selling a part fitted sailaway

[MtB]

As the builder I think you can issue the paperwork. But the boat would have to comply with the RCD in all respects. And if the question is ever asked you would have to demonstrate that you are competent to certify that. Sounds easier to me to get an appropriately qualified surveyor or similar to take on that responsibility.

 

Only the hull builder can issue the Annex 3a, IIRC. So if they refuse or don't exist, you are stuffed. Guess how I know this.

 

 

MtB

[Alan de Enfield]

the boat had never been on water until we launched her in 2012, the broker told us that the boat had been brought to the marina on a lorry and was put straight on blocks. we kept it on land to save us the license fees until we wanted to use it on the canal. does this make sense ??

That makes it only 2 years since '1st use' so you;ve another 3 years to go before you can legally sell it.

 

I'd suggest that you point out to the broker you bought it from that either they, or whoever they were acting for when they sold it, are responsible as the 1st people to put it into the market. You should have some recompense from somewhere - but if the original 'seller' has gone 'bust' then you are lumbered.

[jaynienben]

thanks for all the info, I am deffinately taking legal advice and will be making sure the brokers are aware.

[Greedyheron]

Worth checking out Hampshire trading standards website- go to b for boat. Last time I looked into this they were the ones who really understood the rcd and their site has some basic but useful information and they were quite helpful. They may be able to tell you if you would have any right to claim against the broker for example.

[Alan de Enfield]

Worth checking out Hampshire trading standards website- go to b for boat. Last time I looked into this they were the ones who really understood the rcd and their site has some basic but useful information and they were quite helpful. They may be able to tell you if you would have any right to claim against the broker for example.

I've alreaady put up the link to Hampshire Trading Standards RCD page in post #18

[Bee]

Find someone with a similar L`pool boat, ask to have a look at their annex 3a, copy it, job done, your boat will be identical to all the others unless there is some sort of huge design difference so it won`t matter a jot. We are not talking about forging passports or £10 notes here, just a silly bit of paper.

[costalot]

My understanding of the process for a self-fitout boat is the owner can decide whether or not to go down the RCD path. If they chose not to then the boat only requires a BSS, but they can’t sell the boat for five years. Moreover as more people become aware of the RCD it may become increasingly difficult to sell a relatively new boat without an RCD number.

 

Opting to obtain RCD is very complex. You can get the number by completing a form and apply to the RYA who I believe are the sole issuing authority in the UK for owner-builders.

 

Boats require two manuals.

 

1. The owner’s manual stays with the boat and is the smaller of the two.

 

2. The technical manual must be retained by the builder (I think for 10 years). It describes in detail how the craft was constructed.

 

The shell builder also issues a certificate of conformity. An owner doing a self fitout and who didn’t build the shell himself must have a copy of the certificate (declaration) of conformity for the shell.

 

I opted to go down the RCD path and employed a marine surveyor to complete all the necessary documentation (including both manuals) and he also inspected the boat. I had to complete the application to the RYA for the 16 digit number which is now affixed to the stern of the boat. This number is not the hull identification number provided by the shell builder.

[patty-ann]

My understanding of the process for a self-fitout boat is the owner can decide whether or not to go down the RCD path. If they chose not to then the boat only requires a BSS, but they can’t sell the boat for five years. Moreover as more people become aware of the RCD it may become increasingly difficult to sell a relatively new boat without an RCD number.

 

Opting to obtain RCD is very complex. You can get the number by completing a form and apply to the RYA who I believe are the sole issuing authority in the UK for owner-builders.

 

Boats require two manuals.

 

1. The owner’s manual stays with the boat and is the smaller of the two.

 

2. The technical manual must be retained by the builder (I think for 10 years). It describes in detail how the craft was constructed.

 

The shell builder also issues a certificate of conformity. An owner doing a self fitout and who didn’t build the shell himself must have a copy of the certificate (declaration) of conformity for the shell.

 

I opted to go down the RCD path and employed a marine surveyor to complete all the necessary documentation (including both manuals) and he also inspected the boat. I had to complete the application to the RYA for the 16 digit number which is now affixed to the stern of the boat. This number is not the hull identification number provided by the shell builder.

