Lathom Locks - Dimensions ??

[Pete of Ebor]

Can anyone confirm the dimensions of the Locks 1 to 7 on The Rufford Branch of The Leeds & Liverpool ? Got this 'error' on canalplan...

 

The Leeds and Liverpool Canal (Rufford Branch) between Lathom Junction and Junction Bridge No 1 can only take boats 62 feet long, and your boat is 70 feet long

 

surely, Lathom Jn and Junction Bridge 1 are at the same place aren't they ? As all the locks between Liverpool & Wigan Junction are 70' I'd assumed that The Rufford Branch would be too...

 

Pete.

[Pete of Ebor]

Just found it in Nicholson's - Maximum Length Rufford Branch - 62' - so that's that possible trip out then !

[Doorman]

We used to moor along there on the Rufford Branch of the L&L and our friends who also moored there had a boat that was 60 foot long, but I think that Nicholson's are correct in their statement. Certainly, no 70 footers ever made it past Lock 1.

 

Mike

[StephenA]

The Junction and Bridge number 1 are separate places (from a navigational point of view - the junction is shared between the Rufford Branch and the Main Line) but the text certainly is confusing... I'll mention it to Nick in the pub tonight.

[Pluto]

The Rufford branch locks are all similar in length to the L&LC above Wigan, with locks based on a boat length of 62 feet. According to notes made by a canal engineer in 1890, the minimum width of the locks down to Tarleton is 15 feet 6 inches, with Germans Lock the shortest at 64 feet 8 inches from the rear of the sill to the front of the mitre.

[CanalPlanAC]

Can anyone confirm the dimensions of the Locks 1 to 7 on The Rufford Branch of The Leeds & Liverpool ? Got this 'error' on canalplan...

 

The Leeds and Liverpool Canal (Rufford Branch) between Lathom Junction and Junction Bridge No 1 can only take boats 62 feet long, and your boat is 70 feet long

 

surely, Lathom Jn and Junction Bridge 1 are at the same place aren't they ? As all the locks between Liverpool & Wigan Junction are 70' I'd assumed that The Rufford Branch would be too...

 

It's not the most helpful message, is it. What happens is that the database has dimensions for entire waterways or chunks of waterways (and so has the whole Rufford Branch down as 62 foot max, even though - in theory - you could get as far as the top lock and back out again). So it rightly won't let you down the canal. But, when it comes to planning as soon as it starts down the waterway it discovers your boat won't fit and so tells you, using the very first chunk of the waterway that you don't fit. In this case it's the (immeasurably short length) between the junction and the bridge.

 

So it's doing the right thing, but could be a bit clearer in the way it reports it. I'll add this to the list of things to improve.

 

Hope this helps.

[furnessvale]

The Rufford branch locks are all similar in length to the L&LC above Wigan, with locks based on a boat length of 62 feet. According to notes made by a canal engineer in 1890, the minimum width of the locks down to Tarleton is 15 feet 6 inches, with Germans Lock the shortest at 64 feet 8 inches from the rear of the sill to the front of the mitre.

On a test a few years ago, the ex Thomas Clayton narrowboat DANE got down the first lock but failed on the second. I believe DANE is around 70ft long.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[dmr]

First:

You CAN get a 70 foot boat into Liverpool. I am aware that CaRT themeselves have been telling some people booking the Liverpool Link that a 70 foot boat will not fit on the Leeds and Liverpooll. The section from the Bridgewater to Liverpoll docks takes a 70 footer easily.

 

Sadly the Rufford branch will not take a 70 foot boat so the Lancaster canal and Ribble link are not available to us 70 foot owners.

What might be causing confusion is that the Lancaster can take 70 footers and the Ribble Link was built to take 70 footers. I believe this was after pressure from the Historic boat owners who hope that one day the Rufford arm Locks just might be rebuilt to take a 70 footer!

 

............Dave

[furnessvale]

What might be causing confusion is that the Lancaster can take 70 footers and the Ribble Link was built to take 70 footers. I believe this was after pressure from the Historic boat owners who hope that one day the Rufford arm Locks just might be rebuilt to take a 70 footer!

 

............Dave

Which was the reason for the testing by DANE some years ago.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Pluto]

Which was the reason for the testing by DANE some years ago.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

They were lucky to get down, as I once stopped a wooden narrow boat descending that lock just as the rudder was lifting as it sat on the sill. Dimensions from 1890 give the top lock length from the centre of the sill to the mitre as 69 feet 7 inches, so it would be possible to pass a narrow boat slightly longer with the bow alongside the lower gate. Germans Lock is the shortest, as I mentioned before, with a length of 68 feet 4 inches.

[Pete of Ebor]

I started the post. What surprised me was that Canalplan had previously worked out timings for all 5 of our proposed trips, and I hadn't even thought about boat length. It was only when I came to check on winding hole lengths that I actually put in the boat lenght into canalplan. Fortunately, it then threw out our Rufford option. I was already aware of the short locks between Wigan & Leeds and since Wigan to Liverpool & The Leigh Branch are given as 72', I'd assumed that The Rufford Branch would be too. Oops !

Original plan was to go to Liverpool & cruise The Link but C&RT's fixed passage days have put paid to that, so Rufford bacame a second option.

Plan now is to go up The Huddersfield Narrow as far as we can without passage of Standege (..we won't have enough time to get the boat back if we go through..) but it will give us lots of 'new track' and two visits to Stalybridge Station Buffet... Black pudding with black peas.. mmmm...

