Inland Waterways Helmsman Instructors Course?

[Richard10002]

 

 

Hi,

 

As part of my "bucket list", as well as preparation for early retirement, I want to take the Inland Waterways Helmsmans Instructors Course - There is one at Willow Wren in early September if it isn't booked up yet. Looks like there might be 4 a year, or so, in various places.

 

1) There is a question on the application form regarding Inland Waterways Experience - I did the IWHC in 2006, bought our boat in 2011, delivered it from Burton on Trent, (92 miles and 66 locks). Since then I have done a few trips on the Bridgewater, and have more or less lived aboard since last August.

 

The above doesn't feel like enough experience to me, so I thought I would ask here how it might be considered by The RYA.

 

2) I do have some additional boating experience as follows:

 

Merchant Navy Cadet and 3rd officer, 1978-1984, gained 2nd Mates Foreign Going Certificate.

 

Sailed as crew on a variety of yachts since around 1977. Longest trip as crew: Kinsale to Madera to Baiona 2004.

 

Bought my own yacht 2006 and sailed it from UK to Malta, and back in 2009. Gained RYA Offshore Yachtmaster Certificate in June 2007.

 

I was booked on a RYA Coastal Skipper Instructors Course in Jan 2008, but ilness got a grip of me, and my whole life has changed, (I've recovered from the ilness).

 

3) I don't particularly plan to actually instruct immediately. I mainly want to see if I can qualify, so I can make it a part of my future plans. In the intervening years, (6 or 7), I'll aim to gain any extra necessary experience, and consider the best way of being an instructor

 

I'd be really grateful if anyone with any particular experience of the rules, the course, being an instructor, running a school, etc., could comment on my plan.

 

I appreciate that I could do a 1st aid course, complete the form and send it off with my £380, and see what happens, but it's always handy to be forewarned and prepared.

 

Many Thanks

 

Richard

[RichardH]

The course is very good. What you need to be able to demonstrate above all is that you can impart your knowledge to the candidate without 'doing it' The first thing that they said to me was that 'if you touch the controls at any point it is an instant fail'

 

There is a market for running a school but it is limited. We receive on average 1 call per week. That said, we don't advertise in WW or CB but are listed on the RYA website and via our website

Edited May 12, 2013 by RichardH

[Glynn]

We took the course with Richard, excellent it was too !.

Anyone considering it would be wise to do it.

[Tam & Di]

I did the IWHC in 2006, bought our boat in 2011, delivered it from Burton on Trent, (92 miles and 66 locks). Since then I have done a few trips on the Bridgewater, and have more or less lived aboard since last August

 

Assuming your 92 miles was at 4 mph that is about 23 hours, then 66 locks at 10 minutes each is another 11, about 34 in all. I know it is not necessary to be able to do something yourself in order to teach it, but that does seem to be a very meagre background in inland boating for you to act as instructor. I think instructors should have a good wide in depth experience themselves in the area they are instructing - your yacht experience would not in itself be much use.

 

Yes, you can probably teach the basics to someone with less knowledge than you have. But what bad habits do you have? Maybe none, but do you know? Could you correct theirs? Could you answer questions from trainees about cruising on rivers?, wide canals?, narrow canals? with a wide boat, a narrow boat? cruising single handed? What if they are proposing to take their boat to France on the strength of their IWHC and a CEVNI pass?

 

I obviously do not know your level of skill or your teaching ability, and you might make an excellent instructor. You would also of course have to work through an accreditted school which should impose another level of checks and balances. Those are my reservations about it though.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Tam & Di

[Dalslandia]

I have 40 years, 33 as skipper, on a canal, probably 57000 locks, that's about 20000 hours. (+ some winters on carco ships)

But humbely, all the experiance that sits like a feeling in the spine, how to teach other people? I have some times help from a marine canal pilot, (25 years as a pilot on a different canal,) and sometimes his son that know is working as first officer on a oil tanker in north see, that worked on my boat from he was 15 in the summers, I trust these guys, but what a terror it is to stand on the side, and not have the controls in my hands, very difficult not to interfere, better then stay on land, operating the locks...

 

Jan

[Richard10002]

Tam: I tend to agree with you, hence the question. I don't really want to know if it's the right thing to do.... I want to know if it's possible to do it.

 

I won't be letting myself loose on the general public until I'm pretty sure they will get what they're paying for - in fact, i wouldnt last long as an instructor if they didnt. And it is unlikely to be for several years yet.

[Tam & Di]

Tam: I tend to agree with you, hence the question. I don't really want to know if it's the right thing to do.... I want to know if it's possible to do it.

