly using your excess solar power. When the batteries are full the controller would switch on the relay which would switch on the immersion heater using 240V which would then drain the batteries a bit which would then tell the controller to switch off the relay. That could result in a lot of switching on and off, which isn't really ideal for the kind of load you have.

 

Your controller may have adjustable parameters/limits, for when that aux load switching current goes on and off, which could mitigate the constant cycling to some extent, but that is something you should determine before deciding how you want to wire this puppy. You might find that using your extra inverter would be a better choice, if that inverter can be hooked directly to the power coming from the solar panels.

 

If the PV is delivering the same or greater wattage as the immersion heater pulls would it drain the batteries? I would have thought the power would flow straight to the immersion heater via the inverter with no reduction in SOC of the battery. If the immersion heater draws more than the PV is supplying then I can see that it would deplete the batteries..

[Robbo]

Hello,

 

Haven't had chance to do the wiring diagrams yet, but had a google last night for further information..

 

This forum thread is well worth a read.

 

One thing I did note is that if you go for the recommended solid state relay route so the Outback can adjust the dump load then the SSR will get hot so a heat sink is a must. Here's a few, but they seem to be on the too cheap side!

 

Here's another source of SSR's - http://www.vertex-qis.co.uk/Body_Pages/SSR/ssr_page.html

Edited July 2, 2014 by Robbo