Marine gearbox attached to BMC 1.5

[pete.i]

 

Hi all

I was wondering if anyone can identify this gearbox for me. I have bought this engine and gearbox and I hope to refurb the engine. I do not want the gearbox but if it is any good then I will be, possibly, looking to offload it at a later date.

 

Thanks

 

Pete

[cereal tiller]

 

Hi all

I was wondering if anyone can identify this gearbox for me. I have bought this engine and gearbox and I hope to refurb the engine. I do not want the gearbox but if it is any good then I will be, possibly, looking to offload it at a later date.

 

Thanks

 

Pete

Looks like a Newage mechanical box,direct drive

 

CT

[Tony Brooks]

Its a B type box without a reduction so its 1:1 direct drive. There is a thread on here about them (probably more than one). It has adjustments for the ahead clutch and the reverse brake band. From memory it does not use a drive plate so if you are fixing a modern box onto the existing flywheel you may have to drill& tap the flywheel

 

I doubt spairs are available so it may have a little value.

[RLWP]

If you are looking to offload it for not very much money, I am interested

 

Richard

[pete.i]

Morning all and thanks for the replies.

 

Richard you can have the box for free I have no use for it. A couple of problems though. First, I haven't managed to separate it from the engine yet. Despite taking all the screws out from everything that I can see securing it to the block, so far, it hasn't budged a mm. Secondly I am in Selby Yorkshire so getting it to you could be a problem and thirdly I took the oil drain plug out this morning and about a gallon of water came out. The drive shaft does move so it isn't seized but, obviously, water shouldn't be where it was.

 

Anyway your welcome to have if you still want it subject to me separating it from the engine and making arrangements to get it to you.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[Tony Brooks]

Richard knows about this but I am almost sure there is a ball bearing fitted into the input shaft and pushed into the reverse gear drum. If water has been in the box it might have corroded into the drum. I fear it may be a two lever job.

 

I think there is a sandwich plate between the box body and flywheel housing. If you can free this and swivel it round you might be able to start the movement with a wedge between the body and flywheel housing where the starter sits. Then push the tail of the box from the other side to try to even up the force on the bearing.

[pete.i]

Richard knows about this but I am almost sure there is a ball bearing fitted into the input shaft and pushed into the reverse gear drum. If water has been in the box it might have corroded into the drum. I fear it may be a two lever job.

 

I think there is a sandwich plate between the box body and flywheel housing. If you can free this and swivel it round you might be able to start the movement with a wedge between the body and flywheel housing where the starter sits. Then push the tail of the box from the other side to try to even up the force on the bearing.

 

Hi Tony

Yes there is a sandwich plate between the box body and the flywheel housing. But everything is beginning to move now after wiggling and pushing and pulling. It's only a very small movement but from small things big things can be achieved or something like that. Anyway it is coming off so I will persevere.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[Tony Brooks]

Two wedges and more wiggling about!

[BEngo]

Don't force it lad: Get a bigger 'ammer.

 

MN

[pete.i]

Don't force it lad: Get a bigger 'ammer.

 

MN

Yep i'm only using a titchy lump ammer. I'll have to dig out my sledge ammer.

[pete.i]

Hi everyone.

I have, finally, managed to separate the gearbox and all the drive gubbins that were attached to the flywheel from the engine. As I have said I do not want the gearbox so if you want to pm me Richard (RLWP) then, if you want it, we can arrange to get it to you somehow. It's bliidy heavy though.

 

Anyway pics below are from the engine. As you can see the big end bearing shells look brand new and IMO have never been run. The crank pins do have run marks on them, which I would expect, but they are not scored in any way. So basically this engine is looking good. I haven't removed the other pistons yet to check their big ends but seeing as I have got it stripped this far I might as well do that. The reason I removed this piston is because the top of the piston is quite badly scored. It looks to me as if something has dropped into the cylinder and the engine has been run with whatever had fallen in. Judging by the marks it would appear to be a washer of some sort. There is nothing in the cylinder now and there are no marks on the cylinder head corresponding to that cylinder so I think that either the head has been skimmed to get rid of any dents or the head has been replaced.

I have a couple of questions for the BMC gurus though.

 

First one. I'm fairly sure the engine has been run after repair with the piston in that state. Do you think it would be wise to put that piston back or should I get a new one?

 

Second one. There is no water pump on this engine there is a water pump shaped casting over the hole that would accommodate the impeller but there is no impeller there neither is there a shaft or pulley to drive a pump. The casting has the bit where the shaft would be blanked off but it's not a blanking plug it is part of the casting. Is this normal? I assume that an external pump of some sort would have been used to move the water around the engine. There is a thermostat on the head and that is in a conventional thermostat housing. There is only one pulley attached to the end of the crankshaft and that is used to drive the alternator. Oh and there is a starting handle boss as well on that pulley and I'm told that this is an early engine because of the starter handle boss. That's not relevant to my questions though, I just thought I would throw that in.

