beta38 charging problem

[pelicanafloat]

Am wondering which way to proceed. Battery monitor indicating 65% this morning. Started up the engine to charge the batteries and no hint of squeal, no attempt to charge and red light on and alarm sounding.

 

Took dogs for a walk to think it over .... yesterday as per normal, cruised all day and battery bank charged OK. This problem occurred once before towards the end of our winter stay (when we were mainly hooked up to electric mains), when we cruised over to the pump out area. I checked over the wiring noting there seemed a very slight amount of corrosion where the main positive cable from the alternator was combined with the battery bank cable on the isolated stud adj to engine. I checked out the whole wiring circuit and cleaned and tightened and problem went away, till today.....

 

Came back, made coffee, did a quick search in this forum, and one thing that I read, most illuminating, check out the battery isolator switch! Ping! I recall that the rain came in yesterday onto my raincoat and it was wet on the bottom .... just above the isolator!

 

So, before I do anything else, I just start the engine for no other reason than to check it not charging, and light off, engine running at 1000rpm, no squealing, and alternator sweet as you like sending 101amps into battery bank!

 

So, am I right to assume it the switch, and if so, how best to clean the contacts? I've bought a can of WD-40 fast drying contact cleaner, and thought I'd wait until batteries are charged to about 85%, then turn everything off and give the switch a blast of the cleaner. Should I buy another switch?

 

The system is a simple alternator feeding directly into battery bank via victron link box with Mega fuses. Checked it all out last time and found nothing really obvious. I assumed the cleaning of terminals etc resolved the issue, so I'm hoping the problem isn't going to become frustrating and expensive!

 

Any thoughts?

[Chris Pink]

what sort of isolator switch, some kinds are rubbish?

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

look to putting a shroud over the switch to protect from rainwater, use Vasiline to protect contacts.

[pelicanafloat]

what sort of isolator switch, some kinds are rubbish?

All I can say is it was a high amp switch, expensive and neat :-)

 

look to putting a shroud over the switch to protect from rainwater, use Vasiline to protect contacts.

The switch is inside a cupboard with the on/off part sticking out under the steps leading into the boat. I imagined it fairly waterproof ....

[ditchcrawler]

Am wondering which way to proceed. Battery monitor indicating 65% this morning. Started up the engine to charge the batteries and no hint of squeal, no attempt to charge and red light on and alarm sounding.

 

Any thoughts?

This would make me think alternator rather than isolator

[pelicanafloat]

Hmmm, now that sounds as if it might turn out costly. Whatever is happening it is inconsistent so the idea of it being allied to some sort of water contact problem appealed. The alternator charging seems to be consistent once it up and running. Ok, so how do i test out the alternator, do it myself with guidance from here, or phone beta marine??

 

Cheers!

[Tony Brooks]

Hmmm, now that sounds as if it might turn out costly. Whatever is happening it is inconsistent so the idea of it being allied to some sort of water contact problem appealed. The alternator charging seems to be consistent once it up and running. Ok, so how do i test out the alternator, do it myself with guidance from here, or phone beta marine??

 

Cheers!

 

If it started then the master switch is unlikely to be the problem. if it was then flat battery symptoms upon starting would be more likely.

 

No red light before and after cranking is typical of worn brushes and they can be intermittent before they give up so, depending upon the alternator, it might just be a case of replacing the regulator that has brushes attached. Many can be done in situ. This assumes the bulb and wires are OK.

 

 

Testing.

 

Turn on ignition.

 

No red light - pull D+ (thin warning lamp wire) off alternator and connect to metal on the engine/alternator.

 

LAMP ON - Brushes or sliprings faulty (could be the rotor but this is rare).

 

LAMP OFF - check bulb and wiring.

 

If the bulb is on but goes out when you rev the engine but the batteries still do not charge make sure all the terminals are tight and clean (including master switch and batteries). If they are OK it is probably an internal diode fault so take the alternator to your local auto electrical specialist for overhaul.

[pelicanafloat]

 

If it started then the master switch is unlikely to be the problem. if it was then flat battery symptoms upon starting would be more likely.