Thanks for above information as my boat is being lined and it seems I needs must check out that the builder has put in the HIN ---I do not have a 14 digit number on my receipt. One lives and learns..

[rjasmith]

Here's a few thoughts from me on this topic as I am also building (for ever it seems!) an Nb from a bare steel shell stage (Colecraft). The boat is on sleepers in our garden and has never been in water (well apart from a lot of rain!).

 

I'm doing my best to build to the RCD (the 2003 version) and I must now get her complete and in use before Jan 2017 otherwise I will need to be in compliance with the recently revised 2014 version of the RCD. The boat will not be able to meet the 2014 version because it has a non compliant engine built in 1942! Any engine built before Jan 2006 is exempt under the earlier RCD but after Jan 2017 the earlier RCD can no longer be worked to.

 

Perhaps there is a little confusion about the "Annex 15" document (note, to be pedantic there's no "a" on the end of this one whereas there is on the Annex 3a!).

 

The Annexes in the RCD are just paragraphs at the end of it (after the "Articles" which give the actual legal statements).

 

Annex 3 sub para "a" describes the information that must be passed on by a builder of a "part complete boat" to the next person who is going to complete it.

 

My "Annex 3a" certificate from Colecraft details, on a single A4 page, briefly what work they did to build the hull and most importantly, lists the 3 or 4 ISO standards they complied with in respect of eg hull constructional strength and other steelwork related subjects.

 

The next person who takes on the completion of the boat then becomes the Boat Builder in the eyes of the RCD. The hull builder is now no longer the boat builder any more!!

 

Annex 15 of the RCD describes the info and format that must be used to produce the final RCD Declaration of Conformity (DoC). So instead of calling it an "Annex 15", it's more usually called the RCD DoC and it's this that is most important to have if you own an RCD compliant boat (built after 1998).

 

I've often wondered if a part complete boat can be legally sold on from person to person, provided each one adds their own Annex 3a covering the work they've done (plus of course any earlier Annex 3a's) to the next "builder".

 

From my own reading of the RCD I haven't seen where this would be ruled out even though it might be pretty unusual!

 

For the OP I would certainly think it would be worth asking a surveyor's advice. The work you've already done may only need checking against relatively few additional RCD ISO standards. You certainly won't have done any stability tests to ISO 12217 if the boat has never been afloat, just like mine!

 

If the surveyor confirms that all you need to do is do an Annex 3a for your work, maybe you can agree with your buyer to pass it on to him. I would have thought the surveyor could assess the Liverpool Boat Co's steelwork etc fairly easily to certify its compliance. Getting hold of another LB boats Annex 3a as suggested above might be useful to prompt him for suitable wording perhaps? See my further post below for stuff about HIN/CIN.

 

You will also need to get an exhaust emissions DoC from the engine builder (assuming its a post 2006 engine!) but presumably they are still in business.

 

There's a bit more info about the RCD process from the RYA here if you need it. Scroll down to the "General Guidance" bit plus its appendices where clickable links will take you to much more detail - its how I got started!

 

Richard

Edited January 29, 2014 by rjasmith

[rjasmith]

Thanks for above information as my boat is being lined and it seems I needs must check out that the builder has put in the HIN ---I do not have a 14 digit number on my receipt. One lives and learns..

 

Another bit of clarification perhaps - Originally the RCD used the term "Hull Identification No" (HIN) to refer to the unique 14 digit number.

 

About 8 years ago the official term was changed to "Craft Identification No". (CIN). This is the number that has to be right for the RCD and must be in the correct format and unique to the completed boat. It needs to be displayed on the starboard side of the stern but only needs to be in characters no smaller than 6mm tall. It also needs to be placed in a hidden place recorded by the boat builder.

 

I believe shell/sailaway builders have continued to apply their own hull numbers which they probably refer to as a HIN but these can't be the same as the true CIN because they may be in a non std format and not in the defined position etc. For example I have a HIN on my Colecraft shell which is on the inside surface of the weedbox. It would not be correct as an RCD CIN and I've applied to the RYA for a proper CIN.

 

Richard

[Bettie Boo]

 

Of course not. Now, let's take it from the other side, someone pops up saying they want to buy a boat with no RCD - what did we advise then? Probably either walk away, or negotiate a fat lump off the price

 

Richard

I can answer that.....we were advised my numerous forum members to walk away if the owner couldn't provide proof that his self build boat being fully RCD compliant.

