Freezers

[blackrose]

 

 

How do you think frozen food is delivered via couriers?

 

Yep thats right in an insulated box (just like a freezer).

 

We used to sell frozen meat & used polystyrene boxes with about a 1" thick wall (Our current freezer has 2" thick walls).

 

We did tests & found that if the box was packed with meat at -24c it would stay below -18c for 48 hours.

 

 

Oh & lots of new freezers have a power outage spec. I think ours is 80-100 hours with no power.

 

 

Well there is actually far more transportation of frozen food in chilled transport than in ambient transport, but anyway...

 

I've worked on coolboxes as part of my PhD. We were making them from biodegradable startch-based foams and comparing their performance to EPS foam boxes in 24 hour transit trials. As you say, these boxes can be used in ambient conditions to deliver food over 24 - 48 hour periods. However, as you also say, transport of chilled and frozen foods in ambient conditions using coolboxes is thoroughly tested in a variety of temperatures. I went for two job interviews at DC Smith Cool Logistics and I know how much work goes into testing and modelling the performance of these boxes. Just switching a freezer off inside a hot boat isn't tested at all, and as I previously stated, in these conditions whe it can get up to 32 degrees inside a boat it's not advisable! Take it from someone who works in the industry.

 

Edit: Outage specs on freezers depend very much on the ambient temperature. Yours will be 80-100 hours only within specified ambient temperatures.

 

If for any reason the power goes off on the walk-in temperature controlled rooms at work, an alarm goes off after 15 minutes.

Edited July 16, 2013 by blackrose

[sueb]

Had gas fridges for 22 years and they are far less trouble than electric and they are silent.

[Pete & Helen]

On the subject of fridges... I wondered how much power do you guys find a 12v fridge take out of your batteries?

 

I've got a waist height shoreline fridge with freezer box and came back after leaving it a day to find that over the day fridge had sucked about 35% out of the pretty much new batteries at about 110 a/h (apologies if this is not the correct terminology!) ... and this was with it on the lowest setting?! Having it any higher would have drained the battery bank in hours. I know its been very hot the past few days and has been getting very warm on the boat - but still seems like a lot to me...

 

The fridge is about 5 years old... just wondered if over time they lose their efficiency or gas in them needs replacing?

 

Thanks muchly in advance!!

 

We only go to the boat at weekends at the moment and switch off the 240 volt shore supply but leave the 12 volt on so the fridge is still on and after 5 days there is still plenty of battery life left. I think you may need to look at how good your batteries are or if your fridge is on its way out

[NorthwichTrader]

 

Folk with freezers, are folk who hate to waste anything, at least in my world!

[smileypete]

Can you get 12/24v fridges/freezers with a 240v option, so you can bypass the batteries when online?

I know caravan's have them, are they commonplace on boats?

 

Can certainly run a 12V fridge off a suitable mains to 12V power supply. As I'm on shoreline 24/7 I run a couple of pumps and the odd light off a 12V supply and the batt is disconnected.

 

The supply I use is a 12V 12A 'Dell DA1' though there's also a bigger 12V 18A 'Dell DA2', both can be had surprisingly cheaply from Ebay. Either should do a 12V fridge easy BUT the output connector does need replacing and rewiring.

 

For long term shoreline use it might not be a bad thing to run 12V boat domestics on a power supply, and have batts on a trickle or low power or charger instead of a hi power charger with their batt boiling tendencies.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited July 21, 2013 by smileypete

[NorthwichTrader]

Thanks, Pete!

Just to clarify, do you mean something that essentially steps down mains power to 12v, as opposed to running the mains through the batteries via the charger?

[ditchcrawler]

 

We only go to the boat at weekends at the moment and switch off the 240 volt shore supply but leave the 12 volt on so the fridge is still on and after 5 days there is still plenty of battery life left. I think you may need to look at how good your batteries are or if your fridge is on its way out

So how big is your battery bank?

[paul68]

The only sensible fridge in my opinion if your not on a permanent landline.

But all the online stores advertising gas fridges say 'Not to be used on any kind of boat'?

[smileypete]

Thanks, Pete!

Just to clarify, do you mean something that essentially steps down mains power to 12v, as opposed to running the mains through the batteries via the charger?

