Noisy Gearbox

[ROBDEN]

I have a Vetus 4.17 with a Technodrive TMC 60 gear box- these have now done 6000 hours. The gear box has the usual "clunk" going into forward or reverse - which it has always done. However, recently it seems to have developed what I can only describe as a "rattle" - sounds like a box of nails - when in forward between 900 and 1500 revs. This doesn't happen in reverse gear.

I changed the oil in the gear box and put the correct amount of ATF Dextron II oil in and it now sounds quieter - now I'd describe this as a smaller box of nails! If I replaced the ATF with a thicker oil I have a feeling it would reduce this noise, or possibly even eliminate it altogether. However, would using a thicker oil have a detrimental effect on the gear box? Your thoughts, ideas and suggestions would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Rob

[Guest]

I have a Vetus 4.17 with a Technodrive TMC 60 gear box- these have now done 6000 hours. The gear box has the usual "clunk" going into forward or reverse - which it has always done. However, recently it seems to have developed what I can only describe as a "rattle" - sounds like a box of nails - when in forward between 900 and 1500 revs. This doesn't happen in reverse gear.

I changed the oil in the gear box and put the correct amount of ATF Dextron II oil in and it now sounds quieter - now I'd describe this as a smaller box of nails! If I replaced the ATF with a thicker oil I have a feeling it would reduce this noise, or possibly even eliminate it altogether. However, would using a thicker oil have a detrimental effect on the gear box? Your thoughts, ideas and suggestions would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Rob

My money is on the Vetus driveplate. Others have had this problem and have fitted an R&D driveplate to good effect. My technodrive clunks like mad, but doesn't rattle. I would stick with the recommended oil. Are you battery charging in neutral a lot? This has been known play havoc with the Vetus box, and Vetus told me to run at 1200rpm if in neutral.

Hopefully member DOR will be along to describe his rebuild of his Vetus drivetrain.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Guest

[RLWP]

If it is the driveplate, don't leave it too long before you check or replace it

 

I have a gearbox in at the moment where the 'loose' centre of the driveplate has wrecked the input bearing of the gearbox. Fortunately, it hasn't damaged the input shaft or we would be looking at a whole new gearbox

 

Richard

[ROBDEN]

Thanks Catweasel and RLWP. Do you know if there's an easy way to check if it's the driveplate or do I have to remove the gearbox?

RobDen

Edited November 10, 2012 by ROBDEN

[Chalky]

If it is the driveplate, don't leave it too long before you check or replace it

 

I have a gearbox in at the moment where the 'loose' centre of the driveplate has wrecked the input bearing of the gearbox. Fortunately, it hasn't damaged the input shaft or we would be looking at a whole new gearbox

 

Richard

 

Failed dual mass flywheel on car diesel engines can have the same effects.

[bizzard]

I think those gearboxes have a separate gear pinion that slides into mesh when astern gear is selected, this pinion can rattle when not in mesh if a bit worn on its shaft. This may account for it being quiet when in astern gear as its then steadied by its meshing with the other gears.

[Guest]

I think those gearboxes have a separate gear pinion that slides into mesh when astern gear is selected, this pinion can rattle when not in mesh if a bit worn on its shaft. This may account for it being quiet when in astern gear as its then steadied by its meshing with the other gears.

I once saw a diagram of this box, and believe you are correct.

 

Thanks Catweasel and RLWP. Do you know if there's an easy way to check if it's the driveplate or do I have to remove the gearbox?

RobDen

The ones I have heard about removed the box, to find that the drive plate had all but disintegrated. Bizzarsd's point has made me wonder if it is the box. I would renew the driveplate as a matter of course when working on box if it were my engine, especially after 6000 hrs.

[MtB]

Failed dual mass flywheel on car diesel engines can have the same effects.

 

Indeed.

 

I had a dual mass flywheel failure on my Mitsubishi Pajero. A new dual mass flywheel was £2.5k yes!!!!!

 

My mechanic and I could not fathom out the reason for the dual mass design other than to perhaps make tick-over feel smooth like a petrol engine. Given the price of a new flywheel we just welded the two parts solidly together and bolted it all up again to see what happened. Worked a treat! We were right, the engine vibration at tick-over was noticeably higher, just like a normal diesel engine. No adverse effects otherwise.

 

Mike

[RLWP]

Thanks Catweasel and RLWP. Do you know if there's an easy way to check if it's the driveplate or do I have to remove the gearbox?

RobDen

 

It depends on your flywheel housing. Can you take some photos?

 

Richard

[Chalky]

Indeed.

 

I had a dual mass flywheel failure on my Mitsubishi Pajero. A new dual mass flywheel was £2.5k yes!!!!!

