Blown head gasket (again!)

[Iain_S]

Prompted by Geoff's post, I had a look through the manual as well. One possibility that occurs is that the thermostats may not have any means of passing air when bleeding after the initial coolant fill. A friend had an overheating problem on an engine with a similar two thermostat set up, and found that a large airlock formed under the first thermostat. When the engine was run, that air made its way to the skin tank and stayed there, causing overheating. boiling,expulsion of water, etc. After bleeding the skin tank, and refilling with coolant, the same problem would manifest itself. Cure was a small hole drilled in the offending thermostats.

 

 

Iain

[Chalky]

How's the header tank plumbed in? Automotive practice is for the coolant to flow through it so that it de-gasses. If it's T'd off a pipe this won't help.

[IdealStandard]

I spoke to RCR today about the whole thing and they were really helpful. They have had another Barrus Shanks with exactly the same problem, constant overheating and blowing head gaskets, and then removal of thermostats and coolant system producing massive amounts of air. They are going to contact the contractors who were involved in the previous job and try to get a solution.

 

They said that they refuse to fit these engines because of the known problems!

 

I also found a sheared off bolt in the water pump housing!!!

[Bod]

Could a bleed screw be fitted directly into the top of the skintank?

 

Maybe just drilling and tapping a small hole would allow any air to be removed, a screw with soft washer to seal.

 

It would only need to be M4 or M5, but can you get a drill in, and room to turn a tap wrench?

 

Bod

 

I spoke to RCR today about the whole thing and they were really helpful. They have had another Barrus Shanks with exactly the same problem, constant overheating and blowing head gaskets, and then removal of thermostats and coolant system producing massive amounts of air. They are going to contact the contractors who were involved in the previous job and try to get a solution.

 

They said that they refuse to fit these engines because of the known problems!

 

I also found a sheared off bolt in the water pump housing!!!

Sheared off bolt, was it holding the water pump on? or actually inside the pump its self?

 

Didn't you have the pump at least inspected or was it changed?

 

If it was inside the pump, where did it come from?

 

Bod

[IdealStandard]

Could a bleed screw be fitted directly into the top of the skintank?

 

Maybe just drilling and tapping a small hole would allow any air to be removed, a screw with soft washer to seal.

 

It would only need to be M4 or M5, but can you get a drill in, and room to turn a tap wrench?

 

Bod

I have had that idea and it is a mighty fine one.

 

Sheared off bolt, was it holding the water pump on? or actually inside the pump its self?

 

Didn't you have the pump at least inspected or was it changed?

 

If it was inside the pump, where did it come from?

 

Bod

 

It was holding part of the pump casing on, but there are a few bolts all the way round and when I pulled it out with my fingers it didn't start a leak. The water pump was indeed changed by the engineers and I will have to tell them about it. They won't be happy!

Edited March 14, 2013 by IdealStandard

[Bod]

Good luck with getting the remains out!

 

Patience and care, center punch, small drill, bit bigger drill, bit bigger drill, closest drill size to tapping size, without damaging (too much the) threads, then tap out remaining sheared off bolt.

 

DO NOT break off taps/drills, it will make things much harder!! (I know.....)

Easy-outs just don't work, unless the remains are already loose.

 

Bod

[kittsy]

ALSO i would check the size of you skin tank if you have one and fine how much square feet of cooling you have then devide your horse power into the area see beta amrine for the formula its available on line if there is a problem with cooling to horse power due to an undersised skin tank this will cause overheating along with any heating of domestic water direct from the engine is the boat builder east west or liverpool but it has to be said shanks engines are very shoddy and not a true marine engine but do work well when installed well

[bizzard]

If the stub has snapped off flush with the holes surface on the pumps boby it might be easier to remove the pump which woulb leave the bit of stub sticking out to grip with pliers or a proper stub extractor

 

A B has been substituteb for the correct letter.

Edited March 16, 2013 by bizzard

[Ex- Member]

ALSO i would check the size of you skin tank if you have one and fine how much square feet of cooling you have then devide your horse power into the area see beta amrine for the formula its available on line if there is a problem with cooling to horse power due to an undersised skin tank this will cause overheating along with any heating of domestic water direct from the engine is the boat builder east west or liverpool but it has to be said shanks engines are very shoddy and not a true marine engine but do work well when installed well

 

I mentioned the same in post 67 although it does seem that there's a circulation problem currently, but why did the head gasket blow in the first place. I would want to know that before reconnecting an engine with a replaced head gasket.

[IdealStandard]

If the stub has snapped off flush with the holes surface on the pumps boby it might be easier to remove the pump which woulb leave the bit of stub sticking out to grip with pliers or a proper stub extractor

 

A B has been substituteb for the correct letter.

 

If only I was that lucky. The stud has broken well inside the pump body. I will have to remove the pump housing to even see where the stud has broken off. Fingers crossed there is a little something to get pliers onto, but from the looks of it I won't be that lucky.

