Power generation. Solar, now wind

[Ricco1]

I've now ordered my solar gear. 3 x 125 watt panels and a 30a MPPT controller.

 

I'd like to avoid running the engine whenever possible, I'm aware that that amount of panels won't provide me with sufficient electricity during the winter months. Limited roof space prevents me from having a larger array.

 

So, I'd also like to fit a wind turbine as well. I moor in some exposed places, there's often plenty of wind.

 

I will have the MPPT controller for the solar but obviously I'll need another for the turbine. I did look to see if I could get a combined one, but those on offer were of insufficient ampage for the solar set up.

 

So my question: are there any potential problems with having 2 separate controllers? I'm thinking particularly of possible overcharging of the batteries. Or any other issues.

 

Many thanks.

[Grace and Favour]

When I was planning our power provision a few years ago, all my research convinced me that the wind turbines were a ridiculously expensive route for very little power, they require substantial wind-speeds to produce any meaningful levels of power, and unless you're moored at the top of a mountain, or in a wind funnel - then they're a waste of effort. And on the rare occasions they do work - the noise reputedly vibrates through one's boat.

 

Though I know there are some folks that like them.

[Phil Ambrose]

When I was planning our power provision a few years ago, all my research convinced me that the wind turbines were a ridiculously expensive route for very little power, they require substantial wind-speeds to produce any meaningful levels of power, and unless you're moored at the top of a mountain, or in a wind funnel - then they're a waste of effort. And on the rare occasions they do work - the noise reputedly vibrates through one's boat.

 

Though I know there are some folks that like them.

A chap who moors near me has a turbine and keeps vibration to a minimum by mounting it on the roof using an aluminium scaffold pole as a mast. The mast is stayed with 2 ally scaffold poles again fixed to the roof the roof mounts custom made and welded. The whole structure is rock solid but as has been said not much in the way of output and we're in the Fens

Phil

[Ricco1]

When I was planning our power provision a few years ago, all my research convinced me that the wind turbines were a ridiculously expensive route for very little power, they require substantial wind-speeds to produce any meaningful levels of power, and unless you're moored at the top of a mountain, or in a wind funnel - then they're a waste of effort. And on the rare occasions they do work - the noise reputedly vibrates through one's boat.

 

Though I know there are some folks that like them.

 

Yes I've read

 

When I was planning our power provision a few years ago, all my research convinced me that the wind turbines were a ridiculously expensive route for very little power, they require substantial wind-speeds to produce any meaningful levels of power, and unless you're moored at the top of a mountain, or in a wind funnel - then they're a waste of effort. And on the rare occasions they do work - the noise reputedly vibrates through one's boat.

 

Though I know there are some folks that like them.

 

Yes I've read several similar pieces. My daily usage is only around 30 amp hours. Many turbines are rated at 500 watts so should be capable of producing 40 amps an hour in perfect conditions. If I could average around 1/2 to 1 amp per hour (on average) I'd be satisfied, as this should make up the shortfall from solar production during the winter months.

 

I also reason that when it's sunny it's often fairly calm wheras when it's cloudy it's often windy.n Hopefully having both devices should enable me to get al least some electricity, during most weather conditions.

 

Anyone here use a wind turbine, could you maybe advise how much you get from it over say an average week?

[joerobo]

I use both. I bought a combi unit but use 2 control units now never had a problem.

[jelunga]

When I was planning our power provision a few years ago, all my research convinced me that the wind turbines were a ridiculously expensive route for very little power, they require substantial wind-speeds to produce any meaningful levels of power, and unless you're moored at the top of a mountain, or in a wind funnel - then they're a waste of effort. And on the rare occasions they do work - the noise reputedly vibrates through one's boat.

 

Though I know there are some folks that like them.

I am with G n F on this one. When we bought our boat the owner said there was a wind generator (Rutland) in the loft of the boatyard thaf had buikt her. He said he found it was of no use. I disbeleived him, took it out of storage, paid Rutland £200 or 300 to refurbish it and used it for two years.

Apart from making you look Eco friendly and all that crap it was useless and a total waste of money. It was mounted on a folding mast some 5 metres above water level. Even in a strong gale it produced little in the way of useable energy.

They need higher masts like in a sailing boat, and a clear wind path around. Sitting in the majority of canals they are not high enough above ground and obstructions like trees buildings etc cause wind eddies that prevent good output.

So for ccing waste of money. But if you are going to Cmung, and can get a big erect pole and have no nearby obstructions you might reciver the cost in 5 or 10 years!