 

My mechanic and I could not fathom out the reason for the dual mass design other than to perhaps make tick-over feel smooth like a petrol engine. Given the price of a new flywheel we just welded the two parts solidly together and bolted it all up again to see what happened. Worked a treat! We were right, the engine vibration at tick-over was noticeably higher, just like a normal diesel engine. No adverse effects otherwise.

 

Mike

 

The dual mass flywheels are designed to take out the torque impulse caused by diesel engines and improve the vibration through the entire rev range. Its one of many mods to diesels to reduce the vibration and improve passenger comfort. Others include things such as mass dampers, balancer shafts, acoustic covers and undertrays, electronically adjustable engine mounts etc. There are single mass replacements for many flywheels although I can't say what the effect on the noise, vibration and harshness will be if ones fitted.

[nb Innisfree]

Don't recall any of that stuff on my old Audi 100 Turbodiesel, smooth as silk at all times, maybe because it was 5 cyl?

[dor]

The standard Vetus drive plate fitted to the M4.15/7 & Technodrive 60 is a solid piece of crap. There is a special R&D drive plate with extra flexibility to help reduce the TMC60 clunk (as supplied by Mick Sievewright) but this is prone to the rubber bits getting distorted which negates any benefits. It also tends to clunk when you stop the engine as it unwinds.

 

My solution was to replace the TMC 60 with a PRM 150 hydraulic box. it is more or less a straight replacement, just a few mm difference in length and drop. The joy of putting it into gear and having to look behind you at the wash to confirm it has actually engaged is wonderful for anyone with a trace of mechanical sympathy. (I also fitted a Python drive which enhanced it even further...) There were times when I half expected the engine to come up through the deck boards due to the ferocity of the clunk going into gear with the Technodrive.

 

Vetus also say that the engine should not be run out of gear for more than 20 minutes. I believe this is due to the oil circulation in the gearbox being driven from the output shaft. I'm not convinced about this as it only needs a bit of oil splashing around if the gearbox is not under any load.

 

Vetus did offer the PRM150 as an option - but a very expensive one as they didn't seem to give any credit for the TMC that wasn't used and added a substantial premium on top. Trade price for a PRM150 is about £600.

 

I understand that Vetus are now fitting a different gearbox to the TMC60.

 

You have to remember that only about 4% of Vetus' production goes into inland waterway craft. Most are used in inshore boats which are put into gear, cruise for an hour or two, then go out of gear. One trip in a narrowboat up the Audlem flight probably results in more gearbox engagements than a couple of years in an inshore boat. Hence Vetus have never shown much interest in the past in improving their gearboxes.

[ROBDEN]

The standard Vetus drive plate fitted to the M4.15/7 & Technodrive 60 is a solid piece of crap. There is a special R&D drive plate with extra flexibility to help reduce the TMC60 clunk (as supplied by Mick Sievewright) but this is prone to the rubber bits getting distorted which negates any benefits. It also tends to clunk when you stop the engine as it unwinds.

 

My solution was to replace the TMC 60 with a PRM 150 hydraulic box. it is more or less a straight replacement, just a few mm difference in length and drop. The joy of putting it into gear and having to look behind you at the wash to confirm it has actually engaged is wonderful for anyone with a trace of mechanical sympathy. (I also fitted a Python drive which enhanced it even further...) There were times when I half expected the engine to come up through the deck boards due to the ferocity of the clunk going into gear with the Technodrive.

 

Vetus also say that the engine should not be run out of gear for more than 20 minutes. I believe this is due to the oil circulation in the gearbox being driven from the output shaft. I'm not convinced about this as it only needs a bit of oil splashing around if the gearbox is not under any load.

 

Vetus did offer the PRM150 as an option - but a very expensive one as they didn't seem to give any credit for the TMC that wasn't used and added a substantial premium on top. Trade price for a PRM150 is about £600.

 

I understand that Vetus are now fitting a different gearbox to the TMC60.

 

You have to remember that only about 4% of Vetus' production goes into inland waterway craft. Most are used in inshore boats which are put into gear, cruise for an hour or two, then go out of gear. One trip in a narrowboat up the Audlem flight probably results in more gearbox engagements than a couple of years in an inshore boat. Hence Vetus have never shown much interest in the past in improving their gearboxes.

Thanks for that DOR. You say "more or less straight replacement" Does it involve cutting and drilling different things or just bolting on? Also what drive plate would you suggest?

[dor]

Thanks for that DOR. You say "more or less straight replacement" Does it involve cutting and drilling different things or just bolting on? Also what drive plate would you suggest?