 

IMG_9759 by tim_warin, on Flickr

IMG_9758 by tim_warin, on Flickr

 

One of the most important things going forward is to have a way of measuring the temperature of the engine.

 

IMG_9757 by tim_warin, on Flickr

 

The sender seems to be knackered and needs replacing, how do I go about sourcing a new one to match?

[Chris Pink]

There'll be a reason why that valve is closed.

[IdealStandard]

The minimum level on the header tank is a meaningless mark in a customised system. If it's a vehicle header tank then the room for expansion will be less than on a skin tank system that holds a lot more water than a standard vehicle system. I would, next time, allow it to overflow, with the cap off, until it stops overflowing - as long as the engine is not over heating - then put the cap back on and monitor the temperature.

 

Even if you don't have a temperature gauge, as you have found out, too hot is fairly easily monitored - it's smelly and smoky.

 

I tried to test this hypothesis, but just as the coolant starting spitting out past the pressure cap I noticed the sheared off bolt.

 

I think you might be onto something.

 

I have also heeard of someone else who did exactly the same things on a Shanks 35. Head gasket went three times, they removed the thermostats and the engine kept cool but produced massive amounts of air and needed constant bleeding. I hope to find out if they reached a solution through RCR who said they would contact the contractors.

 

I'm going to get on the phone to Barrus first thing tomorrow and see what I can find out.

 

There'll be a reason why that valve is closed.

 

It's the filler tap, its used to bypass the thermostats to bleed the engine. It stays closed.

 

Header tank:

 

IMG_9748 by tim_warin, on Flickr

 

Thermostat housing and header tank connections:

 

IMG_9749 by tim_warin, on Flickr

 

Skin tank inlet:

IMG_9750 by tim_warin, on Flickr

 

This was meant to be a photo of the skin tank, but the flash only illuminated the foreground!:

 

IMG_9751 by tim_warin, on Flickr

 

ALSO i would check the size of you skin tank if you have one and fine how much square feet of cooling you have then devide your horse power into the area see beta amrine for the formula its available on line if there is a problem with cooling to horse power due to an undersised skin tank this will cause overheating along with any heating of domestic water direct from the engine is the boat builder east west or liverpool but it has to be said shanks engines are very shoddy and not a true marine engine but do work well when installed well

 

The skin tank seems to be sized ok according to the manual.

 

Also the problem here isn't long term overheating from undercooling. The last two times it seems to have gone, it has done so by getting incredibly over a short period due to failure of the coolant system.

 

Was the skin tank bled?

Air there normally won't come out by itself, and could cause the overheating problem. If the overheating allows the water in the engine to boil, it will blast out the ressure cap as described.

 

Iain

 

The water coming out is not even very hot and is happening when the engine is barely warm.

 

It seems far more like air being forced into the system, or as Chris mentioned, there not being enough expansion space.

[RLWP]

Are there bleed points on the top of the skin tanks?

 

Richard

[IdealStandard]

Are there bleed points on the top of the skin tanks?

 

Richard

 

No.

[RLWP]

No.

 

Lemontoes had a nasty repetitive boiling over episode last year which turned out to be trapped air in the skin tank. Air expands massively pushing water out of the header tank

 

If you are fitting bleed points, put one in the top corner of the skin tank too

 

Richard

[IdealStandard]

I've just blurted out a load of stuff and wanted to focus on one thing that I would really like advice on.

 

How do I find a matching temperature sender and gauge?

 

This is priority 1 as Geoff rightly says.

 

I spend this weekend selling belongings to try to raise the money to cover the costs of the ongoing work. It's getting to be pretty frustrating.

[bizzard]

I tried to test this hypothesis, but just as the coolant starting spitting out past the pressure cap I noticed the sheared off bolt.

 

I think you might be onto something.

 

I have also heeard of someone else who did exactly the same things on a Shanks 35. Head gasket went three times, they removed the thermostats and the engine kept cool but produced massive amounts of air and needed constant bleeding. I hope to find out if they reached a solution through RCR who said they would contact the contractors.

 

I'm going to get on the phone to Barrus first thing tomorrow and see what I can find out.

 

 

 

It's the filler tap, its used to bypass the thermostats to bleed the engine. It stays closed.

 

Header tank:

 

IMG_9748 by tim_warin, on Flickr

 

Thermostat housing and header tank connections:

 

IMG_9749 by tim_warin, on Flickr

 

Skin tank inlet:

IMG_9750 by tim_warin, on Flickr

 

This was meant to be a photo of the skin tank, but the flash only illuminated the foreground!:

 

IMG_9751 by tim_warin, on Flickr

Unless the snapped stud is causing a coolant leak I wouldn't worry too much about it at this stage until you've solved the main trouble.

