What to do with my stove...

[Doodlebug]

Hi everyone, this is my first post so be kind!

 

We bought our boat in june, a 23ft Midway Narrowboat, and all has gone well so far, but its starting to get a bit chilly!

 

Under the floor there is no insulation, and I know (despite many people saying otherwise!) that loads of heat is disappearing through the floor. I know heat rises, but the temperature down at floor level os often 10 degrees below that of my table!

 

Anyway, Ive decided that rather than lifting the floor, and packing insulation under the floorboards, I am going to lift the oak floor, and lay down 50mm of celotex insulation, then lay the floor back down. I will do the same with the walls up to water level. I am also going to insulate the windows with some clear plastic stuff Ive bought which traps a layer of air between it and the glass.

 

Anyway, keeping on topic, we have a gas boiler, which works very well, only trouble is the amount of gas it uses up. I like having it, but i would rather use it to 'top up' what another source of heating cant provide.

 

I would like to run most of our heating from a solid wood stove. The trouble is that there is a distint lack of space! Being 23ft!

 

I looked into getting a small stove, and have seen some tiny stoves I could fit, but there is still the issue of space, and that the cost of the flue and fitting it all in will be more than the cost of the stove!

 

I was looking at rocket stoves, which have the combustion chamber well insulated, so that the fire burns very hot, producing little or no smoke. The heat is then taken off the chimney where the hot smoke is just as hot as the fire. I had planned to build one of these, and place it outside in the cratch, where I would then have a spiral of copper pipe within the stove, and then pass water through the fire, and inside the boat through the radiators.

 

Only problem is that I havent got a welder. So I looked back at stoves again. I was researching different types of stoves, and saw two interesting designs. Firstly, a stove which runs on pellets, sawdust, bits of wood, anything really. You fill the stove up to the brim, and it has a mesh tube through the middle, which is where all the burning happens. The fuel simply falls in towards the tube where it is burnt. Meaning it doesn't have to be restocked with fuel for about 6 hours. If the stove was to be placed outside then I dont want to have to keep going out to stock it up.

 

The other stove I saw is made by packing sawdust around a central tube, then remove the tube and light the base. Again, it keeps burning for hours as the hole gets bigger. Google 'sawdust stove' and theres a good youtube video showing it working.

 

Sorry if my descriptions are confusing!

 

Anyway, the sawdust idea works well because the sawdust insulates the burning, meaning that it burns cleanly with no smoke. So what I was planning was to take a large pot belly stove, and then have a set up just like the sawdust stove. Or pellet stove, i'm not sure which yet, but either way I was going to cut firebricks to insulate the sides of the potbelly stove, and then was going to have the central tube, with either sawdust or pellets packed around it, and then have the copper piping up near the top. From what I understand this should give alot of heating, and should do a good job at heating the inside of the boat, and I dont need to worry so much about the regulations of stoves in boats. Not to mention saving myself the trouble of cutting a hole in the roof for a flue.

 

Does this sound like it might just work. Other people have all managed other systems which work well. I am just combining the rocket stove, sawdust stove, and back boiler/radiator idea into one system.

 

Here are links to the ideas

 

Sawdust stoves:

 

 

 

Rocket stove:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_stove

 

The stove that uses the mesh idea:

 

http://www.workshopstoves.co.uk/oakfire-workshop-stoves.asp

 

 

Thanks for any help and advice you can give!

 

Doodlebug

[JerryP]

Without looking at the video clips you've posted ,i'm certain you would have serious issues with you BSC

[Doodlebug]

Why would that be, its not inside the boat, its not near anything flammable, it would be surrounded by steel.

 

It would be much safer outside since there would be less chance of a fire, and no chance of CO poisoning.

[Alan de Enfield]

The sawdust burning stove is 2x the price of a pipsqueak (see link)

http://www.canvasandcast.com/product_details_5.htm

 

 

The stoove is only 8 inches square and (under trial) heated our boat to 54 degrees C before we gave up and opened the doors / windows.

I hear what you are saying about flues and cutting holes in the roof but then you do not need to go outside to re-fuel, worry about the stability of the fire or lose your cratch space.

