Ordered to Return to Moorings

[carlt]

 

 

You seem to be basing your argument on normal practice for proper boats and yes I see your point, but will the judge?. Would you feel confident the judge would accept your argument if you owned a narrowboat? It appears to me you are asking the judge to create different rules for different types of boat.

 

 

Just because something may not be normal practice does not put it outside the law.

 

I would argue that it would never get to the point where a judge would even need to make a decision because, before relaunching my boat, I will be applying for a licence with the location of the place where I can lawfully and reasonably leave my boat clearly marked on the application form and I will invite CRT to send someone down to inspect the site, with the boat in situ, and allow them to offer their opinion.

 

Given the effort I have gone to, in order to secure a place I can lawfully and reasonably leave my boat I cannot see them denying me a licence.

 

There was a fat narrowboat at Aldeburgh, btw, and it looked very out of place.

 

This boat is kept (reasonably and lawfully) on the hard next to my current boat.

 

 

Admittedly it is a narrow boat, not a narrowboat but close enough.

[cotswoldsman]

Last year I could take a winter mooring at Foxton or Marsworth Visitor Moorings there were spaces reserved for the purpose close to the facilities, can I get a winter mooring there or not . Reading CRTs definition on their web site it looks like this option has been quietley removed.

 

In the recent years several boaters I know have taken winter moorings on VM's on purpose to br moored against a solid edge , good towpath, and able to access facilities without moving their boat even if iced in. Now it would appear they will have to bridge hop to do this whereas before they would have paid. Thus what little revenue CRT may have got will be lost and turn a couple of boaters I have spoken to into potential overstayers. The fact that the price has dropped is irrelevant as there is now little incentive to pay for some.

OK lets step back a bit. CRT were going to stop Winter Moorings on the basis that the income did not justify the expense and were just going to point boaters in the direction of marinas. In the past Boaters (including myself) thought Winter Moorings were bad value for money the one thing CRT were not prepared to do was reduce the price and offer the same type of moorings. So the choice now is a simple charge for 28 days of £100 or less if you take a 3 or 5 month Winter Mooring. You chose where you wish to moor with certain restrictions such as limited time Visitor Moorings. (London still has the old system)

I am amazed at your statement concerning less boats taking up Winter Moorings as CRT have had more inquiries at this time of year than they have had for the last 3 years. The couple of boaters you have spoken to who wish to become over stayers are welcome to do so as is any boater during the summer but they will leave themselves open to enforcement but then we all know that. For those that want all facilities and ringing bells can find a Marina.

[Tuscan]

OK lets step back a bit. CRT were going to stop Winter Moorings on the basis that the income did not justify the expense and were just going to point boaters in the direction of marinas. In the past Boaters (including myself) thought Winter Moorings were bad value for money the one thing CRT were not prepared to do was reduce the price and offer the same type of moorings. So the choice now is a simple charge for 28 days of £100 or less if you take a 3 or 5 month Winter Mooring. You chose where you wish to moor with certain restrictions such as limited time Visitor Moorings. (London still has the old system)

I am amazed at your statement concerning less boats taking up Winter Moorings as CRT have had more inquiries at this time of year than they have had for the last 3 years. The couple of boaters you have spoken to who wish to become over stayers are welcome to do so as is any boater during the summer but they will leave themselves open to enforcement but then we all know that. For those that want all facilities and ringing bells can find a Marina.

 

Thanks John

 

So you can confirm that those who wish to winter on visitor moorings close to facilities as was previously the case can now no longer do so. This was my question.

 

I do not use winter moorings so have no axe to grind however some boaters obviously do not agree with these changes that CRT are making even if it would appear that you do. These are not people that want marinas and free wifi just boaters who wonder they are now no longer allowed to moor like they were allowed to do last year and why CRT felt the need to withdraw this option.

 

Personally I see no problem with the cheaper Roving Winter Permit either,

[cotswoldsman]

Thanks John

 

So you can confirm that those who wish to winter on visitor moorings close to facilities as was previously the case can now no longer do so. This was my question.

 

I do not use winter moorings so have no axe to grind however some boaters obviously do not agree with these changes that CRT are making even if it would appear that you do. These are not people that want marinas and free wifi just boaters who wonder they are now no longer allowed to moor like they were allowed to do last year and why CRT felt the need to withdraw this option.

 

Personally I see no problem with the cheaper Roving Winter Permit either,

Please do not shoot the messenger!! CRT felt the need to change the system due to very low take up outside London. Outside London accounted for less than 25% but required 75% of the work marking out moorings. As I said the London Winter Moorings have not changed. I guess if this new system soes not work it is back to the drawing board or no Winter Moorings in the future. As we all know you can not please all the boaters all the time. I for one will take a Winter Mooring during Decemeber and january and I have not taken a Winter mooring for 4 years.

[Paul C]

Please do not shoot the messenger!! CRT felt the need to change the system due to very low take up outside London. Outside London accounted for less than 25% but required 75% of the work marking out moorings. As I said the London Winter Moorings have not changed. I guess if this new system soes not work it is back to the drawing board or no Winter Moorings in the future. As we all know you can not please all the boaters all the time. I for one will take a Winter Mooring during Decemeber and january and I have not taken a Winter mooring for 4 years.