[furnessvale]

They were lucky to get down, as I once stopped a wooden narrow boat descending that lock just as the rudder was lifting as it sat on the sill. Dimensions from 1890 give the top lock length from the centre of the sill to the mitre as 69 feet 7 inches, so it would be possible to pass a narrow boat slightly longer with the bow alongside the lower gate. Germans Lock is the shortest, as I mentioned before, with a length of 68 feet 4 inches.

Although I wasn't present, the test was carefully controlled to avoid such an eventuality.

 

I notice the shortest lock has changed from 64ft 8ins to 68ft 4ins. If the latter is correct it makes the possibility of lengthening the locks more realistic.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Doorman]

First:

You CAN get a 70 foot boat into Liverpool. I am aware that CaRT themeselves have been telling some people booking the Liverpool Link that a 70 foot boat will not fit on the Leeds and Liverpooll. The section from the Bridgewater to Liverpoll docks takes a 70 footer easily.

 

Sadly the Rufford branch will not take a 70 foot boat so the Lancaster canal and Ribble link are not available to us 70 foot owners.

What might be causing confusion is that the Lancaster can take 70 footers and the Ribble Link was built to take 70 footers. I believe this was after pressure from the Historic boat owners who hope that one day the Rufford arm Locks just might be rebuilt to take a 70 footer!

 

............Dave

Hello Dave,

 

There's an infamous marina owner along the Rufford Arm whom shall remain anonymous (Alan Mawdsely), who allegedly accepted a deposit from an owner of a 70 foot narrowboat to take one of his available berths, even though he knew that the boat would not be able to navigate that stretch of the L&L.

 

When the unfortunate boat owner attempted to cruise down the arm and realised that it wasn't possible, he complained to Mawdsely whose typical response was; "You should have known better!". It's quite some time since we've been back along that way, but I believe this character's other marina at Scarisbrick is under subscribed, is it any wonder?

 

Mike

[Pluto]

Although I wasn't present, the test was carefully controlled to avoid such an eventuality.

 

I notice the shortest lock has changed from 64ft 8ins to 68ft 4ins. If the latter is correct it makes the possibility of lengthening the locks more realistic.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

If you look carefully at what I said, the length of lock I am talking about is the same, it is just where the measurements were taken that has changed. It is one of the difficulties in talking about lock dimensions that it is notoriously difficult to give a really useful dimension. One set of figures used the centre of the sill, while the other used the 'outer' end of the sill. One used the tip of the mitre, the other the quoin. The cost of lengthening the locks would be a poor use of limited resources, let alone the damage to historic structures. If you have a 72 foot boat, do what always used to be done and go round the coast from Liverpool. A number of 72 foot L&LC boats were built on the Ribble and sailed round to Liverpool to get onto the canal. A number also made the move to the Lancaster by sailing around the Fylde to Glasson.

[furnessvale]

If you look carefully at what I said, the length of lock I am talking about is the same, it is just where the measurements were taken that has changed. It is one of the difficulties in talking about lock dimensions that it is notoriously difficult to give a really useful dimension. One set of figures used the centre of the sill, while the other used the 'outer' end of the sill. One used the tip of the mitre, the other the quoin. The cost of lengthening the locks would be a poor use of limited resources, let alone the damage to historic structures. If you have a 72 foot boat, do what always used to be done and go round the coast from Liverpool. A number of 72 foot L&LC boats were built on the Ribble and sailed round to Liverpool to get onto the canal. A number also made the move to the Lancaster by sailing around the Fylde to Glasson.

I see the difference in the dimensions now, but that would have been impossible to deduce from the original descriptions.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[dmr]

Hello Dave,

 

There's an infamous marina owner along the Rufford Arm whom shall remain anonymous (Alan Mawdsely), who allegedly accepted a deposit from an owner of a 70 foot narrowboat to take one of his available berths, even though he knew that the boat would not be able to navigate that stretch of the L&L.

 

When the unfortunate boat owner attempted to cruise down the arm and realised that it wasn't possible, he complained to Mawdsely whose typical response was; "You should have known better!". It's quite some time since we've been back along that way, but I believe this character's other marina at Scarisbrick is under subscribed, is it any wonder?

 

Mike

Hello Mike

 

The waterways do rather breed people with this sort of attitude.

I used to work with someone who had exactly this way of thinking and it was actually quite entertaining to watch when someone else was on the recieving end, but not at all when it was me!.

Maybe there should be a new law obliging us all to offer helpful advice to people who are about to make a terrible mistake....could be a full time though!

 

..........Dave,

[Doorman]

 

Hello Mike

 

Maybe there should be a new law obliging us all to offer helpful advice to people who are about to make a terrible mistake....could be a full time though!

 

..........Dave,

It would be if it involved me! :-)

[Jrtm]

On a test a few years ago, the ex Thomas Clayton narrowboat DANE got down the first lock but failed on the second. I believe DANE is around 70ft long.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

This is correct dane is just under 70foot we got down the first lock ok but second got in but couldnt open the gate by quite alot. We then went in backwards so the bow was over the cill with all fenders up and tiller bar off we needed about 1 inch if we had the time im sure we could have lost some weight like the decks and ballast in the hold but this would have beem hours so we gave up un willingly.

[madcat]

I took Halsall to Haskayne a couple of times when we lived up that way. On my journey I pass through the villiage of Halsall. I forgot to take any photos . It's some time ago , last visit would be 1997 before we moved away from Merseyside.

I have the trip to Liverpool on my to do list one day