Edited March 22, 2014 by jelunga

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Hi ya,

I love mine,love it.

It regularly and easley out performs my small 120w Solar Panels. And produces pwr whatever the weather,whatever time of day or night. (So long as there is wind or you are moving ofcourse).

Its just a fit & forget power supply as far as my style of cruising is concerned.

Unless there is a Gale,there is minimal vibration. There is a cpl of pictures on the Gallery 'Boats' board that sort of shows my set up. (Nulife 4-2).

I am going to have TWO Rutland 914s on my next boat. To complement my (1000w) Solar installation.

Just checked

Solar producing 0.9a

Wind Generator producing 2.2a

[peterboat]

I had a large one on my last boat it produced good power but the noise was terrible solar for me

 

Peter

[Arthur Brown]

Canals and windy places don't usually come together, the cuttings and trees make wind power less useful than elsewhere. remember that wind farms are usually on high ground and on hundreds of feet of mast, and huge horrid things.

[Ricco1]

Hi ya,

I love mine,love it.

It regularly and easley out performs my small 120w Solar Panels. And produces pwr whatever the weather,whatever time of day or night. (So long as there is wind or you are moving ofcourse).

Its just a fit & forget power supply as far as my style of cruising is concerned.

Unless there is a Gale,there is minimal vibration. There is a cpl of pictures on the Gallery 'Boats' board that sort of shows my set up. (Nulife 4-2).

I am going to have TWO Rutland 914s on my next boat. To complement my (1000w) Solar installation.

Just checked

Solar producing 0.9a

Wind Generator producing 2.2a

 

Do you regularly get 2.2 a?

 

I'm on the Macclesfield, some of my favoured mooring spots are rarely anything but windy.

 

The cost isn't a problem, Ebay one for maybe £250 with controller, bit of wire, scaffolding pole to mount the thing on, bit of welding.

 

I'm aware that it will take some time to get the cost back, versus cost of diesel to run the engine. The cost of diesel is very low on mine, I get close to 3 hours on a litre, the engine being a 500cc twin. But eventually, if I run the engine for 2- 2 1/2 hours every day, the engine will wear out. Then it's £5000 for a new engine. I'd like to avoid that for as long as possible so to me a £350 investment is money well spent.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

My view is,

If or how long it will take to get your money back,isn't the way to think about it.

It's about having as many different ways of producing power as possible,and then managing that harvest effectively so you don't waste an amp.

But that's just my view.

My wind generator regularly gives an average of approximately 15 / 25a into the Batteries over a 24hr period. Obviously a lot more in the Autumn

and Winter.

 

Now I know that doesn't sound a lot, But my little Solar installation probably only gives an ave of 8 / 15a into the Batteries,over a 8 / 10 hr period.

 

But Collectively, I get an ave of approximately 25 /40 amp into my Batteries in a 24 Hour period that goes a long way to meet the power requirements of my Fridge,Water Pump and lights at a guess.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[Ricco1]

My view is,

If or how long it will take to get your money back,isn't the way to think about it.

It's about having as many different ways of producing power as possible,and then managing that harvest effectively so you don't waste an amp.

But that's just my view.

My wind generator regularly gives an average of approximately 15 / 25a into the Batteries over a 24hr period. Obviously a lot more in the Autumn

and Winter.

 

Now I know that doesn't sound a lot, But my little Solar installation probably only gives an ave of 8 / 15a into the Batteries,over a 8 / 10 hr period.

 

But Collectively, I get an ave of approximately 25 /40 amp into my Batteries in a 24 Hour period that goes a long way to meet the power requirements of my Fridge,Water Pump and lights at a guess.

 

Yes I exaggerated the importance of cost pay back. I just want to run the engine as little as possible. If getting the means to do this is affordable, I'll do it.

 

My fridge is gas so with my 375 watts of solar together with a wind turbine, I should hopefully be able to avoid running my engine other than very rarely.

 

What wattage is your turbine, what make?

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

It's an old but reliable Rutland 913.I think it's approximately 250 / 300w ish.

But will be getting two of the new 914i which give out much more power,for same wind speed.(I think 450w ish each).

You either love them or hate them I suppose.

Bit when it comes to producing power in this country,I will wager we get more windy Hours per year,than Sunny Hours per year.

 

Note

Solar 1.2a

Wind 2.0a

At the moment.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[Ex- Member]

If or how long it will take to get your money back,isn't the way to think about it.

