Boat Purchase

[PaddingtonBear]

I can fully understand your annoyance of the outcome of the survey.

Did the surveyor give an idea of the costs involved to put the boat into good condition ?

If so, was the seller/broker willing to reduce the price of the boat?

Why would you want to? there are thousands of boats for sale and so it is never worth the trouble.

[Laurie Booth]

Why would you want to? there are thousands of boats for sale and so it is never worth the trouble.

If it's the boat of your dreams it might be worth buying it with it's faults at a knock down price.

[Neil2]

 

Good luck with that - I can't see many, (possibly any), agreeing though!

 

Most vendors won't go into a sale on that basis. The only leverage you have is to use any faults a survey picks up to get the vendor to reduce the price - but whether they wish to negotiate is entirely up to them.

 

What I'm suggesting is, I agree to buy a boat and then say to the seller, look, if when we take this boat out of the water my surveyor tells me the hull needs a full replate/overplate I want you to share the cost of the lift out/survey. If the seller flat refuses, what would you conclude?

 

I actually had this conversation with the owner of a boat I looked at recently and he didn't object.

 

I'm not talking abut minor faults that might lead to some renegotiation, just boats that are unfit for purpose. And as we have witnessed more than once on this forum, every so often a boat comes up, often with a valid BSC, that turns out to be close to sinking.

 

I can't think of any other way at the moment to get some sort of recompense in a situation like this.

[Traveller]

We have told the broker that we intend to walk away so now awaiting return of deposit.

 

As a matter of interest, are there any brokers that can be recommended? Those I have dealt with so far hide behind "nothing to do with us we are just an estate agent for boats". Quite true of course but does not fill a buyer with confidence! We have tried an outfit around Great Haywood and just walked away after talking to the sales guy. It was a bit like buying a boat from a Petticoat Lane stall!

Edited November 6, 2013 by Traveller

[Grace and Favour]

We have told the broker that we intend to walk away so now awaiting return of deposit.

 

As a matter of interest, are there any brokers that can be recommended? Those I have dealt with so far hide behind "nothing to do with us we are just an estate agent for boats". Quite true of course but does not fill a buyer with confidence! We have tried an outfit around Great Haywood and just walked away after talking to the sales guy. It was a bit like buying a boat from a Petticoat Lane stall!

You'll find that Rugby Boat Sales (Dom is a member on here) will be very highly recommended by everyone that's used them

[Athy]

Andy Burnett (ABNB) can be trusted. We have used them and were very satisfied.

[nicknorman]

 

We have tried an outfit around Great Haywood and just walked away after talking to the sales guy.

We once tried to look at some second hand boats at Gt Haywood marina (before sensibly deciding to buy a Hudson!), arriving in our friend's boat. They didn't like us tying up at the office pontoon, made us feel unwelcome and we were shunted to the side in the shallows. Then we waited for ages for a sales rep to appear. Eventually we got fed up and left without seeing any of their boats. Probably the best thing that happened to us!

[bottle]

(before sensibly deciding to buy a Hudson!)

 

We all make mistakes.

 

 

 

 

I know we should stop making fun of you and your boat but it is all done in the best possible taste.

[nicknorman]

(before sensibly deciding to buy a Hudson!)

 

We all make mistakes.

 

 

 

 

I know we should stop making fun of you and your boat but it is all done in the best possible taste.

Don't worry, I know its totally born out of jealousy, quite flattering really!

[Traveller]

nicknorman, our experience was much the same. Hung around for ages for the sales guy to turn up, then the lock to get into the boat was seized and finally the boat would not start as all the services had been left on! Sales guy says he will get it going so we hang around but after an hour we just drove off. And this was a pre-arranged appointment....never again.

[Traveller]

Well, got the surveyors report and what a good guy he is - he halved his fee. I shall use him again - if I ever try again!

The survey was really bad and an awful lot of it must have been evident when the boat arrived at the brokers. Notwithstanding buyer beware and all that how on earth can a broker put a price on a boat that is clearly no reflection of its condition? I am sure an awful lot of people work on the basis that the brokers valuation is, to a large extent, based upon the condition and age of the boat.

[ditchcrawler]

Well, got the surveyors report and what a good guy he is - he halved his fee. I shall use him again - if I ever try again!

 

The survey was really bad and an awful lot of it must have been evident when the boat arrived at the brokers. Notwithstanding buyer beware and all that how on earth can a broker put a price on a boat that is clearly no reflection of its condition? I am sure an awful lot of people work on the basis that the brokers valuation is, to a large extent, based upon the condition and age of the boat.

Did the Broker price it or was it what the owner said he wanted for it. We all think our boats are wonderful and worth millions.

[Neil2]

Well, got the surveyors report and what a good guy he is - he halved his fee. I shall use him again - if I ever try again!

 

The survey was really bad and an awful lot of it must have been evident when the boat arrived at the brokers. Notwithstanding buyer beware and all that how on earth can a broker put a price on a boat that is clearly no reflection of its condition? I am sure an awful lot of people work on the basis that the brokers valuation is, to a large extent, based upon the condition and age of the boat.

I've had this conversation with a few brokers and it seems that most owners bring their boat along with a good idea of what they want for it, and expect the broker to get somewhere close to that price. More often than not the broker then has to persuade the owner they are being unrealistic, but how hard they try and how successful they are depends on an array of factors, one of which you might say is how scrupulous the broker is.