 

Can I ask the obvious question, which is: why didn't CRT simply change the system by adjusting the price to something reasonable? And if the costs of running the scheme etc were high, streamline the process so it didn't need so much work to administer. After all its not that complicated a scheme.

[cotswoldsman]

 

Can I ask the obvious question, which is: why didn't CRT simply change the system by adjusting the price to something reasonable? And if the costs of running the scheme etc were high, streamline the process so it didn't need so much work to administer. After all its not that complicated a scheme.

Paul when did you last take a Winter Mooring?

[Paul C]

Paul when did you last take a Winter Mooring?

 

I don't understand - why do I need to have taken one, to be interested in the discussion topic?

[cotswoldsman]

 

I don't understand - why do I need to have taken one, to be interested in the discussion topic?

Ok you carry on discussing.

[Chris Pink]

Please do not shoot the messenger!! CRT felt the need to change the system due to very low take up outside London. Outside London accounted for less than 25% but required 75% of the work marking out moorings. As I said the London Winter Moorings have not changed. I guess if this new system soes not work it is back to the drawing board or no Winter Moorings in the future. As we all know you can not please all the boaters all the time. I for one will take a Winter Mooring during Decemeber and january and I have not taken a Winter mooring for 4 years.

 

This really is some kind of looking-glass world.

 

"the cost of administering a winter mooring" - let's have a brief look at this. On the Kennet and Avon this appeared to be one laminated piece of A4 per mooring and a cable tie plus sending someone to 'install it'. Then's there's collecting the money.

 

 

Two people I know well cruise all summer and like to moor in Bath for the winter, retired, getting on a bit, like the convenience etc. Perfect CRT customer profile, not hippies, traditional not particularly shiny but well kept non-controversial boats Last year I believe they paid £1,200 each for a winter mooring. A little bit of a moan about how CRT try and up the greed every year but broadly happy to pay.

 

So - for these two boats, the cost of putting up two laminated signs - which if you're on an economy drive could easily be done whilst doing something else, i know, i know, that would mean ascribing some efficiency to CRT but let's cut them some slack.

 

And collecting the money. Now, any company that can't cost-effectively collect £2,400 (and the rest) for this piddling bit of work doesn't deserve to be in business at all. There. £2,400 for doing nothing at all, nothing, making an entry in a ledger and processing a payment.

 

This is sheer and utter madness. The lunatics run the asylum. I really really cannot find the words to say how utterly utterly stupid this is.

 

Now come on somebody.... tell me what I'm missing. The £5,000 bill for risk assessment and viability consultants.... What?

And no, John, I have never taken a winter mooring, I already have one thank you.

[cotswoldsman]

 

This really is some kind of looking-glass world.

 

"the cost of administering a winter mooring" - let's have a brief look at this. On the Kennet and Avon this appeared to be one laminated piece of A4 per mooring and a cable tie plus sending someone to 'install it'. Then's there's collecting the money.

 

 

Two people I know well cruise all summer and like to moor in Bath for the winter, retired, getting on a bit, like the convenience etc. Perfect CRT customer profile, not hippies, traditional not particularly shiny but well kept non-controversial boats Last year I believe they paid £1,200 each for a winter mooring. A little bit of a moan about how CRT try and up the greed every year but broadly happy to pay.

 

So - for these two boats, the cost of putting up two laminated signs - which if you're on an economy drive could easily be done whilst doing something else, i know, i know, that would mean ascribing some efficiency to CRT but let's cut them some slack.

 

And collecting the money. Now, any company that can't cost-effectively collect £2,400 (and the rest) for this piddling bit of work doesn't deserve to be in business at all. There. £2,400 for doing nothing at all, nothing, making an entry in a ledger and processing a payment.

 

This is sheer and utter madness. The lunatics run the asylum. I really really cannot find the words to say how utterly utterly stupid this is.

 

Now come on somebody.... tell me what I'm missing. The £5,000 bill for risk assessment and viability consultants.... What?

 

And no, John, I have never taken a winter mooring, I already have one thank you.

Messenger!! You make some valid points. I seem to remember some of the VM in Bath were 14 day but I might be wrong.

Oh and any VM already signed as Winter Moorings (Crick for example) will fall into this scheme.

[luctor et emergo]

Most of the winter moorings along the K&A on this side are either VM's, or unused permanent moorings...

 

That's because they have the convinient rings and bollards, to tie the notices to.

 

Top of head: Bath VM at top lock, Bath 72 hour moorings at Darlington wharf, permanent moorings at Bathampton, VM's at Claverton, VM's at Dundas (?), visitor moorings west of Avoncliff, VM's at Bradford on Avon.

 

Most of which were empty, apart from the ones at the Top Lock in Bath.

 

As noticed by a local boater, on a weekly basis. Not by a keyboard boater, on the other side of the country.

 

Just to add. Those Visitor moorings were officialy out of bounds for those of us who keep moving during the winter, effectively making Bath a no go area during those months..

[Doorman]

I would consider this to be a dumper

 

Hang on a minute!