 

I was authorised as an instructor in 1996 and no-one asked about my prior experience at that time. It was certainly infinitely greater than those who accredited me anyway. They may (hopefully) have changed the requirements since then. The RYA did once send someone to carry out the annual inspection of me and my school who had 2-years of narrowboat experience and ran a school of his own. I refused ever to accept such a situation again, but the worst thing about it was that the RYA thought that to be acceptable.

 

Tam

[bargemast]

I was authorised as an instructor in 1996 and no-one asked about my prior experience at that time. It was certainly infinitely greater than those who accredited me anyway. They may (hopefully) have changed the requirements since then. The RYA did once send someone to carry out the annual inspection of me and my school who had 2-years of narrowboat experience and ran a school of his own. I refused ever to accept such a situation again, but the worst thing about it was that the RYA thought that to be acceptable.

 

Tam

 

In the days that I was operating my freycinet day-trip/restaurant barge, I had visits of the Commission de Surveillance every other year, and evrytime there where new guys that showed up that knew nothing, or at the most very little about barge handling, I often had to go for a test-run with them, during which I would have to do all sorts of manoeuvering exercises to prove that my barge was in good condition to navigate in safety.

 

At several visits, with the river flooding I was asked to do things that would have surely lead to very dangerous situations, and I refused to do what I was ordered to do, I would just abandon the wheel and say:"You better show me what you want me to do", and then it worked out (no surprise to me) that they were not even licenced to operate a barge themselves, and most things they were asking for were written down in a book with general rules, where nothing was written about rivers in flood etc.

 

If written several complains about the inspectors that were sent out to do those safety tests, and had the last few visits done by a guy that was a bargees son, and had worked on barges himself, had the licence and knew what he was asking me to do.

 

I suppose that I was spoilt coming from the Netherlands, where everybody involved in this sort of thing is qualified themselfs, and so are the members of the very often seen Water-Police there.

 

Peter.

Edited May 19, 2013 by bargemast

[Tam & Di]

In the days that I was operating my freycinet day-trip/restaurant barge, I had visits of the Commission de Surveillance every other year, and evrytime there where new guys that showed up that knew nothing, or at the most very little about barge handling, I often had to go for a test-run with them, during which I would have to do all sorts of manoeuvering exercises to prove that my barge was in good condition to navigate in safety.

 

At several visits, with the river flooding I was asked to do things that would have surely lead to very dangerous situations, and I refused to do what I was ordered to do, I would just abandon the wheel and say:"You better show me what you want me to do", and then it worked out (no surprise to me) that they were not even licenced to operate a barge themselves, and most things they were asking for were written down in a book with general rules, where nothing was written about rivers in flood etc.

 

 

Not dissimilar to my experience when the péniche école registration system changed in 2008. We used to have inspectors from the Bureau de Surveillance at Douai who came to Friesland to administer the exam for the CEVNI code, but they were ex working bateliers and if I said the trainees were OK at handling the ship they just accepted my word for that as we'd built up a trust. When the system changed in 2008 we then came under Dunkerque, and we had to take the big white chief and his assistant out on the boat to become re-authorised. I asked him if he wanted to steer for a while and he was pleased as punch, but when I asked him if he had a licence he had to admit rather sheepishly that he didn't - his was only for high-speed little motor cruisers around the coast, and he'd never seen a little Freycinet lock before.

 

Tam

Edited May 19, 2013 by Tam & Di

[bargemast]

Not dissimilar to my experience when the péniche école registration system changed in 2008. We used to have inspectors from the Bureau de Surveillance at Douai who came to Friesland to administer the exam for the CEVNI code, but they were ex working bateliers and if I said the trainees were OK at handling the ship they just accepted my word for that as we'd built up a trust. When the system changed in 2008 we then came under Dunkerque, and we had to take the big white chief and his assistant out on the boat to become re-authorised. I asked him if he wanted to steer for a while and he was pleased as punch, but when I asked him if he had a licence he had to admit rather sheepishly that he didn't - his was only for high-speed little motor cruisers around the coast, and he'd never seen a little Freycinet lock before.

 

Tam

 

The people from Douai would have been very welcome on my barge to check everything, as they knew what a barge is, and they didn't need their books to tell them what to look for.

 

I'm not surprised about the big white chief, and am sad to say that there are way too many big white chiefs having important functions in the administration, supposed to deal with the navigation.

 

Peter.

[ebenezer]

Hi. have been reading ever ones Threaes on boat R Y A course s

 

it is easy to do R YA courses but to teach some other person you need the Experiance That take time ?

[Dharl]

_{Been able to teach is a great skill, especially without 'snatching the tiller back!' and I have great respect for anyone who has the skills and experience to pass these on.}

 

_{Am looking for both my wife and self to do the IWHC later this year. Are they recommended by the panel?}

[Tam & Di]

Hi. have been reading ever ones Threaes on boat R Y A course s

 

it is easy to do R YA courses but to teach some other person you need the Experiance That take time ?

