will you be my virtual guide around my boat?

[Emerald]

Although I have been around for a while I am still very much a newbie and trying to learn as much as possible about my boat. Given that I have quite a lot of experience with motor vehicles I thought the transition to boating would be easy but this is clearly not the case and unfortunately I am finding it quite difficult to understand how a lot of components are configured to work.

The manual I received with the boat is worse than useless for my needs as was the handover when I bought it.

 

I was wondering if maybe a few people on here would kindly spare me a moment of their time and be my virtual guide to all things puzzling?

 

The first thing of interest to me is high on my priority list given that the boat won't start since standing most of the winter. Can anyone tell me about the two pipes from the fuel tank, what the electrical switch is for and how it operates. Why are there two taps, one without a lever, is this a return? (I know the manual lever is in the off position on the other and is not the cause of the none start problem)

 

Edited March 31, 2013 by Escape

[nebulae]

Is the pipe with the tap the fuel feed and the other the spill pipe?No tap on spill line as only needed for servicing the tank?Strange to have flexible fuel pipe next to the tank.Job to see what is going on without a wider angle shot.By electric swith,do you meen the bige pump float switch?

[Emerald]

By electric swith,do you meen the bige pump float switch?

 

Thanks for the reply, I mean the black box at the side of the tap lever has wires attached to it. I am guessing it is some kind of emergency fuel cut off switch perhaps?

Edited March 31, 2013 by Escape

[Radiomariner]

The valve with the black cover and wires coming out is a solenoid valve. It would normally be required for this valve to be closed when there is no electric supply. (Fail safe).

Without a better view of where the two lines go it is very difficult to tell which does what. A spill rail. (Return of unused diesel from engine back to tank) normally by requirement goes back to the top of the tank (there are some allowable exceptions). From your photo it appears both lines seem to be from the bottom of the tank. (Gravity feed) and therefore it seems possible one supplies the engine and the other is for some auxillary purpose, (heating system perhaps). In both cases, if there is no other valves between them and the tank will be deemed to be "Shut Off" valves, the solenoid one, if it is "fail safe" is OK but the other should have a handle to operate. There should be a sign somewhere with a message something like "Emergency Fuel Cock" below

Hope this helps a bit

Edited April 1, 2013 by Radiomariner

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

There may be a tank drain from the bottom of the tank which is sealed by the fitting. The solenoid valve with the tap both work to stop fuel. The solenoid valve opens with the ignition switch and closes to stop the engine when the ignition is off. (better than a pull stop wire) The fuel should be drawn off a couple of inches above the bottom to prevent muck getting into the filters. Most engines have a cold start system which may be set of heater plugs. Your batteries need to be well charged to start a cold engine. if both fuel pipes join, than the blanked off one is for a cabin heater.

Edited March 31, 2013 by The Bagdad Boatman (waits)

[Geoff Taylor]

Hi, In order to be able to help with your piping etc,trace where the pipes go to, what make of engine is fitted,does it stop on the key or cable pull and do you have diesel fired central heating or stove?.

At the moment my guess is that the left hand pipe is the engine supply and the solenoid controlled one goes to heating,it will not be a stop for the engine as the stop solenoid will if fitted be joined directly onto the injector pump.The fuel spill off pipe from the injectors/filters will almost certainly be running into the top of the fuel tank,trace these as well as sometimes the spill offs can be routed back into the filter housing avoiding the tank.

[jake_crew]

Where is Escape currently moored.

 

One of us may be near enough to drop by and have a look.

[Emerald]

Thanks for all the replies. I have tried to get it started again today without success. A very kind forum member gave me a hand but to no avail. it would appear I have fuel going into the pump but nothing at the injectors. The boat, and engine is just over a year old so I am hoping for another warranty repair?

 

I was just hoping to get it running myself in case I have done something stupid? I have tried bleeding the system, checking for water in the filters etc. The engine is a Barrus Shanks 37.

 

The fuel line with the solenoid in the last picture is attached to the pump just before the plunger in the next picture. The other fuel line (on the left) is attached to the top of the injectors but doesn't return to the top of the tank as described but parallel to the other at the bottom. There is a third take off pipe the other side of the tank (not in the photo) that goes to the Webasto unit.

 

.

