Red/White Diesel is there a technical difference

[alan_fincher]

Good grief Malcolm couldn't you give us a bit of a synopsis, it wouuld take hours to get through that lot.

I think if you plough through them they are largely confirming the earliest posts in this thread, namely that ULSD "road diesel" has a very much, (hugely), lower sulphur content, and a higher cetane rating than "red".

 

Some of the data sheets show both the guaranteed maximum sulphur content and the guaranteed minimum cetane rating, but also add what "typical" values to expect. For at least one of the ULSDs listed, the typical sulphur content is still higher than "Mick and Pauline" suggest, so I don't know if that means that some suppliers ULSD has more sulphur than others, or just whether some of these data sheets are not fully up to date with the spec of product now being delivered.

 

Incidentally, John,

 

In other threads you previously expressed doubts that modern road diesel and "red" actually differed by any more than the added dye..... Have we collectively managed to convince you now ?......

[Mick and Pauline]

Some of the data sheets show both the guaranteed maximum sulphur content and the guaranteed minimum cetane rating, but also add what "typical" values to expect. For at least one of the ULSDs listed, the typical sulphur content is still higher than "Mick and Pauline" suggest, so I don't know if that means that some suppliers ULSD has more sulphur than others, or just whether some of these data sheets are not fully up to date with the spec of product now being delivered.

 

Hi Alan,

 

Yes the spec sheets are a little out of date, the date they are showing are about three years old. The sulphur spec in road fuels was 50ppm max in 2003 but the road fuel spec for Derv and motor spirit have both dropped to 10ppm max sulphur in 2005.

 

M&P.

[John Orentas]

Incidentally, John,

 

In other threads you previously expressed doubts that modern road diesel and "red" actually differed by any more than the added dye..... Have we collectively managed to convince you now ?......

 

Hi Alan.

 

No you haven't really. I know more about cake making than I do of the manufacture of petrochemicals, but the question that keeps coming back to haunt me is 'Why should they be different' and what reason would the manufacturing companies have to make them different. I could well believe that the departments that market the fuels are totally isolated from one-another or that the specifications are published at different times or they may well put a different emphasis on the qualities for commercial reasons.

 

All this about varying lubricating qualities, I have to say I am very reluctant to believe any of that and certainly I have never heard it mentioned away from this forum. I think much of all this came from the problems with one of the heating systems. Someone on here caught the maker out, when it was claimed that the products did not like red diesel, it turned out that thousands of units of earth moving and other plant equipment have been fitted with identical heaters for donkeys years and suffered no problems. They later said that what they really meant was that the heaters are not suitable for continuous use, not what I would want to hear if I relied upon one.

 

I know nothing about fuels but I do know something about engines, diesels are not sniffy or temperamental about fuel or anything else, thats why this type of engine is now universal for use in all kinds of arduous conditions all over the world and they have been for a century. So don't try to pamper your engines they don't need it and won't appreciate it.

[Yoda]

The basic reply to your question is .....cost.

 

Also John, I would not run my high spec. turbo diesel car engine on red diesel for very long.

[John Orentas]

The basic reply to your question is .....cost.

 

Also John, I would not run my high spec. turbo diesel car engine on red diesel for very long.

 

 

Well don't then!

 

Very impressed that you have a posh car though.

Edited December 11, 2006 by John Orentas

[paradime]

Don't let's miss the whole point of this. From what has been said, according to the EU, the UK could levy lower duty rates that the road diesel if the Red Diesel is of different quality which from the discussion so far, it clearly is ??

[Tony Brooks]

Hi David,

 

I will try to help with the two fuel's but I think maybe Tony Brooks may be able help with whether today's Derv will work with the vintage engines.

 

Years ago before the push for all things "green" the two fuels were not that far apart, in fact the refinery I worked for, downgraded Derv to Dyed Gasoil to save expense on building new tanks for Dyed Gasoil. We just injected the dye into the Derv during loading and sold it as Dyed Gasoil at a slight loss. So at this point, there was no problem with using either fuel, the only difference was to the end user. The Dyed Gasoil was cheaper because of the reduced tax but could not be used by road vehicles.

 

Now in recent years and more to the point, the present Derv fuel is now a lot different because of the environmental pressure, the sulphur content of Derv is between Nil > 10 ppm. While Dyed Gasoil has stayed at a 1000 ppm so the main difference is in the sulphur content, so the question for Tony is would the reduced sulphur in Derv effect the vintage engines.