 

Yeah, the fridge would also need to be disconnected from the batts and to the power supply instead, eg with a removable connector or a switch of some sort.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[blackrose]

Folk with freezers, are folk who hate to waste anything, at least in my world!

 

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion? Most housholds in the UK waste loads of food and most households in the UK also have a freezer.

 

http://www.wrap.org.uk/content/new-estimates-household-food-and-drink-waste-uk

But all the online stores advertising gas fridges say 'Not to be used on any kind of boat'?

 

That is true, but I think the boats they're thinking of tend to pitch and roll more than the average narrowboat. I've got a gas fridge in my widebeam. It stays level 99% of the time, but if I was thinking of going onto a tidal river or estuary with any waves I'd switch the fridge off.

 

Ok, it's confession time. After reading one of the posts on this thread I popped into Argos to look at theit tabletop freezer and bought one. After 10 years living on boats I've finally become a greedy pig with a freezer full of food!

Edited July 22, 2013 by blackrose

[NorthwichTrader]

 

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion? Most housholds in the UK waste loads of food and most households in the UK also have a freezer.

 

Ah, yes, agreed, horrendous waste constantly, mostly perpetuated by indulgent buying!

However, never a broccoli stump or a spring onion top goes to waste in our home, which does require a freezer to cope with the piles of unnameable creations that materialise from the bottom/back of our fridge!

It's generally a fortnightly affair, but when mixed with pulses, tomatoes, herbs, and celery sticks, it needs a hearty feast, and a damn good freezer to cope with the remainder!

In our world, freezers are the great saver of many an otherwise wasted food stuff!

[Phil Ambrose]

Ah, yes, agreed, horrendous waste constantly, mostly perpetuated by indulgent buying!

However, never a broccoli stump or a spring onion top goes to waste in our home, which does require a freezer to cope with the piles of unnameable creations that materialise from the bottom/back of our fridge!

It's generally a fortnightly affair, but when mixed with pulses, tomatoes, herbs, and celery sticks, it needs a hearty feast, and a damn good freezer to cope with the remainder!

In our world, freezers are the great saver of many an otherwise wasted food stuff!

Well said that man.

 

Phil

[Ange]

As a liveaboard I don't bother with a freezer on my boat. I guess it's ok if you're moored up on shore power, but then it would make sense to run down the freezer and eat all the contents before going out on a cruise, which kind of takes the spontaneity out of it. When I'm off shore power I keep my electrical power demands low. Most of my lights are leds, I have a gas fridge and I switch TVs to a small 12v flatscreen that draws just 1amp in 12v. Apart from that it's just the pumps and perhaps laptop.

 

Fortunately I prefer fresh food rather than eating frozen ready meals, so for me, the benefits of a freezer onboard when off shore power would be far outweighed by the problems of trying to keep a container full of frozen food at the correct temperature without killing the batteries. After all, it's not like we have a shortage of food retail outlets in this country.

I do hate that old chestnut that gets wheeled out every time anyone talks about freezers!

 

I miss mine not because we ate frozen ready meals (never!) but because it makes economic sense. Buy a bag of prawns, a big bag of white fish, a big bag of smoked fish, stick them in the freezer and I have the ingredients for a good few lovely seafood dishes. Buy those ingredients for one dish (which is what we have to do at the moment) and the costs are hugely greater. I always had a big bag of frozen mixed veg which I'd sprinkle in meat and pasta dishes.

 

I used to put our crusts in the freezer to grate for breadcrumbs - non frozen bread is a bugger to grate. I also used to make bread or bread and butter pudding out of old crusts or stale bread, frozen until I had enough. When the fruit glut arrives you can always freeze blackberries and raspberries to use in the winter months.

 

Not to mention the reduced counter in the supermarket - there were times when we could pick up £60 worth of meat for £10 just by being there at the right moment. Without a freezer you can only buy what you can eat in the next couple of days.

 

And, of course, ice cream. You can't have a tub of ice cream available when you're feeling a bit low without a freezer.

 

Please don't dismiss those folks that need freezers as people that live off ready meals.

[Ships Cat]

Bearing in mind that you can get Propane fridge and freezers (that will switch to electric if gas runs out - clever!) and these must due to UK law be fitted by a modern version of the old Corgi Fitter how do you get around the fact that they're not supposed to be fitted to boats? The gas plumber will surely know that.