[steelaway]

Hi

 

 

Usually the diesel is fed to the engine fuel pump, it is then pumped to the injector rail. if the engine is not running then all the fuel returns to the tank from the end of the fuel rail, automatically bleeding the fuel system. You should hear the return fuel entering the tank. If the engine is running only the excess that the injectors don't use is returned to the tank. I would suspect this is an electric pump so you should hear it running when you turn on the ignition. make sure there is fuel pumping at the injectors

 

I hope this helps

 

Alex

[Emerald]

Hi

 

 

Usually the diesel is fed to the engine fuel pump, it is then pumped to the injector rail. if the engine is not running then all the fuel returns to the tank from the end of the fuel rail, automatically bleeding the fuel system. You should hear the return fuel entering the tank. If the engine is running only the excess that the injectors don't use is returned to the tank. I would suspect this is an electric pump so you should hear it running when you turn on the ignition. make sure there is fuel pumping at the injectors

 

I hope this helps

 

Alex

 

No fuel at the injectors but fuel at the pump. The manual states to turn the engine with the injector pipes loose to bleed it. This doesn't work either unfortunately. I take it the cable to the pump activates to shut the off fuel when the key turned off on the instrument panel and back on when the ignition is turn on. This appears to be working ok.

[Graham Davis]

Where is Escape currently moored.

 

One of us may be near enough to drop by and have a look.

 

Repeating this post, as the info may help

Edited March 31, 2013 by Graham Davis

[steelaway]

No fuel at the injectors but fuel at the pump. The manual states to turn the engine with the injector pipes loose to bleed it. This doesn't work either unfortunately. I take it the cable to the pump activates to shut the off fuel when the key turned off on the instrument panel and back on when the ignition is turn on. This appears to be working ok.

 

Hi

 

 

Are you convinced the pump is working?

Maybe you could take a live lead from the battery to the pump?

 

Alex

[Emerald]

Repeating this post, as the info may help

 

Thanks, that's very kind of you, people on here are so helpful. I have got the company I bought it from to take a look at it now so hopefully they will be able to sort it for me next week. I am obviously interested for future reference learning as much as I can about the boat as I don't want to be stranded at any point.

[Emerald]

Hi

 

 

Are you convinced the pump is working?

Maybe you could take a live lead from the battery to the pump?

 

Alex

 

forgive my ignorance but the pump is mechanical surely and only the shut off valve electrically powered?

 

A spill rail. (Return of unused diesel from engine back to tank) normally by regulation goes back to the top of the tank (there are some allowable exceptions).

 

 

As I will have to have a BSS check at some point do you happen to know what are the allowable exceptions?

Edited March 31, 2013 by Escape

[steelaway]

forgive my ignorance but the pump is mechanical surely and only the shut off valve electrically powered?

 

 

 

As I will have to have a BSS check at some point do you happen to know what are the allowable exceptions?

 

 

 

 

Sorry I assumed that if it was Barrus it would be an electric pump

 

Alex

[Radiomariner]

 

As I will have to have a BSS check at some point do you happen to know what are the allowable exceptions?

 

Sorry, missuse of the word 'regulation'.

'Requirement' or 'necessity' would have been better words to use. If the level of fuel in the tank is higher than that of the engine then the

spill line, if it goes to the tank , should return to the top of the tank to prevent fuel flowing back into the engine.

An alternative is to fit non return valve. Nowadays many spill systems return to a second input on a fuel filter

[Emerald]

Thanks again all.

 

Another thing that has been bothering me is the coolant expansion bottle. Under normal running conditions the bottle has coolant in it but when cool the bottle drains. If I fill it to the line and run the engine it expands and syphons out into the engine bay. There isn't an airlock and it has done this since new.

 

The other thing is the battery bank has dual purpose leisure/starter batteries and I am finding cold cranking difficult. The boat is on shoreline and has been coupled to a Victron Energy Multiplus Compact 12/1600 inverter on 'float' for the winter. All the battery indicators show green and all the levels are good. Would a good quality Starter battery be a better option for this configuration?

 

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

There is plenty of battery power in your set up. check the connections to the starter motor are they tight?

[Emerald]

There is plenty of battery power in your set up. check the connections to the starter motor are they tight?

Not really, only the battery on the left is used for starting, the other three are the domestics. All the connections are ok. I did find one on the domestic bank that was a little loose.

[Radiomariner]

The indicators on the batteries only indicate the reading for that particular cell. Check each cell of the starter battery with a hydrometer.

It is quite common sometimes, when on shore power only the leasure battery gets charged. Depends on the set up .Put a meter across the battery, read the voltage when the engine is cranking.