 

There are small improvements to Derv with certain chemicals added to improve it's use in the modern engine, they now add cetane improvers for fuel economy, a anti waxing agent in winter to keep the fuel thin and flowing. The Derv fuel is a lighter density fuel because it is now blended from low sulphur stock using a lot of Kerosene.

M&P.

 

 

This is my answer as I understand it, but the chemists may have other ideas.

 

I am sure modern low sulpher diesel will work in all diesel engines and in many cases may make them sound marginally less "diesely" because of their slightly higher cetain rating (the ease with which the stuff ignites) should reduce diesel knock.

 

From the data sheets that a Total agent sent me and as long as what we end up buying is actually DERV (rather than non-dyed gas oil) it would appear that DERV has a slightly higher calorific value. That might give a very marginal improvement in performance or economy - but I expect you will notice no difference.

 

My only concern is the loss of sulpher (should make the sump oil and exhaust gasses less corrosive) MIGHT reduce the lubricating ability of the fuel. The stuff seems slippery enough to me so I expect there will be few, if any problems, but the wear rate in the pump and injectors may increase a bit, but again I doubt the average boaters will be able to detect it. I can not see any imidiate problems.

 

Overall I think the marginal benefits will outweigh any problems.

 

I have far more concerns over vegitable based bio-diesels because of possible reactions with "rubber" seals and also because many systems mix a caustic agent with the raw vegitable oil that has to be netralised and scrubbed out. We get enough water in the fuel tanks without risking adding a strong alcaline to it.

 

Tony Brooks

[Supermalc]

Good grief Malcolm couldn't you give us a bit of a synopsis, it wouuld take hours to get through that lot.

 

Well I didn't want you being bored John

 

Actually I was trying to find the difference in 35sec heating oil, and Gas Oil/Red Diesel (if any). Heating oils are only taxed at 5% VAT, whereas Red is 17.5%.

 

28sec heating oil, which is kerosene (I thought it different) will make diesel by adding just over half a cupful of engine oil per gallon. Because heating oil is subsidised this makes it the cheapest to use. I KNOW it costs around £1.30 a gallon, instead of £2.00 for red (I assume before VAT) because a friend has just bought some at his sisters farm, and I was there when he paid her for his share of the delivery. There is a tank of 'paraffin' (28sec heating oil) and a tank of red diesel.

 

 

I've known for a long time kerosine was 'smoky paraffin' but never bothered to find out, or realise why until today.............we live and learn ....well until I forget

[Tony Brooks]

Hi Alan.

 

No you haven't really. I know more about cake making than I do of the manufacture of petrochemicals, but the question that keeps coming back to haunt me is 'Why should they be different' and what reason would the manufacturing companies have to make them different. I could well believe that the departments that market the fuels are totally isolated from one-another or that the specifications are published at different times or they may well put a different emphasis on the qualities for commercial reasons.

 

All this about varying lubricating qualities, I have to say I am very reluctant to believe any of that and certainly I have never heard it mentioned away from this forum. I think much of all this came from the problems with one of the heating systems. Someone on here caught the maker out, when it was claimed that the products did not like red diesel, it turned out that thousands of units of earth moving and other plant equipment have been fitted with identical heaters for donkeys years and suffered no problems. They later said that what they really meant was that the heaters are not suitable for continuous use, not what I would want to hear if I relied upon one.

 

I know nothing about fuels but I do know something about engines, diesels are not sniffy or temperamental about fuel or anything else, thats why this type of engine is now universal for use in all kinds of arduous conditions all over the world and they have been for a century. So don't try to pamper your engines they don't need it and won't appreciate it.

 

 

 

Remember the low lead 4 star thing, there certainly was a lubrication angle there.

 

I have seen reduced lubrication discussed in technical journals like the IRTE magazine, but not of late.

 

I think we have had some red herrings when people talk about lubrication the cams on inline and single element pumps. I have yet to see any that are not lubricated by oil. Either a feed from the main oil gallery or from the pump's own "sump", and that oil should also lubricate the roller cam followers this type of pump uses. The Japs are still fittinmg this type of pump, so I think their designs must be capable of running on low sulpher fuel. Its the old Simms, Bosch & CAV types that give me a little unease. Having said that I have seen MOD spec inline pumps that will run on petrol with added lube oil and that is definately poor lubricating stuff.

 

I first met a DPA pump on an early 1960s or late 50s BMC 2.2 andi am sure low sulpher fuel had not been even thought about then.

