The Price of Diesel (white & red)

[dor]

I stand corrected then. But I don't see the difference, as its still the same principle be it VAT or Fuel Duty. The person responsible for determining the duty rates payable is still the purchaser, not the seller. As for the legality, I still believe that, technically, its illegal to enforce a duty rate that is not yours to determine

 

As I understand it, yes it probably is illegal to impose a 60/40 split. However, no one has to sell you diesel. If they don't like the colour of your hair or the shape of your boat then can refuse to sell you anything. Similarly they can just say they are not going to serve you. If you say "I will declare 60/40" then they may decide to change their mind.

 

Maybe if they sell you diesel and when you go to declare 20/80 they say "sorry you will have to declare 60/40" they would be breaking the law, but no doubt they make it clear before hand. It is up to them commercially if they choose not to sell you diesel. I would have thought that if anyone else in the area is allowing self declaration they will get the business because I understand very, very few people declare anything anywhere near 60% propulsion.

[BargeeSpud]

As I understand it, yes it probably is illegal to impose a 60/40 split. However, no one has to sell you diesel. If they don't like the colour of your hair or the shape of your boat then can refuse to sell you anything. Similarly they can just say they are not going to serve you. If you say "I will declare 60/40" then they may decide to change their mind.

 

Maybe if they sell you diesel and when you go to declare 20/80 they say "sorry you will have to declare 60/40" they would be breaking the law, but no doubt they make it clear before hand. It is up to them commercially if they choose not to sell you diesel. I would have thought that if anyone else in the area is allowing self declaration they will get the business because I understand very, very few people declare anything anywhere near 60% propulsion.

Spot on.

[ditchcrawler]

I understand very, very few people declare anything anywhere near 60% propulsion.

Some people insist on declaring more

[David Mack]

Taxman: Could you show us your fuel purchasing records for the last 5 years.

 

Boater: No. I haven't kept any.

 

Taxman: Why?

 

Boater: Didn't think it mattered.

 

 

I seem to recall that when this all started HMRC advised that there was no requirement for boaters to keep records of fuel purchased, and so it would be difficult for them to bring a case against a boater. They would have to collate information from all the fuel suppliers you had used to determine what declarations you had made.

 

A marina that declares a compulsory split (ie 60/40) and then takes your money with no paperwork could well be commiting fraud by pocketing the duty element and then stating 100% domestic to HMRC.

I have been to two marinas recently that didn't require me to sign any paperwork.

 

I think fuel suppliers are under a legal obligation to obtain declarations from purchasers of all diesel supplied to boats, and to keep those records for inspection. They will pay over the duty based on those records (whether fixed or variable split), so unless they are going to falsify the records they don't have opportunity to pay over less duty than they collect.

 

I'm not saying that all fuel suppliers are squeeky clean, but I'm sure most are, simply because the penalties of getting it wrong are pretty severe.

[Dave_P]

I seem to recall that when this all started HMRC advised that there was no requirement for boaters to keep records of fuel purchased, and so it would be difficult for them to bring a case against a boater. They would have to collate information from all the fuel suppliers you had used to determine what declarations you had made.

 

 

 

 

 

How would they know which fuel suppliers you had used, unless you told them?

[matty40s]

How would they know which fuel suppliers you had used, unless you told them?

 

More to the point, how do you know that a supplier you have used previously isn't using your boat number and name to declare ficticious duty amounts......

[BargeeSpud]

I can confirm Alan Fincher's assertion that the tax involved is fuel duty, not VAT. Seems I've had my wires crossed when speaking to the Bro, he clarified it for me today.

 

Sorry for the confusion earlier, although I still maintain that the principle remains the same.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Spuds

[OldGoat]

HMRC have stated that, although enforcing 60/40 split is sharp or bad practice, they are NOT going to take any action against RDCOs doing it. I think they feel that it's up to the market to decide (by boycotting those dealer who do). I don't suspect that is going to happen....

 

I just can't understand who some do insist on 60/40. There's no real difficulty in calculating the excess over the base Red price, the dealer has to keep records for whatever split is claimed, so no saving there.

The only thing I can think of is that the dealer only pays over the excess once a year - so it makes a contribution to his cash flow; thus would reduce his overdraft, but it's not a lot of money.

 

HMRC are unlikely to have a purge on the canal system, the money raised by catching folks "on the fiddle" is minuscule when compared with all their other revenue. They don't have the staff do do that sort of work and are more concerned with people running their cars on Red. They could do spot checks - just to keep peeps on their toes.....

 

To my mind - because "propulsion" hasn't got a legal definition in this case - it is not impossible to put a case for 10% propulsion on canal use, but would require an analysis of how much power actually goes into propelling the boat at the umm - propeller, all the other power is lost in heat. On a practical basis 20% is more believable and a sneaky look at dealer records confirms this.

 

So stop fretting!

[BargeeSpud]

HMRC have stated that, although enforcing 60/40 split is sharp or bad practice, they are NOT going to take any action against RDCOs doing it. I think they feel that it's up to the market to decide (by boycotting those dealer who do). I don't suspect that is going to happen....

 

I just can't understand who some do insist on 60/40. There's no real difficulty in calculating the excess over the base Red price, the dealer has to keep records for whatever split is claimed, so no saving there.

The only thing I can think of is that the dealer only pays over the excess once a year - so it makes a contribution to his cash flow; thus would reduce his overdraft, but it's not a lot of money.

 

HMRC are unlikely to have a purge on the canal system, the money raised by catching folks "on the fiddle" is minuscule when compared with all their other revenue. They don't have the staff do do that sort of work and are more concerned with people running their cars on Red. They could do spot checks - just to keep peeps on their toes.....

 

To my mind - because "propulsion" hasn't got a legal definition in this case - it is not impossible to put a case for 10% propulsion on canal use, but would require an analysis of how much power actually goes into propelling the boat at the umm - propeller, all the other power is lost in heat. On a practical basis 20% is more believable and a sneaky look at dealer records confirms this.

 

So stop fretting!

Once again, spot on.

[ditchcrawler]

I looks to me as if a majority of outlets on the Broads only sell at 60/40 and that the combined price per litre is a few pence more than you can by road diesel at local garages and several pence more than Tesco and co. i.e £1-40+ But then lots of them use to sell red at a few pence less than road diesel in years gone by.

[BargeeSpud]

I looks to me as if a majority of outlets on the Broads only sell at 60/40 and that the combined price per litre is a few pence more than you can by road diesel at local garages and several pence more than Tesco and co. i.e £1-40+ But then lots of them use to sell red at a few pence less than road diesel in years gone by.

Be interesting to know what they'd do if you refused their split after you'd been filled up. To watch them extract the exact amount that was put in your tank would be something to see.