 

No red light before and after cranking is typical of worn brushes and they can be intermittent before they give up so, depending upon the alternator, it might just be a case of replacing the regulator that has brushes attached. Many can be done in situ. This assumes the bulb and wires are OK.

 

 

Testing.

 

Turn on ignition.

 

No red light - pull D+ (thin warning lamp wire) off alternator and connect to metal on the engine/alternator.

 

LAMP ON - Brushes or sliprings faulty (could be the rotor but this is rare).

 

LAMP OFF - check bulb and wiring.

 

If the bulb is on but goes out when you rev the engine but the batteries still do not charge make sure all the terminals are tight and clean (including master switch and batteries). If they are OK it is probably an internal diode fault so take the alternator to your local auto electrical specialist for overhaul.

My thanks for the test procedure. First thing this morning, ignition on, all lights glowing and upon starting the engine the red battery not being charged remained on despite increasing the revs. Not a hint of the alternator kicking in. Moved boat to other side of canal to water point and suddenly engine revs would sound like under load and red light would fade off and on as alternator made about five attempts before finally managing to start charging, and on starting the engine a number of times later, the alternator remained working ok....... I am now thinking that the inability to excite the alternator, and the increasing likelihood of it not working points towards inner defects. I seem to recall that this particular model, an 100amp Iskra (?), can be separated and a new electronics pack put in place of the defective bit, (thereby saving a lot of money) if my thinking is correct?

[Tony Brooks]

My thanks for the test procedure. First thing this morning, ignition on, all lights glowing and upon starting the engine the red battery not being charged remained on despite increasing the revs. Not a hint of the alternator kicking in. Moved boat to other side of canal to water point and suddenly engine revs would sound like under load and red light would fade off and on as alternator made about five attempts before finally managing to start charging, and on starting the engine a number of times later, the alternator remained working ok....... I am now thinking that the inability to excite the alternator, and the increasing likelihood of it not working points towards inner defects. I seem to recall that this particular model, an 100amp Iskra (?), can be separated and a new electronics pack put in place of the defective bit, (thereby saving a lot of money) if my thinking is correct?

 

That sounds very odd. If you have a warning lamp the alternator should energise. The most likely cause of these symptoms that I an think of after the belt has been checked would be a short circuit to metal or a negative connection on the wire between the warning lamp and alternator with engine vibrating temporally stopping the short.

 

I am assuming this is a single alternator engine or a twin alternator one with TWO warning lamps. If its a twin alternator engine with a single warning lamp then remove the existing warning lamp wire from the alternator in question and start up. Set to about 1000 rpm and carefully so as to avoid shorts use a short length of cable to link the alternator's main output terminal (or battery pos.) to the alternator terminal you have just pulled the warning lamp wire off. If it energises every time then fit another warning lamp. How you do this depends upon which alternator it is. If its the domestic one I would prefer you to also use a rely (email me, not message, for a diagram).

 

It could be a poor connection inside the alternator or even a short circuit but by and large alternators are very reliable once they have lasted a few months. If you get a warning lamp then it is not so likely to be brushes.

 

I think the Iskra alternators do have a voltage regulator/brush set that can be removed with the alternator on the engine but with your symptoms I would be inclined to take the whole thing to a specialist for testing once you have ruled out a wiring fault.

 

Please triple check all the connections on the main charging circuit and make sure there is no voltdrop across the master switch (voltmeter across the switch terminals when charging - expect less than 0.5V) because no warning lamp and no charge could indicate the alternator has energised but it is not connected to a significant load and if that sort of thing is intermittent you risk damaging the alternator.

[pelicanafloat]

Thought I'd wait to see ...... I phoned beta marine and they very helpful. I was informed that there is a relay on the interior of the instrument panel that can become "sticky" through condensation etc, and they asked for my location and then they phoned ahead to nearest supplier to ensure they had the part in stock. I collected the relay, fitted it, and since then, no problems ........ :-)

[Tony Brooks]

Thought I'd wait to see ...... I phoned beta marine and they very helpful. I was informed that there is a relay on the interior of the instrument panel that can become "sticky" through condensation etc, and they asked for my location and then they phoned ahead to nearest supplier to ensure they had the part in stock. I collected the relay, fitted it, and since then, no problems ........ :-)

 

I'd love to know the purpose of that relay on a single alternator boat. If it was mine I think the relay would have been removed form the circuit to keep it simple. I would use a relay on a twin alternator boat though.