 

The inline and single element pumps need the fuel to lubricate a sliding action whilstDistributor (DPx) and rotary pumps also use it to lubricate rotary movement. On the DPA pump in an aluminium housing.

 

I do not think we need to get too worried about the fuel, but we do need to keep our ears to the ground just in case there is a problem. I can not see it would hurt to put a small quantity of lube oil in the tank if any one is particularly worried.

 

For the chap who asked the Perkins 410-X uses a DPA pump.

 

Tony Brooks

[Yoda]

My only concern is the loss of sulpher (should make the sump oil and exhaust gasses less corrosive) MIGHT reduce the lubricating ability of the fuel. The stuff seems slippery enough to me so I expect there will be few, if any problems, but the wear rate in the pump and injectors may increase a bit, but again I doubt the average boaters will be able to detect it. I can not see any imidiate problems.

 

Tony Brooks

 

Sulphur does not lubricate the fuel system or engine. It is in the fuel and it costs more money to reduce the amount of it. Some crude contains less sulphur and is sold at higher rates per barrel.

[Supermalc]

I do not think we need to get too worried about the fuel, but we do need to keep our ears to the ground just in case there is a problem. I can not see it would hurt to put a small quantity of lube oil in the tank if any one is particularly worried.

 

Tony Brooks

 

Exactly right Tony. Other than cost, if anyone has doubts, just add a small quantity of engine oil per gallon, which is all we need to know.

 

And we won't have to bother changing for at least a couple of years, maybe ten. Also it could be worse as I could have a large twin diesel mobo that used upwards of 20 gallons an hour (not that I'd want one, to be honest)

Edited December 11, 2006 by Supermalc

[Mick and Pauline]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the reply and your view on the two fuels.

 

Hi Paradime,

Yes the government need only to bring the pleasure boat fuel tax up to the EU requirement. I have read it on here that someone thought it to be a 20p per litre increase, would this make it 70p per litre. At this price HM Customs would require some form of marking to prevent motorist from using it illegal. Why not colour it with a red dye ???.

 

Hi John,

The two fuels are different because they are produced for two different markets and use two different EU / UK product specifications. These fuel specs must be met by each oil company but it can decide how it wishes to blend each fuel to met the spec. There are winter and summer specs with change over dates set for the UK, one in the Spring and the other in the Autumn.

 

It cost more to produce Derv because the spec requires the sulphur to be less than 10ppm max and the red diesel spec is 2000ppm max. To compensate for the extra cost of making Derv, the UK government have reduced the fuel tax on Low Sulphur Derv to make it's price acceptable on the forecourts.

 

The marketing departments at the major oil companies keep a very close eye on their competitors, their out station managers send in their local area forecourt prices to head office so pricing can be checked. This includes supermarkets because supermarket chains are contracted to a major oil company for their supplies and will effect the local pricing.

 

So with the fuel spec set, pricing set by the local area this only leaves advertising to make a difference by saying their fuel is better for your engine, you will get more miles to the gallon etc.

 

M&P.

[Theo]

A mechanic friend of mine has told me that Vauxhall diesel injection systems suffer from continued use supermarket "cheap" fuel - apparently the lack of lubricating properties causes sticking of components in the diesel injection system.

He recomended filling up with at least one tank of good stuff every 3 tank fulls - or as been suggested adding some oil to the fuel in the tank.

 

I have oil fired central heating at home - can this be used as a fuel alternative ??? - I have a very large tank full and now got to thinking........

 

The engine should function but I will leave it to others to give their opinions as to the effect on the engine.

 

Nick

[John Orentas]

Quote: Paradime.

 

"Don't let's miss the whole point of this. From what has been said, according to the EU, the UK could levy lower duty rates that the road diesel if the Red Diesel is of different quality which from the discussion so far, it clearly is ??"

 

I think you are probably wrong on both counts there. The thread has nothing to do with duty rates and I still have seen no evidence that red / white are significantly different in any way.

 

Lubrication really is not an issue with diesels, let us not forget that like most other engine types they are pressure lubricated, the extra lubrication from the fuel is just an added bonus. We should not get too carried away either with sulphur content, why should that do anything to harm your engine. My mother used to make me eat the vile stuff when I was a child "cleans the blood" she would say. Perhaps it will clean your oil.

Edited December 12, 2006 by John Orentas

[WJM]

wrong thread - moved!

Edited December 12, 2006 by WJM

[NB Alnwick]

I think we have had some red herrings when people talk about lubrication the cams on inline and single element pumps. I have yet to see any that are not lubricated by oil. Either a feed from the main oil gallery or from the pump's own "sump", and that oil should also lubricate the roller cam followers this type of pump uses.