[onionbargee]

i find it "interesting" that we spend £££'s on power to get a fridge cold, while in the winter it's colder outside anyway, then we put a stove in the same cabin to heat the place, with the two fighting against each other.

 

Plus there is the fact that the insulation on off the shelf fridges is very poor, and the condenser is usually sat next to the insulated hull side, with no ventilation.

 

Could we have a worse enviroment for a fridge ?

[Ships Cat]

like I say, I've seen them parked next to ovens, too!

 

If it's in a cabinet you can increase the insulation round the sides, top and bottom but sadly not the back.

[Jambo]

Helps if a mains fridge is A+ or better still A++ efficiency, and the inverter has 'load-hunting' standby.

 

That'll way power consumption would start to be in the same ballpark as a 12V fridge. No need to get a fridge with all singing dancing controls either, a simple non electronic one would play better with a load hunting inverter.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

You can also get under the counter A+++ freezers and A+++ fridges (see e.g. Liebherr).

 

A+++ fridge freezers can be found in larger sizes but I believe are harder to find in under the counter size.

[onionbargee]

You can get a fridge with a keel cooled evaporator, claims to save 20 % on input

power

 

heres a good read.

.http://www.penguinfrigo.co.uk/assets/assets/PBO%20Fridge%20fitting.pdf

 

http://www.isotherm-parts.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=13

 

i'm thinking under the floor would be the best place for a freezer on a nb, a stainless box welded right onto the bottom plate utilizing all the natural cooling from the water, with vacuum panel insulation, and a heat sinked evaporator we might be talking super low power consumption ?.

Edited August 5, 2013 by onionbargee

[Ships Cat]

Would it not be better to put the freezer in the cabin and the compressor under the floor? It can heat that space instead of your cabin, be yards from the freezer so can't heat that, and so they won't work against each other. You could tailor your space so as to max insulate it too.

[ditchcrawler]

Would it not be better to put the freezer in the cabin and the compressor under the floor? It can heat that space instead of your cabin, be yards from the freezer so can't heat that, and so they won't work against each other. You could tailor your space so as to max insulate it too.

Basically the same as all the supermarkets do with their freezers

[smileypete]

 

You can also get under the counter A+++ freezers and A+++ fridges (see e.g. Liebherr).

 

A+++ fridge freezers can be found in larger sizes but I believe are harder to find in under the counter size.

 

True, but quite pricy when new, seems to be about the same as a 12V fridge.

 

The difference between A++ and A+++ might buy a decent amount of solar

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[onionbargee]

Would it not be better to put the freezer in the cabin and the compressor under the floor? It can heat that space instead of your cabin, be yards from the freezer so can't heat that, and so they won't work against each other. You could tailor your space so as to max insulate it too.

Under the floor is already around 10 deg c lower temp than the ambient in the summer, and it's insulated from the heated cabin in the winter.

[Ships Cat]

Basically the same as all the supermarkets do with their freezers

 

Yes, if not just under the units. Shame they waste so much energy by not putting doors on the bloody things so they battle constantly against the air con which returns the effort, and the energy costs go to the consumer.

 

Best place to site one then would be below a window so you can let the hot air out on warm days, and shut your thick curtains in winter to keep it in.

[mickspangle]

I can see the benefit of filling freezers with leftovers and reduced to clear winnings, but any savings need to be offset by the cost of powering the freezer - if you're charging batteries from an engine or generator you might actually spend more money keeping things frozen than if you buy fresh and chuck out your leftovers?

 

Eta: in my case I see giving leftovers to the ducks as an insurance policy in case I need to delve into my floating food bank when times are hard...

Edited August 7, 2013 by mickspangle

[NorthwichTrader]

 

Yeah, the fridge would also need to be disconnected from the batts and to the power supply instead, eg with a removable connector or a switch of some sort.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Just while I'm getting my head around this, can I ask what is possibly a stupid question, and that is...would linking two of these Dell power supplies create 24v, or are there 24v versions anyway?

Also, when I use my power pack on my Dell Computer, it gets hellish hot, are they up to 24/7 use, or is this a totally different product?

Many thanks again, Stuart