If your getting no reading at all on the temp gauge a quick gauge check can be carried out by pulling the wire off the sender and holding its bare end against the body nut, with the ignition key turned on the gauge needle should climb to maximum and drop when the sender wire is withdrawn clear.

A very low or zero temp gauge reading can also indicate ''no coolant'' in the vicinity of the senders bulb.

[IdealStandard]

Unless the snapped stud is causing a coolant leak I wouldn't worry too much about it at this stage until you've solved the main trouble.

If your getting no reading at all on the temp gauge a quick gauge check can be carried out by pulling the wire off the sender and holding its bare end against the body nut, with the ignition key turned on the gauge needle should climb to maximum and drop when the sender wire is withdrawn clear.

A very low or zero temp gauge reading can also indicate ''no coolant'' in the vicinity of the senders bulb.

 

The engine is only fitted with an overheat warning light as standard. I have tested the bulb and it is functioning, but in three head gasket failures it has not come on once!

 

Would the same test work for an overheat warning light?

 

Edit: also if the sender was working, I'm guessing it would not be the same type that could send a temperature reading so would need replacing anyway.

Edited March 17, 2013 by IdealStandard

[bizzard]

The engine is only fitted with an overheat warning light as standard. I have tested the bulb and it is functioning, but in three head gasket failures it has not come on once!

 

Would the same test work for an overheat warning light?

 

Edit: also if the sender was working, I'm guessing it would not be the same type that could send a temperature reading so would need replacing anyway.

Not certain but it won't do any harm to try as its only completing the electrical circuit.

[IdealStandard]

I just wanted to say a massive thank you to everyone for taking the time to help with these problems. I haven't said that in a little while and I really appreciate it!

 

Also I haven't been dishing out the well deserved greenies!

[Bod]

When you refill the system with water, do you remove the top hose, and fill the skin tank through that first, then reconnect, and fill the engine through the expansion bottle?

 

Or fill the whole system, just through the expansion bottle?

 

Bod

[IdealStandard]

When you refill the system with water, do you remove the top hose, and fill the skin tank through that first, then reconnect, and fill the engine through the expansion bottle?

 

Or fill the whole system, just through the expansion bottle?

 

Bod

 

The first time, when I did the job myself I just filled it through the expansion bottle.

 

Since then, it has always been filled by removing the top hose to the skin tank, filling that and then reconnecting to do the rest.

[RobinJ]

The first time, when I did the job myself I just filled it through the expansion bottle.

 

Since then, it has always been filled by removing the top hose to the skin tank, filling that and then reconnecting to do the rest.

Is it time to have a good go at the whole system?

If you were to take the bottom hose off the skin tank and the water was pretty rusty, it may indicate it needs flushing!

Also you could find out whether any air is trapped in there?

Disconnecting the top hose you could then fill the engine up and check water is flowing through to the tank (although this would be against the flow of the pump)?

 

Air trapped in a system can cause peculiar problems, and generally collects in one position (in my case at the rear of the engine at the calorifier take off). The question is whether the air is from trapped air during filling, air being sucked in during cooling or combustion gases from a blown gasket or cracked head?

[Chris Pink]

I don't know the answer to this but if you fill with a pressure hosepipe would it 'blow' any air through and out?

[IdealStandard]

Is it time to have a good go at the whole system?

If you were to take the bottom hose off the skin tank and the water was pretty rusty, it may indicate it needs flushing!

Also you could find out whether any air is trapped in there?

Disconnecting the top hose you could then fill the engine up and check water is flowing through to the tank (although this would be against the flow of the pump)?

 

Air trapped in a system can cause peculiar problems, and generally collects in one position (in my case at the rear of the engine at the calorifier take off). The question is whether the air is from trapped air during filling, air being sucked in during cooling or combustion gases from a blown gasket or cracked head?

 

I've been trying to think of a way of getting myself set up for flushing the skin tank. It definitely needs doing, the coolant has gone murky brown since last rebuild and this must be due to higher flow rate of water disturbing muck in the skin tank.

 

The problem is that I am currently in the Bristol harbour and there is nowhere easy to flush the contents to. My bilge already has three lots of engine coolant swimming around it and the nearest drain is a way off.

 

Air trapped in a system can cause peculiar problems, and generally collects in one position (in my case at the rear of the engine at the calorifier take off). The question is whether the air is from trapped air during filling, air being sucked in during cooling or combustion gases from a blown gasket or cracked head?

 

My current thinking is that either air is being sucked in during cooling, or as Chris Pink suggests, there isn't enough expansion space.

 

GOOD NEWS!

 

I spoke to Barrus Marine division today and they are sending an engineer to survey the engine next week. They said they have made modifications to their 04 45 models and are aware of overheating problems.

 

This is the best news I have had for a while, someone who actually knows the engine and it's issues coming to actually look at it!!