 

 

Good point and other factors come in to play. With such a charging system the trickle charge element which is kinder to batteries can also be taken into account. And to produce Also if you average 25a per day, that would still cost in fuel. Even our wee Honda genny will burn about 50p worth of fuel to generate 25a so you are saving around £3.50 per week on fuel or £182 pa

 

The Rutland is a pricey bit of kit though if you want one of the new MPPT controlled untis the 914i, I really wouldn't pay that much even for alleged better performance. What it does mean though is that there's now a lot of cheap 913's on ebay now. I'm tempted to have a punt on one for next winter. We currently have 740w of solar and haven't needed additional charging now for 2 weeks, hopefully it will be like that till end October like last year.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Dead right,

It might drive down the cost of the 913s !.

Another case of eBay is your friend.

[junior]

Paul, you are in a costal marina are you not? Would that make a difference?

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Well my Usual Mooring is just under 2 mile inland,and Yep,I do a bit of sea cruising,and ofcourse it performs best in open areas,Absolutely right Junior.

But at the moment for instance, I'm @ Arundel on the River Arun, Approximately 6 miles inland, (nearer 8 by River) and that has been the readings I've given earlier in this thread (by the way Sol 0.5,,,WG 0.9 at the moment). Before I was at Wateringbury on the Upper River Medway some 20 Miles well inland, Before going to Rainham on the Lower River Medway, I have to say it seems to have performed equally as well on all the Canals, Rivers, & Estuaries that I've been lucky enough to have explored over the years as well.

It's like anything els,solar works best in the sun,wind works best in the wind.

I'm not trying to sell WGs, just saying they work for me,and my style of Cruising.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[jodansgang]

Well I'm about to take a punt on an old 913!

 

For me, solar was rubbish-ish during the winter.

We have 190w total solar (panels x2) and are about to add another 95w. Running all through an MPTT regulator.

Although, having added 3 new 110ah lead acid bats a few weeks ago and with the sun now blazing, we have an excess of power available.

 

I'm gunna punt on the 913 because I am curious and (secretly inside) I am rather hoping it actually works.

[madcat]

I always wanted one but the price put me off.

[jodansgang]

I hope to spend a great deal on it!

[Justme]

 

But my little Solar installation probably only gives an ave of 8 / 15a into the Batteries,over a 8 / 10 hr period.

 

 

 

I'm guessing you mean 8 / 15 ah over a 8 to 10 hour period & not 8 to 15 a over a 8 to 10 hour period?

 

One would give 8 to 15ah per day & the other 64 to 150ah per day.

(which your system could not produce in the uk)

 

If your 125w solar is only giving you 8 to 15ah per day in summer you have a problem or a very substandard install location.

 

Just from the numbers I would expect you to get 60 to 80ah per day in summer.

 

Winter you would be looking at 0-10ah on average.

 

Your array is 10% of the size of mine & the above stats rough numbers are right on the button for real world performance.

 

Over a year on average you should be getting 25ah per day. Thats over 9000ah in a year.

 

 

Just had a thought, are you cruising during the major part of the solar day? If so then a high voltage alt could be fooling your solar controller into thinking the bats are full & not doing anything.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Justme

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Hi ya Justme

The figures was in March !, Hardly Summer as you state.

Well, as I've suggested, the most important factor (in my installation anyway) is in fact the SOC of the Batteries, and how much the controller is actually letting through as a result.

At the moment I'm getting

Sol 1.1A Steady.

Wind Gen 0.0A

SOC 100%.

 

Just turned my immersion heater on for 15 / 20 min am now getting

Sol 5.9A Steady

Wind Gen 0.8A Gusting 1.3A

SOC 99%. Falling 98%.as you would expect.

It's a supply and demand thing.

https://db.tt/WkiFue5A

Edited May 18, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[Justme]

I get that full bats can limit the total energy collected, I live off grid so fully understand how that can affect things.

 

My point was that you seem to be rubbishing solar & bigging up wind when you are not making it a fair fight.

 

Comparing a 125 watt panel to a wind turbine of I think you said 250-300 watts is hardly sporting.

 

Also the output will depend on the settings of each controller. If you have the solar set so that it comes out of bulk at 14.2 & the wind set to 14.3 the solar will back off first & give less. Some of the cheaper controllers cant have the set points changed & even worse some have the fixed points set far too low.