 

Pleased you are sorted.

[n.b.Goldie]

 

I'd love to know the purpose of that relay on a single alternator boat. If it was mine I think the relay would have been removed form the circuit to keep it simple. I would use a relay on a twin alternator boat though.

 

Pleased you are sorted.

Being a beta 38 it will have two alternators, they come that way as standard. Perhaps some confusion over the op's wording "The system is a simple alternator feeding directly into battery bank". Perhaps this leads us to assume it is a single alternator whereas this simple alternator is the domestic, the engine having its own.

[trackman]

Good for the team at Beta anyway! They have been their usual helpful selves. Neil is the man I usually deal with, and it seems nothing is too much trouble. He's a boater himself, though on the lumpy water mostly I believe. It does make a real difference to the approach you get from someone if they boat themselves, I find.

[Tony Brooks]

Being a beta 38 it will have two alternators, they come that way as standard. Perhaps some confusion over the op's wording "The system is a simple alternator feeding directly into battery bank". Perhaps this leads us to assume it is a single alternator whereas this simple alternator is the domestic, the engine having its own.

 

 

So that explains the relay.

 

The OP and many other questioners may well have got a far better response if gave all the information rather than just what they think is relevant. I know that in many cases they do not know but they must know it is important to specify single or twin alternators in this case.

[pelicanafloat]

 

 

So that explains the relay.

 

The OP and many other questioners may well have got a far better response if gave all the information rather than just what they think is relevant. I know that in many cases they do not know but they must know it is important to specify single or twin alternators in this case.

Interesting comment! I might be an OAP but to demote me to an OP seems a bit rich. As for giving relevant info, I'm sure we 'OP's would be more than happy to give loads of relevant info only some of us don't like to smother the question with too much irrelevant stuff. Not being an expert in these things I just assumed that by saying it was a Beta38, the fact that it had two alternators was established, so my apologies for any lack on my part.

 

As it happens, the set up is that the main alternator delivers only to the domestic battery bank, and the smaller alternator just charges up the starter battery. Therefore I assumed my original assertion that, like me, the system was simple was sufficient explanation. Now, perhaps you might explain why it is that the alternator needs a relay? Am always happy to learn....

[Tony Brooks]

Interesting comment! I might be an OAP but to demote me to an OP seems a bit rich. As for giving relevant info, I'm sure we 'OP's would be more than happy to give loads of relevant info only some of us don't like to smother the question with too much irrelevant stuff. Not being an expert in these things I just assumed that by saying it was a Beta38, the fact that it had two alternators was established, so my apologies for any lack on my part.

 

As it happens, the set up is that the main alternator delivers only to the domestic battery bank, and the smaller alternator just charges up the starter battery. Therefore I assumed my original assertion that, like me, the system was simple was sufficient explanation. Now, perhaps you might explain why it is that the alternator needs a relay? Am always happy to learn....

 

 

OP is an accepted abbreviation for Original Poster.

 

Until recently I had use of a a Beta 38 with single alternator and once a boat is a few years old it is impossible for anyone not familiar with the boat to know exactly what equipment its has.

 

Nowhere in the conversation did you confirm it is a twin alternator setup, in fact you said:-

 

The system is a simple alternator feeding directly into battery bank via victron link box with Mega fuses.

 

Note the "a simple". That's singular, not plural.

 

I have wasted enough time on this conversation and have explained why the relay is a good idea elsewhere - go search for it if you really want to know.

[pelicanafloat]

I forgot to mention I'm Left handed, dyslexic, and I love relays, just a shame that the baton must have got dropped cause the alternator having difficulty getting energised this morning. Perhaps it feels it hasn't received the right attention!

 

No matter, I will try in future to bring more relevance into my posts, and perhaps some of you 'OPR's could bring just a tad graciousness into the response. You know who are :-)

 

I shall go phone friendly Beta Marine as soon as I've finished these delightful mushrooms! I wonder, are they open at weekends?