 

It may be worth checking with your insurers how they would view a 'non-standard' fire aboard.

[JerryP]

as said above it's a "non standard" fire

[Doodlebug]

The pipsqueek is a similar size to what i was thinking of.

 

Ill check with the insurance policy. I see what you mean, although it would be a standard stove, which I would just be stocking with fuel in a different way? I'd just be having a mesh tube in with the fire. Surely that doesn't make it non standard. Ish!

 

The copper pipe idea shouldn't affect it too much either should it? Again, standard fire, just with a tube going through it.

 

As I say ill have a read of the policy and see what it says

 

Thanks for the help,

 

Doodlebug

[PaulJ]

But bloomin marvellous for heating a workshop and getting rid of all them sacks of sawdust. Tempted to try knocking one up myself.

Are you planning on spending alot of time aboard over winter doodlebug? If you are not planning on living on it would it not be cheaper to stick with what you have or go for something like a diesel hot air heater?

[JerryP]

I'd seek professional advise before fitting anything non standard ,a BSC examiner would be able to point you in the right direction

[Alan de Enfield]

The pipsqueek is a similar size to what i was thinking of.

 

Ill check with the insurance policy. I see what you mean, although it would be a standard stove, which I would just be stocking with fuel in a different way? I'd just be having a mesh tube in with the fire. Surely that doesn't make it non standard. Ish!

 

The copper pipe idea shouldn't affect it too much either should it? Again, standard fire, just with a tube going through it.

 

As I say ill have a read of the policy and see what it says

 

Thanks for the help,

 

Doodlebug

 

I think the problem would be a 'non-standard' installation.The BSS (for example) requires the stove to be permanently attached (screwed down) to the hearth / floor. If you were to have a 'bump' with the stove free-standing there would be nothing to stop it falling over and burning sawdust / pellets from getting scattered around.

 

A copper pipe full of water inside my Pipsqueak wouldnt be water for very long - I reckon you'd have superheated steam and maybe even temperatures to melt any soldered joints.

 

Not being a plumber I couldnt say for sure but I reckon it would be a tad dangerous.

[Doodlebug]

Hmm it doesn't mention anything about stoves, nor about having to use equipment that is safety tested. Which seems unusual, especially since they specify that they will not cover damage caused by torpedos or supersonic jets flying overhead!

 

Is their policy the only documentation that they have to go by, I.e. if it doesn't say I cant do it, does it mean i'm still covered. Legally speaking?

 

Thanks again!

[Alan de Enfield]

You might get-away with it (insurance wise) if your BSS inspector passed it as safe.

[Doodlebug]

We are living on it over winter so heating is a must!

 

So if I were to fit the stove in the cratch in a similar way to if it were fixed inside the boat, I would assume it would be better. So If I screw it down, and have an extra barrier to prevent fire. The main advantage of it being outside is the space. The only space we have is under a table, so it would need a rather complicated screen to prevent fire, and the route that the flue would have to take is right in front of a window, so it would need another screen to prevent the curtains catching fire.

 

Space really is at a premium.

 

Thanks again, ill look into contacting a examiner

 

Doodlebug

[Ray T]

I'd seek professional advise before fitting anything non standard ,a BSC examiner would be able to point you in the right direction

 

I would agree with this.

 

If you don't get a BSC on renewal you won't get your boat relicensed when the time comes as C&RT require a copy of the BSC every 4 years.

 

Regs for stoves in boats here:

 

 

http://www.soliftec.com/Boat%20Stoves%201-page.pdf

[onionbargee]

AVOID all the youtube ideas you have, and go with a safe and low effort option of an off the shelf small stove, beware of anything like a welded gas bottle stove off Ebay, unless you know it's been properly designed and built, or you could end up with a carbon monoxide emitting, horror that voids your insurance.

[Alan de Enfield]

Another thought occurs :

 

Surely a very high percentage of the heat produced is radiant heat (given off the sides of the 'stove') and the rest going up the chimney.