 

Third one. Now that I have removed the gearbox and the drive cog and bearings from the engine I now have a recess in the middle of the flywheel which has five studs protruding from it and these studs are what attached the drive shaft to the gearbox. My question is is this a standard flywheel or is has this flywheel been made/adapted specifically for the gearbox.

 

The reason I have put the piston side view piccy in is because there was a discussion about pistons in BMCs with five rings and that seemed to be not normal, at least that is what I gleaned from the posts. Anyway as you can see my engine has five rings on the piston and they look okay as well, although assuming the other big end bearings are okay, I will replace all the rings on the pistons as a matter of course.

 

 

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u492/pete-i1/20140307_163832.jpg

 

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u492/pete-i1/20140307_163748.jpg

 

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u492/pete-i1/20140307_164031.jpg

 

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u492/pete-i1/20140307_163859.jpg

 

Okay that will do for now. I'm sure I will have more questions later and thanks for your help it is much appreciated.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited March 7, 2014 by pete.i

[RLWP]

Yuk!

 

What would I do if it were my engine? I'd probably put the piston back after examining it carefully.

 

Personally, I'd rather have an engine driven water pump, you should be able to get one

 

I'd like to see a photo of the flywheel

 

Richard

[pete.i]

Hi Richard.

Yes I would prefer an engine driven water pump but as this is going to be a spare engine for my boat should I need to use it then I will take the bits off my present engine. I can get a piccy of the flywheel but its down in the garage cos my missus wouldn't let me strip the engine down in the kitchen so give me a minute and I'll post a picture up.

 

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u492/pete-i1/20140307_185045.jpg

 

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u492/pete-i1/20140307_185059.jpg

 

There ya go.

 

Pete

Edited March 7, 2014 by pete.i

[Bee]

Not sure about that piston, do you think the damage was a broken ring? have a good look at the ring grooves just in case something nasty has happened, the damage to the crown probably won`t make much difference. Water pump or lack of, is a bit odd, presumably it had a belt driven pump at one time, maybe two way, bilge pump / raw water, useful spare though or a winter project for cash flow if the need arises.

[Tony Brooks]

1. The upper oil control ring looks horribly like a Welworthy/Cord type ting fitted to worn engines so please measure the bores. They may be well worn.

 

2. The flywheel should be a heavier marine flywheel which is what you want to get a smoother tick over when in gear. If it were the automotive flywheel you should fit a bulk ring.

 

3. Your description of the plate over the water pump hole sounds as if this was a direct raw water cooled engine. The hole should be threaded to accept one branch from the Jabsco raw water pump. any 1.5 pump should fit as long as the pulleys line up.

 

4. Based on what your photos show I think that I would try using that piston but if the bores are badly worn it may be academic.

 

Edited to add;

 

5. Having looked at the new photos I think that is a standard automotive flywheel. I doubt that you will find a bulk ring unless your present engine has one but it should still be OK but with a higher idle speed and maybe a bit more vibration.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Tony Brooks

[RLWP]

Not sure about that piston, do you think the damage was a broken ring? have a good look at the ring grooves just in case something nasty has happened, the damage to the crown probably won`t make much difference. Water pump or lack of, is a bit odd, presumably it had a belt driven pump at one time, maybe two way, bilge pump / raw water, useful spare though or a winter project for cash flow if the need arises.

I thought broken ring when I saw it, but you'd notice the damage where it escaped past the crown

 

I have a couple of MG pistons somewhere wher a ring broke up. I couldn't understand why it kept starting to run on three cylinders, and the plug gap was zero. I would reset it, only to find next day it happened again.

 

Richard

[pete.i]

Okay thanks for that everyone. Where would I find measurements for the bore dimensions Tony? I have the, so called, workshop manual that I got of the tinterweb but that does seem to be a bit sparse for a workshop manual. Would they be in there?

 

Richard do you want this gearbox? I do not want anything for it but it will cost to get it to you. I'm not pushing but if you don't want it then I'm going to bin it.

 

Pete

[RLWP]

Yes please.

 

I'll PM you, perhaps we can arrange a CWDF delivery?

 

Richard

[Tony Brooks]

Clean the carbon off the top of the bore and measure the diameter there. That will give you the bore diameter be it standard or oversize. At present you do not need to know but you do need to find out how much larger than that any worn parts of the bore are.

 

You will probably feel a lip on one side of the bore just below the carbon ring. Measure just below this lip and then about half way down the bore . You need to take two measurements in each place. One across ways and one fore & aft. Subtract one form the other to find the ovality. Subtract the top measurement from the largest one you find else where to find the wear.