 

Am now putting on tin hat and applying sun tan

[Tony Brooks]

Somewhere along the main wiring harness from the instrument panel and engine you should find a large multi-way connector in a plastic sleeve thing. When these get loose or corrode they give all sorts of funny symptoms. I would suggest that in many cases this is more likely than a relay fault. I can not tell you where it is on any particular boat but it may be low down and to one side of the engine. If you find it and twist it about and ten the alternator charges you can be pretty sure it needs to come apart for cleaning, possibly gently squeezing up the female side little and treating with silicon grease or Vaseline.

[pelicanafloat]

Somewhere along the main wiring harness from the instrument panel and engine you should find a large multi-way connector in a plastic sleeve thing. When these get loose or corrode they give all sorts of funny symptoms. I would suggest that in many cases this is more likely than a relay fault. I can not tell you where it is on any particular boat but it may be low down and to one side of the engine. If you find it and twist it about and ten the alternator charges you can be pretty sure it needs to come apart for cleaning, possibly gently squeezing up the female side little and treating with silicon grease or Vaseline.

Ty for that, we are cruising (and charging) for the next few hours. Shall have a look at the wiring loom .....

[pelicanafloat]

Didn't really want to write this. I checked over the connection (classic case of it right in front of my nose, perfect place for easy access and inspection but only if you note its existence :-) , and found it to be as good as new. I applied some contact fluid and refitted the connector. I guess it would seem that the culprit has to be the alternator. All cables and connections look secure.

 

All is not lost however. I do have 370 watts of solar panel on the roof, and days like these I get something like 100aH of solar energy, enough for my needs, and if the weather deteriorates I can start up the generator .... meanwhile, I think a call to Beta for nearest stockist of alternator replacement seems imminent.

[nicknorman]

I believe the purpose of the relay in question (which is located in the vicinity of the instrument panel) is to "turn on" the domestic alternator, in the same way that the key switch turns on power to the engine alternator- so when you do the latter, as well as providing excitation power to the engine alternator from the engine battery, you also activate the relay which then provides power from the domestic battery to excite the domestic alternator. If the relay isn't working, or if there is something wrong in the circuit to and from the panel to the engine, this won't work and the domestic alternator won't be excited. Note that, on our Beta 43 at least, these connections are not via the multi-way connector previously mentioned, but rather by a 2 way connector which is probably located in a similar place near the engine.

 

Before splashing out on an expensive new alternator, I would check using a multimeter that with the ignition switched on, there is voltage on the D+ terminal on the domestic alternator. If its at 0v there is something wrong with the relay or the wiring.

[Tony Brooks]

I would add that almost every major town has at least one specialist who can test and repair alternators, probably far cheaper than a new "Beta" one. They may even do part exchange. I am sure a local member will be able to tell you if they know the area you are in.

[pelicanafloat]

Thanks for the additional Information. I think it worth a positive response. I sprayed some special WD40 contact cleaning spray into all the open areas on the alternator. I allowed it to dry off and ever since, 10 days or so, the alternator has kicked in immediately with no hint of dithering. I think the problem seems/seemed almost as if it a consequence of some aspect of condensation. Anyway, I am firmly convinced it resides within the confines of the alternator. I expect that now I have written further the problem will reappear :-)

[RobinJ]

All I can say is it was a high amp switch, expensive and neat :-)

 

The switch is inside a cupboard with the on/off part sticking out under the steps leading into the boat. I imagined it fairly waterproof ....

 

Is it one of the red ones!

 

Where does the main cable from the alternator go, isolator or direct to battery?

 

The red isolators can wear, you can usually get a response by pushing the key in. As they wear they tend to arc and make matters worse!

 

If alternator wired direct to battery, isolator would not make any difference - this presumably also means ignition doesn't go though isolator either?

[nicknorman]

It could perhaps have been a stuck brush that the WD40 has freed. However, this tends to happen when the brushes are approaching the limit of wear. I'm sure you want to leave as is if its working, but bear in mind that a new set of brushes is pretty cheap. However, operating for a long time with brushes in poor condition can case spark erosion of the slip rings, necessitating a more costly overhaul.