 

 

_{Been able to teach is a great skill, especially without 'snatching the tiller back!' and I have great respect for anyone who has the skills and experience to pass these on.}

 

_{Am looking for both my wife and self to do the IWHC later this year. Are they recommended by the panel?}

 

We seem to have some odd typography in these posts (and some slightly odd English too)

 

Some instructors are obviously better than others, both in their depth of experience and their ability to pass it on. You'll find lots of recommendations on here - find someone who instructs using the sort of boat you have yourself and on the sort of waterway you will normally be on.

 

Tam

 

[Dharl]

lol thanks Tam! no idea why decided to write small...I didn't touch anything honest! All spelling and grammar mistakes my own.

[howardang]

_{Been able to teach is a great skill, especially without 'snatching the tiller back!' and I have great respect for anyone who has the skills and experience to pass these on.}

 

_{Am looking for both my wife and self to do the IWHC later this year. Are they recommended by the panel?}

I totally agree that the ability to teach varies enormously and from what I have heard and seen around the waterways there are some that are brilliant and individual recommendation is probably best when looking for a good one.

 

In your case might I suggest that, rather than follow the IWHC route, which is very basic but possibly of some value to absolute beginners, and for people with no handling knowledge/seamanship background, it might be more beneficial to spend a day or two boating with an experienced boater, who will have more time to pass on those little nuggets of waterway skills that the one day course may not consider, or have time for. I suspect that with your professional knowledge and experience you may find this a more satisfactory and less frustrating way of polishing your inland waterway skills if you feel a need to.

 

Howard

[Dharl]

many thanks Howard,

 

certainly not putting myself forward as an Inland Waterways expert and we will both look forward to learning more from an experienced boater. Perhaps will put a message up on the crew wanted board?

 

David

[mrsmelly]

many thanks Howard,

 

certainly not putting myself forward as an Inland Waterways expert and we will both look forward to learning more from an experienced boater. Perhaps will put a message up on the crew wanted board?

 

David

 

About 4 years ago a group turned up one morning on the oxford canal to take out a day boat. I met them and commenced my usual instruction given to all people who took a boat out. I always asked if anyone had any experience and all said no so I continued my usual schpeel. After a couple more minutes one of the women started giggling a little and nudged her mate so I asked what was funny as I hadnt caught on ( I did this in a jovial way as it wasnt a problem to me ) then one guy in his forties apologised and said take no notice its just that I am a skipper myself. It transpired that he was skipper of what was at that time one of the very biggest container ships in the world. He also said immediately that he had no idea of narrow canals, locks etc etc and wanted me to continue as he was most interested. At the end of the briefing he thanked me and said he had learnt a lot from the briefing. As a consumate proffesional he had understood that his vast experience was irrelevant on a narrow canal in a tiny boat with locks involved. True proffesionals all know the limitations of their expertise in any walk of life I think you will agree.

 

Tim

[Richard10002]

About 4 years ago a group turned up one morning on the oxford canal to take out a day boat. I met them and commenced my usual instruction given to all people who took a boat out. I always asked if anyone had any experience and all said no so I continued my usual schpeel. After a couple more minutes one of the women started giggling a little and nudged her mate so I asked what was funny as I hadnt caught on ( I did this in a jovial way as it wasnt a problem to me ) then one guy in his forties apologised and said take no notice its just that I am a skipper myself. It transpired that he was skipper of what was at that time one of the very biggest container ships in the world. He also said immediately that he had no idea of narrow canals, locks etc etc and wanted me to continue as he was most interested. At the end of the briefing he thanked me and said he had learnt a lot from the briefing. As a consumate proffesional he had understood that his vast experience was irrelevant on a narrow canal in a tiny boat with locks involved. True proffesionals all know the limitations of their expertise in any walk of life I think you will agree.

 

Tim

I gained my 2nd Mate Foreign Going Certificate in 1983, having sailed on Merchant Ships for 7 years or so. I have also been sailing yachts, including my own, for over 30 years. My most intrepid trip was UK to Malta and back between 2006 and 2009.

 

In 2006, myself and SWMBO did the IWHC, and I learned loads, albeit I was probably able to assimilate things much quicker than a novice. With hindsight, the biggest thing I learned was to reverse something that doesn't want to go in a straight line. Had I known this 30 years ago, it would have made many manoeuvres much more straightforward. Humility is a great quality, and can generate a healthy respect.

[Tam & Di]

I gained my 2nd Mate Foreign Going Certificate in 1983, having sailed on Merchant Ships for 7 years or so. I have also been sailing yachts, including my own, for over 30 years. My most intrepid trip was UK to Malta and back between 2006 and 2009.