 

I no longer have my textbooks that tell me the maximum deviation from the top measurement is acceptable. Maybe Richard knows.

 

The manual I just downloaded gives the STANDARD bore as 73.01 to 73.05 mm but it may have been rebored at plus 10 thou. " intervals. probably + 0.020" or +0.040"

Edited March 7, 2014 by Tony Brooks

[RLWP]

Not me, I trust my local engine machine shop to do that stuff. They point out disastrous things to me that I miss

 

On that subject, I have just had an SR3 crank polished, the journals looked similar to the ones you have

 

Anyone up for moving a gearbox from Selby to Kenilworth? Part journeys will help

 

Richard

[pete.i]

Okay Tony thanks for that. The manual that you downloaded is probably the same one that I have. I got it from the Norfolk Broads site. I haven't looked in that to see if the dimensions are in it but I will do as you say.

 

To Richard. This gearbox is heavy as you know but if anyone volunteers they do need to know that. I can get it on to whatever vehicle they bring but I would think that a small car wouldn't cut it. I would cover it very well in thick rubble type plastic sacks to prevent any oil drips. I have emptied all the oil out but there will still a small amount of residual left.

 

Pete

Edited March 7, 2014 by pete.i

[LEO]

Hi Pete,

 

Great pics, interestingly enough the engine in KEB was a MEAKES unit (Meakes boatyard on the Thames?). It was a raw water cooled engine and when I had it initially did not have a water pump, but relied on an external Jabsco pump. It was Ok when underway but the temperature gauge crept up when waiting at locks.

 

I discovered a fair few water channels in the block were silted up and when I converted it to a sealed heat exchanger I fitted a water pump to the block and cleared all the obstructions.

 

You may find the water pump fitted to Keb's engine will fit the engine you are overhauling, or they are obtainable.

 

The piston in the picture looks worn to me.

 

Tony Brooks may well have info on Meakes conversions this was probably carried out in the late 70's early 80's.

 

Mike

 

PS - I may have the 'blanking off plate' lurking in my garage if you want it, plus a couple of unused Waxstat thermostats if you want them.

[RLWP]

You should see what will go into a Peugeot 306. Or a 106 for that matter - like the entire bottom end of an SR3

 

Richard

[pete.i]

LOL Richard sounds like you have already tried it. But I don't know about anyone else wanting to put this great lump of metal in their car. Anyway we will see.

 

Hi mike. What would I need a blanking plate for? Re the thermostats thanks but it's probably just as cheap for me to buy one as it would be for me to pay the postage to get one sent up but. that wasn't meant to come out as being ungrateful. i am hugely grateful for the help and info that you have given me in the past re Keb. As far as the bores and pistons are concerned on that old engine I am going to reassemble what I have after checking the other bearings etc and then do a pressure test on each cylinder. The starter motor works and i have turned the engine over without the head on and it does spin okay. I have got a diesel engine cylinder pressure tester and have used it on the engine that is in Keb. I got around 180 psi from each cylinder on Keb (um maybe that first number is wrong) anyway I got what looked like a good reading for all four cylinders (got the info of YouTube for a different engine) so if I get similar readings for this second engine I will assume the bores are okay. I only paid £250 for this engine so I can afford to spend a bit on testing it. I got what looks like a nearly new diesel injector pump and a good head also a working starter motor and solenoid and a good alternator so I am happy with what I have and it gives me chance to play with an engine that ISN'T in my boat.

 

Pete

 

EERR yeah 380 psi I meant LOL.

Edited March 7, 2014 by pete.i

[Tony Brooks]

I have never hear of a J D Meakes marinised direct raw water cooled engine. As far as I know they started their own marinisation of 1.5s to go into their Madeira range or cruisers maybe 5 years before they went broke. They had their own exhaust manifold/heat exchanges and flywheel housings cast in aluminium. We felt their flywheel housing was more satisfactory than the official Newage/Tempest ones at the time and changed to using their marinisation parts for our engines but we had them cp the ends of the manifolds so we could use them without cores for keel cooling.

 

Having said all they they may have produced direct raw water cooled ones but I do not know. However it does not matter much who marinised it the engine internals will be the same. The only thing that may alter is things like the crankshaft/rear main seal and the engine water pump and that depends upon it age and what application BMC built the base engine for. I understand (and may well be wrong) some has scroll and thrower rear main seals instead or a lip seal and we know about the water pumps. Some were also built as I understand with a mechanical rev-counter drive built into the block but most drove it from the back of the dynamo.

 

EERR yeah 380 psi I meant LOL.

 

That' s better, you ha me going there until I read the correction.