 

We moor there quite happily and take umbrage at being called a 'dumper'. Now where's that angry emotion when you need him?

[luctor et emergo]

And you can not call a boat with a full compliment of matching fenders, a 'dumper'.

 

Some people are such snobs...

 

 

 

 

<As for using that image, the owner of that boat may object to his property being posted here like this, being ridiculed? Or did you seek permission to publish it?>

[Doorman]

<As for using that image, the owner of that boat may object to his property being posted here like this, being ridiculed? Or did you seek permission to publish it?>

What do you mean 'may'?

 

I just have!

[luctor et emergo]

What do you mean 'may'?

 

I just have!

Silly me.. I didn't notice the genuine riveted cabin. I blame the small screen of my phone.

[Grace and Favour]

Silly me.. I didn't notice the genuine riveted cabin. I blame the small screen of my phone.

If you had a proper riveted small screen on your phone it would have made the picture much clearer

[luctor et emergo]

If you had a proper riveted small screen on your phone it would have made the picture much clearer

True, but I could only afford so many features for my phone.

[cotswoldsman]

Ah my camera doubles up as a phone.

[Tuscan]

This really is some kind of looking-glass world.

 

"the cost of administering a winter mooring" - let's have a brief look at this. On the Kennet and Avon this appeared to be one laminated piece of A4 per mooring and a cable tie plus sending someone to 'install it'. Then's there's collecting the money.

 

 

Two people I know well cruise all summer and like to moor in Bath for the winter, retired, getting on a bit, like the convenience etc. Perfect CRT customer profile, not hippies, traditional not particularly shiny but well kept non-controversial boats Last year I believe they paid £1,200 each for a winter mooring. A little bit of a moan about how CRT try and up the greed every year but broadly happy to pay.

 

So - for these two boats, the cost of putting up two laminated signs - which if you're on an economy drive could easily be done whilst doing something else, i know, i know, that would mean ascribing some efficiency to CRT but let's cut them some slack.

 

And collecting the money. Now, any company that can't cost-effectively collect £2,400 (and the rest) for this piddling bit of work doesn't deserve to be in business at all. There. £2,400 for doing nothing at all, nothing, making an entry in a ledger and processing a payment.

 

This is sheer and utter madness. The lunatics run the asylum. I really really cannot find the words to say how utterly utterly stupid this is.

 

Now come on somebody.... tell me what I'm missing. The £5,000 bill for risk assessment and viability consultants.... What? And no, John, I have never taken a winter mooring, I already have one thank you.

Thats I guess what I was going to say , the two I was talking to CC are not particularly flush but like to use a VM for the winter because they can tie to rings , be close to the bank, and a solid tow path which makes it easy to trolley a water container or cassette when the weather turns, get to shops etc. they don't like the price but pay it as they like the towpath not a marina. Why not to tier pricing more takers of winter moorings of both types more cash for CRT can't be that difficult.

[bassplayer]

Looking through many threads there seems to be a lot of hostility between CC's and boaters with permanent moorings.

 

I'm a CC and had a choice like most others. The reason I decided not to have a permanent mooring was very simple. I didn't see the point of being stuck in the same area to justify paying for a mooring.

 

It seems to me that most of the criticism us CC's get is born out of jealousy. "Why should we pay more when you don't". It's not just about money. CC's do more to help people on the canals and sort out problems because we are out there using the canal rather than sitting around doing nothing.

 

Rant over!

[MtB]

IS it possible that taken as a whole, that time spent administering the winter moorings scheme by 'the moorings team' staff generates a lower cash return than regular online moorings, hour for hour?

 

If so, then I can imagine a manager sitting in his comfy office declaring the winter moorings scheme is not cost effective.

 

 

MtB

[Tuscan]

MtB you have just explained why the reserve price is so high and so many empty LTM's think of the time this saves not having to sort out the paperwork collect the dues etc, etc.

[Arthur Marshall]

Looking through many threads there seems to be a lot of hostility between CC's and boaters with permanent moorings.

No there isn't - we just discuss things in occasionally a heated manner. I've never noticed any hostility out on the water. The net is different!

[Chop!]

 

If by 'dumper' you mean this boat has been dumped I would disagree with you. It looks to me like somebody's home. It's not to my taste, or yours - obviously.

 

But are you suggesting there should be minimum standards to keep a boat on the canal?

 

At least said 'dumper' keeps his stuff on his boat not on the towpath

Edited July 6, 2013 by Chop!

[MtB]

MtB you have just explained why the reserve price is so high and so many empty LTM's think of the time this saves not having to sort out the paperwork collect the dues etc, etc.

Yes funny you should extrapolate to this, I was planning a post separately proposing this as an explanation for the change in policy on reserve prices!

 

Taken to extreme, lets say they succeed in doubling the price of online moorings, so the market working the way it does, means 50% of them become unsold and vacant. Half as many troublesome 'customers accounts' to administer, debt chase, etc, for exactly the same income. RESULT!

 

PLUS, they can now get rid of miles of towpath moorings that need to be maintained with adequate depth, mooring rings etc and let them return to wild condition. Label them 'no mooring, nature reserve' even, as they have started doing on the K&A.

 

MtB