 

As well as Starcoaster (thank you) and a couple of others providing me with links so I could read up on exactly what RCD compliance actually meant & how it was relevant to us.

 

I do seem to remember reading that "if" anyone would be prosecuted, it would be the owner who sold the boat first, after it had been launched; if selling it without being RCD compliant & within 5 years of being built. Once the 5 years are up, the RCD will really only effect the sale if you are trying to sell it outside England, or that's my understand of the regulations anyway as well as what our surveyor confirmed when asked. RYA and BM both have the full regulations on their web sites.

[MtB]

 

Whilst fairly sure nobody has been prosecuted, a fair number of potential sales have stopped in their tracks because of it, and a fair number of probably substandard boats have been denied a market.

 

Not quite accurate.

 

Denied a market for five years you mean, then flog the death trap with impunity.

 

Isn't EEC law GREAT?!

 

 

MtB

[Biggles]

Their problem is that this now counts as a home built boat

 

Richard

 

Why would that be a "problem". Nothing wrong with that so long as its done to a high standard. Mine is RCD compliant of course.

 

I thought it was / is 5 years from the date of first use (ie in the water)

This is my understanding also.

The Regulations place the responsibility of ensuring the craft meets all the requirements of the RCD upon the person who first places the craft on the EEA market.

THAT WOULD BE WHOEVER THE BROKER WAS SELLING IT FOR - OR MAYBE THE BROKER ?

 

A Home build craft is just that, and is usually built from scratch by the person who is going to use it.

 

There are conditions:

To meet the home build exemption the boat must have been used exclusively, as a recreation craft, by the builder and

Not further placed on the market for at least 5 years.

 

 

First placing on the market is a legal term that has several meanings:

It usually happens when the completed craft is sold by the manufacturer to the person who is going to use it or a dealer for further distribution.

It also happens when the completed craft is used for the first time, as in the case of a Home build or is added to the manufacturer’s charter fleet.

With imported boats, it happens when it clears customs because it is then available for use or distribution.

At this time the completed craft must comply with all the requirements of the RCD.

 

The requirements apply equally to businesses and private individuals.

 

Consequences

The enforcement authorities of any EEA Member State can take action to remove a non-compliant boat from their waters

Most non-compliant boats can be made to comply, PCA, but there is a cost involved. It could be you that foots the bill.

A non-compliant boat is not worth as much as a compliant one.

Your insurance cover may be invalid.

The BSS certificate could be revoked and you will not be allowed to use your boat.

A non-compliant boat never gains compliance just because it has been used for some time.

 

 

 

http://www3.hants.gov.uk/tradingstandards/tradingstandards-boats/recreationalcraft-canalboats.htm

 

How can a BSS be revoked? If it passes it passes. That has nothing to do with RCD compliance. RCD compliance negates the need for BSS for the first 5 years after which it then needs BSS every 4 years.

 

Even if the BSS was issued today and you drilled a hole in a gas pipe the next day the BSS would still be valid as it was certified on the day of examination. Not likely I know but perfectly possible.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Biggles

[Alan de Enfield]

How can a BSS be revoked? If it passes it passes. That has nothing to do with RCD compliance. RCD compliance negates the need for BSS for the first 5 years after which it then needs BSS every 4 years.

I have no idea - the quote was taken from the Hampshire Trading Standards web site to which I put the link.

[Biggles]

If the boat has a CIN (HIN) and is home built the issuing authority is the RYA and the number will start GB RYA. If a recognised boat builder builds it the 3 characters after the country of build will be one issued specifically to that boat builder.

 

Wiki Linky

[MtB]

 

Why would that be a "problem". Nothing wrong with that so long as its done to a high standard. Mine is RCD compliant of course.

 

In the case of the OP, he has no Annex 3a declaration from the (defunct) hull builder, so can't get past first base.

 

No-one has yet proposed a viable way to get an Annex 3a declaration, other than from the hull builder who no longer exists.