 

I'm sure there are scores of boats on brokerage where the broker knows full well it's not worth anywhere near the asking price but, well, maybe some mug will come along or at the very least someone will take a chance on it, have it taken out of the water and surveyed and then the real value will be established at no cost to the owner or the broker. It's a can't lose situation unless the broker considers his reputation which clearly many don't.

[Traveller]

As I understand it the hull of a narrow boat must be a minimum 5mm to be insurable. Is that the base plate only or the entire hull? Given the 5mm requirement, is it really sensible to build boats with 6mm plate or to over plate existing suspect hulls with 6mm? Presumably subsequent surveys will look only at the thickness of the over-plating and not what is under it?

Given that a boat may be constructed with 6mm steel (or over-plated with it) what would the lifespan be and what sort of maintenance regime is required to attain/prolong it?. How long before a little over 1mm is worn away? It seems that most do not paint the base plate for obvious reasons so that must be a suspect area.

I am sure this has all been asked before but being something of a newbie when it comes to hull thickness all information would help me immensely in my search for a boat.

[nicknorman]

As far as I know, 5mm is no magic figure for insurability. Springers were apparently only built with 3mm. No doubt different insurance companies have their own limits, but if I were setting limits it would be in relation to the original thickness. I would be a lot more worried about a boat with 5mm thickness that started off with 10mm, than I would be with one that started off at 6mm. From where do you get this 5mm limit thing?

 

As to the second part of your question, it depends a lot on a number of external factors such as the nature of the water (impurities, salt etc) and the presence of any elecrolytic corrosion from your own, or nearby boat's electrical installation (in particular shore power), how you use the boat, and ultimately the quality of the steel.

 

It is normal to take the boat out of the water every 2 years or so for hull blacking. The critical area is just around the water line since there is the mixture of water and oxygen that promotes the formation of rust. Its not normal (though some do it) to paint the baseplate since not only is the coating likely to be worn away fairly quickly, but also there is no much oxygen down there.

 

Most boats have 6mm sides these days. Many now have 10mm or more bottoms, but not so long ago most had 6mm. So 6mm is plenty for a useful working life of 25 years, probably much more if looked after.

Edited November 7, 2013 by nicknorman

[Traveller]

Thanks nicknorman, that really does help. Where did I get the 5mm thing from? I am certain I read it somewhere but for the life of me I cannot remember where. Also on the last survey I read there were words along the lines of "hull being close to insurance limits due to pitting". The plate was 6mm and there was recorded pitting up to 1mm.

Thanks again,. I will not worry about 6mm plate any more (well, not if it is in good condition).

[Neil2]

It was actually the Springer Waterbug that was 3mm, it was meant to be trailable and with steel that thin it was just possible to get the weight under three tons. Our first boat was a 20 year old 'bug and when surveyed the hull was almost like new - maintenance is all.

 

Plenty of sea going boats built with steel no thicker than 6mm and there's really no unequivocal reason for using steel any thicker unless you plan to skimp on maintenance. The main advantage of say 10mm and upwards is it reduces the amount of ballast you need to pull the boat down in the water. But you see such a lot of badly trimmed narrowboats these days and this is partly because having such a heavy baseplate prevents fine tuning by adjusting ballast.

[Traveller]

Good points, Neil2. Thanks!

[Traveller]

Just about to whip off and have a look at another boat, being sold by Norbury Wharf from what is the old Anglo Welsh yard. Anybody have any experience of Norbury Wharf brokerage? They seem attentive and helpful but given my recent experience I am a little "shaky" but appreciate there are good guys also.

[Neil2]

The good thing about Norbury is they are independent

 

Just about to whip off and have a look at another boat, being sold by Norbury Wharf from what is the old Anglo Welsh yard. Anybody have any experience of Norbury Wharf brokerage? They seem attentive and helpful but given my recent experience I am a little "shaky" but appreciate there are good guys also.

I've only heard good things about Norbury but I believe they do buy boats in, and take them in part exchange as well, so check who owns the boat you are looking at. Nothing inherently wrong with buying a boat owned by the broker but I'd be on my guard.

 

For what it's worth, I'm told they have a good welder/fabricator working there.

[matty40s]

I think most of the well known canal insurance companies use 4mm as a cut off for fully comp insurance.

[Traveller]

Neil2, thanks.

There is another boat e intend to look at and she is at Braunston. The boat is 1987 and was over plated in full 3 years ago and is ex hire. The one thing I always worry about with ex-hire is engine hours. On the other hand a good hire company looks after its boats, that is why there are so many ex-hire running around the Norfolk Broads. We are trying to find out who the hire company was.

Matty40s how do the insurers know if the hull is 4mm, except via the initial purchase survey? As I understand it, many insurers do not even ask any questions re plate thickness. We insured for years with Knox Johnson and they never ever asked to see a survey or hull condition report. Things may have changed though..

Edited November 8, 2013 by Traveller

[nicknorman]

Some insurance companies start to require a hull survey once the boat is over a certain age.

[Athy]

I do not think you need to worry about engine hours - think of diesel engines in road vehicles which do 100,000 miles or more and are still in working order. Perhaps the way in which some hirers may have used the engine (and particularly gearbox) might give cause for concern.

[matty40s]

a boat owner I know has a 6mm plated hull which is down to 3.5 - 7 in places.

They cannot get fully comp insurance until re/overplating is done. The insurance company requested a hull survey as the boat is 40 years old.