 

With regard to yiour first problem. That solenoid valve, if it is the main "shut off" should be by-passed by a normally closed hand operated valve, or cock. It would be quite normal for this to have the handle removed to prevent it's being opened un-intentionally. It could be from a second take off on the tank and re-join the fuel system somewhere after the solenoid valve. I thought the valve in your first picture might do this, but not if it leads to the injectors, which would indicate it is in the spill line. Can not really follow your second pic.

 

Now, were you to be mistaken and the manual valve was the by-pass, this would tie up with your apparent dead battery. With a low battery the moment the starting motor energises, the solenoid drops out due to low voltage and the valve closes. On first turning on the ignition the valve will probably be open allowing fuel to flow to the pump possibly giving the illusion that fuel supply is OK but shuts off when trying to start the engine. That is when the by-pass valve should be opened.

 

 

 

 

[Emerald]

Thanks again.

 

I have traced the fuel line with the manual tap and solenoid to the inline fuel filters as per the next photograph. This is then connected to the fuel lift pump just before the plunger in the other photo. The other fuel line connects to the front end of the pump, goes off to the top of the injectors and then returns to the tank via the other pipe in the first picture.

 

[MtB]

The other thing is the battery bank has dual purpose leisure/starter batteries and I am finding cold cranking difficult. The boat is on shoreline and has been coupled to a Victron Energy Multiplus Compact 12/1600 inverter on 'float' for the winter. All the battery indicators show green and all the levels are good. Would a good quality Starter battery be a better option for this configuration?

 

Another, simpler approach would be to use jump leads to take advantage of the charge available in your leisure batteries for engine starting.

 

Looking at the photo, I think you'd only need to use one jump lead as the negatives are all commoned together. I think a jump lead connecting the positives on the two left hand batteries in your photo would give you loads of cranking voltage, and that solenoid valve will then stay open and the engine will eventually start, as it ought to be self-bleeding.

 

MtB

 

 

Edited to correct a speeling mistake)

Edited April 1, 2013 by Mike the Boilerman

[Emerald]

Another, simpler approach would be to use jump leads to take advantage of the charge available in your leisure batteries for engine starting.

 

Looking at the photo, I think you'd only need to use one jump lead as the negatives are all commoned together. I think a jump lead connecting the positives on the two left hand batteries in your photo would give you loads of cranking voltage, and that solenoid valve will then stay open and the engine will eventually start, as it ought to be self-bleeding.

 

MtB

 

 

Edited to correct a speeling mistake)

 

Thanks, tried that also.

[Emerald]

Hi guys I thought I would just update this topic and to bring it to a conclusion for anyone with similar problems in the future. Today a very nice man from a well known marine engine manufacturer brought and fitted a new injector pump and the engine is finally up and running again. Apparently the other one was seized (not bad for an engine with only 26 hours running time).On the positive side I am only too glad that we broke down at our home mooring as we have had 3 weeks of heated telephone conversations, loss of sleep and total anguish trying to get this sorted and wouldn't like to even contemplate what this would have been like had we broken down on the cut.

 

Over the past year we have been driven to the point where my wife and I actually seriously contemplated taking the financial hit, put the boat up for sale and give up. I have not published many of the issues that we have had since taking up boat ownership but today I feel the need to vent my frustration. There has been a lot more to this than just the engine trouble and more than one party involvement in this sorry saga. I have been very tempted to name and shame the companies involved but will leave it for now. However if they continue to trade in the manner that they do I am sure they will not be around for much longer.

 

For now I will take a deep breath and contemplate that maybe the slow pace of life and laid back attitudes on the water extends to the companies we rely on to keep us moving eh?

 

 

Thanks again all for those whose advice went a long way to educate and advise all I need now is for someone to tell me when the fun begins?

[nicknorman]

Sorry you're fed up with your boat before you've really started, but hopefully things can only get better - after all, its suddenly spring and summer is just round the corner!

 

Although our boat builder was pretty good, I'm afraid that in my opinion if you are dependant on "professionals" to keep your boat going, you will be frustrated. Really, having money and throwing it at someone else doesn't work. The only solution is to understand what makes your boat tick and do most of the work yourself - as you suggest, a knowledge of vehicle maintenance is a good starting point so what you need to acquire is knowledge of how your boat works, rather than skill (the former being much easier to acquire!). It seems you have started on that journey and it will only get better and easier from now on.