 

As you solar is under performing by a huge amount your data (for what ever reason) is not valid for others to base their purchases on.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

I get that full bats can limit the total energy collected, I live off grid so fully understand how that can affect things.

 

My point was that you seem to be rubbishing solar & bigging up wind when you are not making it a fair fight.

 

Comparing a 125 watt panel to a wind turbine of I think you said 250-300 watts is hardly sporting.

 

Also the output will depend on the settings of each controller. If you have the solar set so that it comes out of bulk at 14.2 & the wind set to 14.3 the solar will back off first & give less. Some of the cheaper controllers cant have the set points changed & even worse some have the fixed points set far too low.

 

As you solar is under performing by a huge amount your data (for what ever reason) is not valid for others to base their purchases on.

NO Not at all 'Rubbishing Solar' far

from it infact. & I don't even know what you're on about regarding the Solar panel of 125w and controller set up or settings, voltage ect,

The Controller I've got ?.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xy6bqszm0e769ph/IMAG0162.jpg

This does both my Solar and Wind and has no manual settings.as you suggest !. Yep, possibly inefficient.

 

As for my Solar Panels. I've got 4x30w =120w panels (not a 125w Panel), and then they are actually Amorphous !, So not the most efficient Type in Solar output, but do tend to give an output for longer in a day albeit at a lower output as they are designed for low light conditions !. And my understanding of them is, That in the UK, in absolute ideal, Laboratory Perfect Conditions, I would only ever get something like 10A from them, in the real world, Probably more around the 8A mark !.

So getting Close to 6A, (as I said in post 22 today) Whilst laid pretty flat on my roof, Coverd With Sea Salt Stains & Facing North West,at 11:52am, with a 98% SOC in my Battery Bank, I don't think is bad at all.

 

If you re read my post 7, I said, I would even upgrade my panels to 1000w & 'Complement' my Solar with 2 wind gen on MY NEW boat ect ect. Hardly a 'Rubbishing' statement for Solar is it!.

 

And as for this fair fight thing you've got going on, I honestly didn't know it was a fight or competition. I was just offering UNBIASED information on MY installations, using MY results, and bear in mind, you actually based your earlier post, using data supplied 2 months ago in March that had a very different weather system (Check your post Number 21) & a shorter 'Daylight Day' & at that time it was quite possible that on Average Wind was kicking Solars Arse !. If you take today's figures, as I quoted in post 22, That Actually quite clearly shows Solar Kicking Winds arse, Again Hardly 'rubbishing Solar' is it. It's odd you should have a problem with that !.

 

Surely the more 'Fit & Forget' ways you have of getting ANY free power has got to be good !.

And as I also suggest, my small solar

installation isn't 100% effective due to it's mounting position, see pics, but I find it acceptable because of my particular style of cruising, Anchoring, Mooring and General boat use. I am therefore happy to suffer the Power losses from solar (probably some 15-20% at a guess) as I don't want to be Raising, Lowering Poles or messing about with the panels 3 or 4 times a day, Or have them mounted in such a way that they become a Deck Hazard !. I want to Fit & Forget. Where as again in my situation the wind gen just 'Seeks the Wind' 24hrs a day,

regardless of Weather/Day or Night. So in my situation my combined Solar & Wind installation has worked for me, over the years I have had them installed.

And unlike some people, I certainly wouldn't suggest or presume anyone base there decisions to purchase such equipment on MY installation, or anyone else's for that matter, there are just so many variables to consider. Not least Cruising Style, Boat Set up, & Power usage,storage ect.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[Justme]

I am sorry that my reply was a little blunt. Note to self dont post when you have a stinking headache.

 

I must have got the 125 watts from the opening post of this thread. Not that 5 watts will make much difference.

(also worth noting is that your type of panels come very under rated {IE your 120 watts could produce about 140 watts when new} as they loose about 15% quite quickly & then the rate of loss slows right down over its design life, the other types loose output in a more linear way)

 

Thats control does go a long way to explaining your solar performance (plus you description of the installation conditions). Its main design function is for the turbine. Plus its a PWM controller so that wont help either. I wonder if it priorities the wind power allowing it to produce as much as it can & then only allowing the solar to top that up to the controllers max rated current or the current the bats will accept.

 

One thing I would like to mention is efficiency. It matters not if your panels are 1% or 99% efficient. You will still make the same amount of energy per watt. The only thing efficiency affects it the size of the panel. A 120 watt 10% array will produce the same as a 120 watt 20% one. It will just be double the size.