 

Tony,

 

It is not a 'red herring' - if you look at our earlier post on this thread you will see why.

 

Our C.A.V. BPE type pump certainly has its own sump but the plunger bores are lubricated by the fuel oil and inevitably a quantity of this finds its way into the sump - over a an extended period of running the lubricating oil in the sump becomes diluted with fuel. That is why we always add half a dozen squirts from the oil can to the pump's sump as part of our pre-starting routine. We had a bill of £1,150 for repairing the damaged cam and would recommend that anyone with a similar fuel pump (also fitted to the Lister JP series engines) should follow the same starting routine even if not using the low sulpher fuel.

 

The DPA pump was originally developed to meet the requirements of an international market - including rough agricultural service. What we currently describe as low-sulphur fuels may not have been around in the 1960s but inferior and unpredictable fuel quality was certainly taken into consideration during its development.

[nichimyo]

"Green" diesel (that you put in your car) is ULSD (ultra-low sulphur diesel).

 

The term DERV (short for "diesel engined road vehicle") is also used in the UK as a synonym for diesel fuel. (Diesel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - en.wikipedia.org/... )

 

The Treasury obviously thinks there's a difference between road diesel and red diesel:

 

Budget 2003: press notices

 

9 April 2003

PROTECTING THE ENVIRONMENT

Chancellor Gordon Brown today announced further steps in the Government’s strategy to protect the environment, whilst continuing to ensure the competitiveness of UK industry.

Economic Secretary, John Healey said:

 

“This Budget underlines the Government's commitment to sustainable development. Given the current global economic downturn, we have today announced some important tax freezes to help maintain business competitiveness. However, the Government is committed to tackling environmental problems, by ensuring the polluter pays and introducing new incentives for more environmentally-friendly behaviour”.

 

Measures announced today to balance environmental responsibility with UK competitiveness include:

 

*deferred annual revalorisation of the main road fuel duties until 1 October 2003, owing to the recent high and volatile oil prices, as a result of military conflict in Iraq;

*a new duty differential for sulphur-free fuels from 1 September 2004, of 0.5 pence per litre relative to the rates for ultra-low sulphur fuels, to encourage the early introduction and take up of these fuels;

*an increase in the duties for rebated gas oil (red diesel) and fuel oil – which have higher levels of sulphur than road fuels – by one penny per litre above revalorisation, from today;

*the introduction of a new duty incentive for bioethanol used as a road fuel, set at 20 pence per litre below the prevailing rate for sulphur-free petrol, from 1 January 2005;

*a new lower carbon dioxide VED band from 1 May 2003 for the most environmentally-friendly cars. Alongside the standard revalorisation and the rounding, an increase in the VED rate for cars and vans by £5; this increases the VED differential between the least and the most polluting cars to £110 per annum;

.......

 

Budget 2003: 04 - www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/...

[Tony Brooks]

Tony,

 

It is not a 'red herring' - if you look at our earlier post on this thread you will see why.

 

Our C.A.V. BPE type pump certainly has its own sump but the plunger bores are lubricated by the fuel oil and inevitably a quantity of this finds its way into the sump - over a an extended period of running the lubricating oil in the sump becomes diluted with fuel. That is why we always add half a dozen squirts from the oil can to the pump's sump as part of our pre-starting routine. We had a bill of £1,150 for repairing the damaged cam and would recommend that anyone with a similar fuel pump (also fitted to the Lister JP series engines) should follow the same starting routine even if not using the low sulpher fuel.

 

The DPA pump was originally developed to meet the requirements of an international market - including rough agricultural service. What we currently describe as low-sulphur fuels may not have been around in the 1960s but inferior and unpredictable fuel quality was certainly taken into consideration during its development.

 

 

I think you will find that one regular service procedure is to drain the little "sump" in the pump and pour in new oil. Some even haave a little dipstick on them & others are filled with a given quantity of oil.

 

Tony Brooks

[David]

Hi Graham

Heard a whisper from our mutual friend he may have found you a camshaft.

 

Now the vintage question you tried to answer, below is an extract from another society forum who had to use low sulpher white diesel, not only lub problems but leakage as low sulpher is very invasive, note the pumps mentioned CAV BPE but i have seen other items with the same complaints with other pumps.

 

 

From Chris Hatton (Brereton Motor Services):

 

I wonder if I could add some comments about fuel and smoke on diesel-engined vehicles.