 

As I see it your proposal of the copper filled water pipe will only make use of only a fraction of the avaliable heat - the rest will go to heating the outside world. - This appears to be very inefficient.

If you can fit the stove inside you get the benefit of this otherwise wasted heat - and (if proven safe) the benefits of your piping system

[Doodlebug]

This problem did occur to me too, I thought that I would use some sort of firebrick cement stuff to coat the walls of the stove helping to retain heat, and, assuming that the water doesn't super heat, i would coil the copper pipe around the sides of the stove too. If it was set up like the sawdust stove above though, the sawdust would insulate the sides, meaning only the top would get hot.

 

I agree inside would be better, although I would worry more about the fire rick. The only problem is fitting it in. There is space, under the steps as you enter the boat. You come in through the doors, and there is a step down, which we move to make more space. Behind is an alcove, the right height for a stove. But what is the BSC implications of having a 'roof' over the top of the stove (the deck) Also, there would be no need for much of a chimney, because it would exit the boat 15cm above the stove top.

 

Unless the stove could be mounted at table level, in which case a hearth could be constructed, like a shelf?

 

Thanks again,

 

Doodlebug

[Doodlebug]

Found a link that illustrates what i am planning to do, but I would use a pot belly stove instead of an old gas cylinder.

 

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91490

 

Hope that helps explain it.

 

Thank you Ray T for the link. Its going to come in use!

 

I cant see much of a carbon monoxide issue since its outside, and using a normal stove body, and we have a carbon monoxide alarm installed as well.

[onionbargee]

You want small ?

 

[Doodlebug]

Thats a nice stove, how much is it?

[luctor et emergo]

A fire in an alcove.. under the steps...

 

Sounds to me, that your only real option is a blown air diesel heater. You don't only need the phisical space to fit the stove, but also a safe margin around it. And why would you want to heat a radiator on a 23 foot boat?

[Doodlebug]

How do these diesel heaters work? Ive seen things on ebay, old bus heaters, it says they run on 12v and diesel, but i couldn't work out how it would work. And also worried about how much electricity they use. I agree the alcove is a bad idea, but its the only space not being used!

 

We need the radiator because without it theres no other method of heating, other than a stove, which is the main problem.

 

Thanks

 

Doodlebug

[luctor et emergo]

How do these diesel heaters work? Ive seen things on ebay, old bus heaters, it says they run on 12v and diesel, but i couldn't work out how it would work. And also worried about how much electricity they use. I agree the alcove is a bad idea, but its the only space not being used!

 

We need the radiator because without it theres no other method of heating, other than a stove, which is the main problem.

 

Thanks

 

Doodlebug

 

 

Ahh, but you are heating the radiator with the stove? So you would have the stove anyway.

Also, you say" we are living on the boat..", you will seriously struggle to fit around a safely installed stove. And won't need a radiator.

How big is the cratch? A stove outside will loose a lot of heat.

 

Small diesel heaters, such a s bus or truck or camper heaters (eberspächer etc) run on 12 volt, and directly from a diesel tank.

[Doodlebug]

Yes, we would need either a stove inside the boat, or a stove outside with a radiator to bring the heat in. I agree that trying to get around the stove would be difficult. The cratch is about 80cm by 70ish, but its not used at all because we enter and exit via the back of the boat.

 

These heaters, how much current do they draw, we run on solar panels, and so electrics are at a premium. If its a huge draw it could be an issue. Also how much diesel do they use. I cant find much info online about them.

[George94]

Not many diesel stoves use less than half a litre an hour. So you're looking at a lot of money if using diesel.

 

The fact is that a 23 ft boat is not really designed to be lived on, especially in winter. However, if you are determined to do it, a proper solid-fuel stove is your only viable (by which I mean economical) option.

 

So you will need to find a place for it.

 

Ignore very small wood-burning stoves. You'll spend your life chopping wood into small enough pieces.

[Alan de Enfield]

You want small ?

 

 

Apart from height that stove is bigger than the pipsqueak.

Pipsqueak is 8" square, 18" high and puts out 3Kw

The pipsqueak also has an ash-box and its own built in hearth.

As you may tell - I'm very impressed by ours.