 

The mounting on the back of the engine is identical - six bolts and a sort of keyhole mating surface. The PRM has a difference of 9mm on the length and 5 mm on the height. The latter can probably be accommodated by adjusting the engine mounts and the latter by moving the propshaft slightly.

 

I would recommend a standard R&D drive plate - one with a bit of movement but not as much as the special one I mentioned earlier. I believe Dave Mayall can quote R&D part numbers - or just ask them what they would recommend. The splines are the same on the PRM150 as the TMC60.

 

One thing to watch for - the engagement lever works the opposite way - after fitting the PRM I engaged forward on the Morse and the boat went backwards! Easily sorted by changing the cable fitting on the Morse (Teleflex in my case).

 

You will also need to fit an oil cooler - again a pretty simple job. The "2:1" ratio is also slightly different - 2.09:1 rather than 2.0:1. Actually in my case a benefit.

 

If you are interested, pm me and I will email you a draft of the article I wrote for WW a couple of years ago covering the swap.

[Guest]

I can confirm that DOR's Vetus is a completely different animal with the PRM conversion. The difference is stunning.

[nb Innisfree]

I can confirm that DOR's Vetus is a completely different animal with the PRM conversion. The difference is stunning.

 

 

Not so much that the PRM is stunning but having heard a technodrive engaging I would say they are stunningly bad.

 

Makes my arse clench to hear it.

[Guest]

Not so much that the PRM is stunning but having heard a technodrive engaging I would say they are stunningly bad.

 

Makes my arse clench to hear it.

Tell me about it! Slowing the tickover down helps a bit, but far from good. I have been told that using a different remote can make a difference, but have never tried it.

 

That said, I was sharing a lock once with a boat and noticed it too had a clunky box. I asked the bloke if it was a Technodrive box, but was surpirsed to learn that it was the smaller non-hydraulic PRM (120?) It was not as noisy as my Technoclunk, but nonetheless was "clunky."

[bizzard]

The Technodrive mechanical box has a steel tapered clutch ring lapped to match and engage into a steel cone cup. ''no friction linings of any sort to absorb engagement shock, just an instant horrible grab at the moment of contact.

[nb Innisfree]

Due to our LPWS4 requiring quite a fast tickover (1100) for it to run smoothly our PRM 150 does engage with a bit of a clunk unless I hesitate when engaging, I have thought about fixing up some sort of delayed action mechanism, probably based on a small two way hydraulic shock absorber of some kind.

[ROBDEN]

The mounting on the back of the engine is identical - six bolts and a sort of keyhole mating surface. The PRM has a difference of 9mm on the length and 5 mm on the height. The latter can probably be accommodated by adjusting the engine mounts and the latter by moving the propshaft slightly.

 

I would recommend a standard R&D drive plate - one with a bit of movement but not as much as the special one I mentioned earlier. I believe Dave Mayall can quote R&D part numbers - or just ask them what they would recommend. The splines are the same on the PRM150 as the TMC60.

 

One thing to watch for - the engagement lever works the opposite way - after fitting the PRM I engaged forward on the Morse and the boat went backwards! Easily sorted by changing the cable fitting on the Morse (Teleflex in my case).

 

You will also need to fit an oil cooler - again a pretty simple job. The "2:1" ratio is also slightly different - 2.09:1 rather than 2.0:1. Actually in my case a benefit.

 

If you are interested, pm me and I will email you a draft of the article I wrote for WW a couple of years ago covering the swap.

Thanks Dor. I would be interested but being new to the world of forums,I don't know what you mean by "pm me".

[dor]

,I don't know what you mean by "pm me".

 

pm = 'private message'. You need five posts to be able to use it. Click the little down arrow next to your name at the top of the screen and select 'messenger'.

[ROBDEN]

pm = 'private message'. You need five posts to be able to use it. Click the little down arrow next to your name at the top of the screen and select 'messenger'.

Thanks. This should be my fifth post.

[ROBDEN]

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

I'm going to fit a R&D drive plate and see if that stops the bag of nails noise.

If it doesn't then it's a new gearbox.

In case you're interested I'll let you know......

[Proper Job]

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

I'm going to fit a R&D drive plate and see if that stops the bag of nails noise.

If it doesn't then it's a new gearbox.

In case you're interested I'll let you know......

It's always interesting to know the results of any advise that someone takes.

 

It's useful for other to know if a certain solution works.

 

All so often, you never get to hear if problems have been solved (and how)

[Guest]

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

I'm going to fit a R&D drive plate and see if that stops the bag of nails noise.

If it doesn't then it's a new gearbox.

In case you're interested I'll let you know......

I would be very interested in your findings. Hope it all goes well.