 

In 2006, myself and SWMBO did the IWHC, and I learned loads, albeit I was probably able to assimilate things much quicker than a novice. With hindsight, the biggest thing I learned was to reverse something that doesn't want to go in a straight line. Had I known this 30 years ago, it would have made many manoeuvres much more straightforward. Humility is a great quality, and can generate a healthy respect.

 

Unfortunately, because it is mandatory to have a licence on the continent and the IWHC is a first step to getting it, we do tend to get men whose attitude is "I know all I need to know, and I'm just doing your course to get this silly licence". These are the ones whose wives (who did not come on the course, have never been on a boat before and who are now his crew) tend to have nasty accidents. These are never 'his' fault, of course. Luckily they are very few, as true professionals are always happy to learn whatever they can, wherever they can.

 

If boating was so easy that I'd learnt everything in a couple of weeks I certainly would not still be doing it after getting on for 60 years on the water. It would be so boring.

 

Tam

[howardang]

Unfortunately, because it is mandatory to have a licence on the continent and the IWHC is a first step to getting it, we do tend to get men whose attitude is "I know all I need to know, and I'm just doing your course to get this silly licence". These are the ones whose wives (who did not come on the course, have never been on a boat before and who are now his crew) tend to have nasty accidents. These are never 'his' fault, of course. Luckily they are very few, as true professionals are always happy to learn whatever they can, wherever they can.

 

If boating was so easy that I'd learnt everything in a couple of weeks I certainly would not still be doing it after getting on for 60 years on the water. It would be so boring.

 

Tam

I agree wholeheartedly that we can always learn more, especially where I suspect that some aspects of inland waterway boating can be alien to some seagoing professionals. I spent a week a few years ago taking a Certificate in Community Boat Management (CCBM) where two out of the six "students" were experienced ship masters with Foreign Going Masters Certificates. One of them did not take kindly to the instruction which he considered very much beneath his dignity and so didn't return after the first day! In my opinion it was his loss.

 

However, personally, I do think that the IWHC cannot impart much "canal savvy" in the short time available when it is also trying to teach basic boat handling/boatmanship and that is why I suggested that in the case of an obvious seagoing professional it might be better to gain this additional knowledge by spending time with experienced boaters on a longer time scale.

 

Howard

[RichardH]

 

Unfortunately, because it is mandatory to have a licence on the continent and the IWHC is a first step to getting it, we do tend to get men whose attitude is "I know all I need to know, and I'm just doing your course to get this silly licence". These are the ones whose wives (who did not come on the course, have never been on a boat before and who are now his crew) tend to have nasty accidents. These are never 'his' fault, of course. Luckily they are very few, as true professionals are always happy to learn whatever they can, wherever they can.

 

If boating was so easy that I'd learnt everything in a couple of weeks I certainly would not still be doing it after getting on for 60 years on the water. It would be so boring.

 

Tam

 

Yes indeed. We too have the 'I am only here because I have to be' abrigade. Thankfully most leave saying 'I really didn't think I would learn anything but am pleased to say I have'

 

This is usually echoed in the background by their other half saying 'see I told you that you didn't know everything'

 

Love it!

[Dharl]

 

About 4 years ago a group turned up one morning on the oxford canal to take out a day boat. I met them and commenced my usual instruction given to all people who took a boat out. I always asked if anyone had any experience and all said no so I continued my usual schpeel. After a couple more minutes one of the women started giggling a little and nudged her mate so I asked what was funny as I hadnt caught on ( I did this in a jovial way as it wasnt a problem to me ) then one guy in his forties apologised and said take no notice its just that I am a skipper myself. It transpired that he was skipper of what was at that time one of the very biggest container ships in the world. He also said immediately that he had no idea of narrow canals, locks etc etc and wanted me to continue as he was most interested. At the end of the briefing he thanked me and said he had learnt a lot from the briefing. As a consumate proffesional he had understood that his vast experience was irrelevant on a narrow canal in a tiny boat with locks involved. True proffesionals all know the limitations of their expertise in any walk of life I think you will agree.

 

Tim

 

Absolutely! holding a professional ticket in no way means you know everything...am always learning no things and gaining more experience and knowing your limitations.

 

A friend of mine fly's for a well know 'Orange' coloured aircraft company. He told me once that when a pilot first goes solo they think they know it all, after a 100hrs they realise they might still have more to learn and at 1,000 hrs then they know how much they still have to gain!

[mrsmelly]

 

Absolutely! holding a professional ticket in no way means you know everything...am always learning no things and gaining more experience and knowing your limitations.

 

A friend of mine fly's for a well know 'Orange' coloured aircraft company. He told me once that when a pilot first goes solo they think they know it all, after a 100hrs they realise they might still have more to learn and at 1,000 hrs then they know how much they still have to gain!

 

Hi

 

A scary thought but oh so absolutely true.

 

Tim