 

 

MtB

[Bee]

You say the fit out is not yet complete, does this mean that your potential buyers are willing to self certify?, this is not a particularly onerous thing to do, lots of people on here can tell you or them how to do this. I did this for my boat but it was 4 or 5 years ago so my info is not too recent. The annex 3a only needs to be a sheet of A4 stating that the hull meets the relevant ISO standards (I think there are three) and a signature. I have just dug through my paperwork to see what they are but all the paperwork is on the boat 600 miles away. There is no way that your boat will not comply unless it is a radical one off and should there ever be a problem then you or the owner at the time can refer the problem to L`pool boats and that will be a dead end. Your solution is to look at someone elses annex 3a, copy it, backdate it to just before they went bust and self certify your boat. If it has a BSS and a surveyor looks it over then it is an ok boat. Some will think this is a cavalier approach to the regulations but it`s the regs. that are the problem, not the boat.

[Alan de Enfield]

There seems to be getting more and more 'things' discussed or suggested on the forum which in my opinion would be better dealt with via PM

[Biggles]

 

In the case of the OP, he has no Annex 3a declaration from the (defunct) hull builder, so can't get past first base.

 

No-one has yet proposed a viable way to get an Annex 3a declaration, other than from the hull builder who no longer exists.

 

 

MtB

My take on the comment was that a homebuilt is in some way inferior. In the OP case the lack of paperwork is a problem but not because its a home built.

[Simon clarke]

But does the legal obligation to maintain records die with the company or are the former directors still liable?

When a company is liquidated a reciever takes over. Directors walk and no further obligations.

[Biggles]

You say the fit out is not yet complete, does this mean that your potential buyers are willing to self certify?, this is not a particularly onerous thing to do, lots of people on here can tell you or them how to do this. I did this for my boat but it was 4 or 5 years ago so my info is not too recent. The annex 3a only needs to be a sheet of A4 stating that the hull meets the relevant ISO standards (I think there are three) and a signature. I have just dug through my paperwork to see what they are but all the paperwork is on the boat 600 miles away. There is no way that your boat will not comply unless it is a radical one off and should there ever be a problem then you or the owner at the time can refer the problem to L`pool boats and that will be a dead end. Your solution is to look at someone elses annex 3a, copy it, backdate it to just before they went bust and self certify your boat. If it has a BSS and a surveyor looks it over then it is an ok boat. Some will think this is a cavalier approach to the regulations but it`s the regs. that are the problem, not the boat.

 

I agree. Its just another load of EU BullSh1t. My bet is it was set up to make sure it was difficult for Joe Blogs to make and sell boats without paying taxes. The more paperwork needed the less chance you can lose a boat for cash.

 

What would happen if you sold it to a non EU person (country) then bought it back?

[Dr Bradley]

You say the fit out is not yet complete, does this mean that your potential buyers are willing to self certify?, this is not a particularly onerous thing to do, lots of people on here can tell you or them how to do this. I did this for my boat but it was 4 or 5 years ago so my info is not too recent. The annex 3a only needs to be a sheet of A4 stating that the hull meets the relevant ISO standards (I think there are three) and a signature. I have just dug through my paperwork to see what they are but all the paperwork is on the boat 600 miles away. There is no way that your boat will not comply unless it is a radical one off and should there ever be a problem then you or the owner at the time can refer the problem to L`pool boats and that will be a dead end. Your solution is to look at someone elses annex 3a, copy it, backdate it to just before they went bust and self certify your boat. If it has a BSS and a surveyor looks it over then it is an ok boat. Some will think this is a cavalier approach to the regulations but it`s the regs. that are the problem, not the boat.

Backdate it to 5+ years.

[Arthur Brown]

It's almost amusing that a new boat by a known builder has these problems but the remaining historic boats have no paperwork, may be a front and back, may never have had their current name before.

[Bee]

Yes, The daft thing is that the L`pool boats craft is almost certainly perfectly ok and the shortened / lengthened / chopped boats are likely to be perfectly fit for purpose. It`s not the bit of paper that keeps the boat afloat. The RCD is just a framework of regs and it is possible to build something horrible and still comply with the thing and it is also possible to condemn a perfectly good boat to a heap of problems.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Bee

[Alan de Enfield]

A bit like ISO9000 quality Standards - they don't guarantee a 'quality' product - you could make total C**P and still pass - what the standard does guarantee is that you can build C**P everytime - consistently