 

As a bus operator of rather old vehicles and 'heritage' vehicles we have already had this burden of low sulphur diesel placed upon us. The main practical problem appears to be its ability to leak from every available joint in the fuel system. Fuel injection pumps appear to be a problem mainly through external seals in connection with the fuel rack - e.g. element screws, delivery valve holder seals, etc.

 

However, normal replacement of these seals by a skilled fuel pump engineer cures those. The almost searching qualities of the LS fuel can cause internal leaks in the injection pump, down the elements themselves. We changed over to LS fuel six months ago and this has caused me to change two injection pumps because of leakage.

 

Those were both on buses fitted with CAV BPE pumps which I believe are fitted to AEC railcar engines. Normally, internal leakage of a railcar injection pump can be seen as an unnaturally high level of oil/fuel mix leaking from the 'pigtail' pipe fitted to the side of the pump. On Leyland 680 engines the injection pump is externally filled with oil and its level should be checked regularly. Either lack of lub or contamination with diesel will cause damage to the pump and can cause unsteady governing and also even shutting down of the engine when engaging a gear.

 

So anyone could be unlucky and have more problems than just extra cost for the fuel.

david

[Space_Cowboy]

At the risk of High Jacking this thread - I have a C.A.V BPE type pump fitted to my JP - is there a drain plug on the sump, I do not have a dipstick - just a plug on the side of the pump which I am assuming is the level plug.

 

I want to drain the oil and re-fill, what type of oil should I use - same as the engine ? SAE20 or 30.

 

Thanks

[David]

At the risk of High Jacking this thread - I have a C.A.V BPE type pump fitted to my JP - is there a drain plug on the sump, I do not have a dipstick - just a plug on the side of the pump which I am assuming is the level plug.

 

I want to drain the oil and re-fill, what type of oil should I use - same as the engine ? SAE20 or 30.

 

Thanks

Hi

Some had a level on the front (side with the cover plate), the one on the back (side nearest the engine) is a level and over flow to lose excess leakage and usuall have a dip stick in a filler hole on the front.

Fill with sae 30 same as engine

you can get the oil out by stealing the little plunger type pump from the top of the hand wash stuff women seem to buy these days and use that down any oil filler hole. "Tip" dont put it back on the hand wash stuff full of oil.

david

Edited December 13, 2006 by David

[Space_Cowboy]

Hi

Some had a level on the front (side with the cover plate), the one on the back (side nearest the engine) is a level and over flow to lose excess leakage and usuall have a dip stick in a filler hole on the front.

Fill with sae 30 same as engine

you can get the oil out by stealing the little plunger type pump from the top of the hand wash stuff women seem to buy these days and use that down any oil filler hole. "Tip" dont put it back on the hand wash stuff full of oil.

david

 

 

Excellent - thanks

[NB Alnwick]

 

The above is an exploded diagram of the BPE type pump - this is a four cyl version but the 2/3 and 6 cyl versions are all similar. The dipstick/filler for the oil sump is item 60. There is an overflow/drain off at the rear so it is not shown in the photograph.

 

These pumps were originally designed back in 1927 when diesel fuel was much heavier

 

With all modern diesel fuel, it is necessary to maintain correct viscosity of the oil in the sump (we do it by adding SAE 30 oil as part of our start-up routine) this is because the fuel being 'thinner' will leak into the sump and dilute the oil.

[Liam]

I want to drain the oil and re-fill, what type of oil should I use - same as the engine ? SAE20 or 30.

Thanks

 

My Uncle also has a JP (2) in his Large Northwich, and he normally uses SAE30 in the summer, and SAE20 in the winter, as it's thinner he's able to hand start it easier.

[Space_Cowboy]

Thanks for all the information - I think you just saved me from a damaged pump. Drained the sump last night as suggested with a soap plunger (worked a treat), only to find it was mainly diesel - or very thin oil with lots of Diesel. I don't think its' ever been change in the previous ownership. Should have realised as the engine oil strainer had never been removed either (nut was still painted) - and judging by the level of sludge the sump has never been cleaned......engine is now running a lot happier and has a smooth tick-over (apart from the clicking C.A.V pump coupling).

 

I also managed to download a C.A.V manual and convert it into a .pdf file if anyone wants a copy - PM me.

 

Does anyone know where I can buy a replacement C.A.V pump coupling - looks like it is made from Bakerlite - this is worn and the clicking is annoying me now.

 

Thanks again for the excellent info.

Edited December 14, 2006 by Space_Cowboy