Painting our Narrowboat

[Knackered Sailor]

Hi not been on here for ages but we are now in the process of painitng our Narrowboat.

We have come across a problem we painted it in red oxide after sanding down the original paint (THE RED ONE NOT THE GREY) Then sanded that down carefuly, then we put a coat of DACRYLATE on in the colour that we wanted, bought from a shop in the town where the boat is, and its where everyone else goes too. But the effect we got was an orange peel look even after brushing off , does this mean its dried too quick before the bubbles from the roller were brushed out, we used a foam roller! or is it the red oxide? we didn't put a undercoat on, should we have done that first? if anyone has any info on what may have gone wrong please tell me before I have a breakdown some people have said its the red oxide causing this and some say the weather. but could it be the paint we used on top the DACRYLATE tech help line say the red oxide that we used is compatible with the paint we bought.

 

Help please.

 

chris/steve.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Knackered Sailor

[NobbyNomates]

Might be worth watching this video

 

[matty40s]

Might be worth watching this video

 

I do love that video, it also shows the benefits of painting indoors where hot sun, rain, flies, duck shoite, overnight frost and heavy dew are either almost eliminated or controlled far easier than when painting outside.

[John Holden]

Probably too much paint!

[talisman]

I painted my first boat with red oxide and Int Ext gloss and never had a problem. I would have used undercoat in your situation unless there were large areas of bare steel.I have had a few problems when painting boats, but never had the orange peel effect. This is normally due to the roller and not brushing out properly , which could be due to paint thickness, speed of application and temperature. I know people who only use a roller and the orange peel effect dosent worry them at all. Its not the end of the world ,unless of course the painting is lifting and peeling.I still think its more important that you soundly prep the pre-painted surface, ensuring additional new paint adheres well.I have never had a problem with Dacrylate.

[Ex- Member]

I painted my first boat with red oxide and Int Ext gloss and never had a problem. I would have used undercoat in your situation unless there were large areas of bare steel.I have had a few problems when painting boats, but never had the orange peel effect. This is normally due to the roller and not brushing out properly , which could be due to paint thickness, speed of application and temperature. I know people who only use a roller and the orange peel effect dosent worry them at all. Its not the end of the world ,unless of course the painting is lifting and peeling.I still think its more important that you soundly prep the pre-painted surface, ensuring additional new paint adheres well.I have never had a problem with Dacrylate.

 

We've managed a good orange peel effect as I don't like too shiny on a boat. to avoid orange peel it's best to thin the paint if using a roller and lay off with a quality brush quickly within a minuet. Sometimes it's the primer that contains the orange peel as it's not easily noticed being a matt finish. To check ptimers and undercoat for orange peel wet the surface and rub the surface with the edge of a rubber rubbing block, if orange peel exists you will see it easily. Works with rubber window squeejies too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sharpness]

Dacrylate is a paint brand, not a type, it could have been matt emulsion!!!

I know it wasnt but what was it you used? The other thing I found was that Hammerite red oxide is completely different to other red oxides so there could perhaps be compatability problems, what red oxide did you use?

 

Steve

Edited October 8, 2012 by sharpness

[Knackered Sailor]

Thanks for the replies

I have watched that video and it amazed me so much I keep watching it lol.

The paint that we used was vehicle and machinery dacrylate gloss the red oxide that we used can,t remeber the type number etc but the paint company that we bought it from said it was compatible with the paint we had bought.

maybe the weather had something to do with it but when I think back I did the first coat on a none sunny day bit windy but ok and the second on a sunny day in the morning, I stopped when i saw the orange peel effect.

we used a foam roller and a good brush, we will check the oxide to see if that has the orange peel on it and if so will have to smoooth that out before we start again, we may put some undercoat on too I will get advice from the paint company on that one too. I was wondering if anyone had any advice on what grade of sandpaper to use to get a nice smooth effect?

Thanks for the replies so far will keep watching

 

chris/steve

[leolady too]

We used the roller and tip off with a brush technique. We used purdy brushes which many think are the best (they ought to be given what they cost). I'd say that speed is very important and SWIMBO put on with the roller and I tipped off with the brush immediately and then left it alone whatever the temptation to go back and tittivate. We did about 12 - 18 inches at a time and I am suprised at the area the chap in the film was doing at a time though it clearly works for him. Perhaps he'd thinned the paint or was doing the job at a much cooler temperature than us. I believe thinning is something to do with caution. We used PPA which is a conditioner or something, supposed to make the paint flow better but not actually to thin it. I think thinning with, for example, white spirit, can lead to problems including a cloudy/milky look later.

 

Between coats we "sanded" with a random orbit sander attached to a henry vac and used Abranet disks either 400, 600 or 800 grit, depending on the coat and the defect, if any, we were sanding out. Abranet disks are expensive but I think they are worth it. You seem to be able to use a finer grit for the same effect and they do last (although that's probably partly to do with using a vac to take the dust away so they don't get clogged).

[Ex- Member]

Thanks for the replies

I have watched that video and it amazed me so much I keep watching it lol.

The paint that we used was vehicle and machinery dacrylate gloss the red oxide that we used can,t remeber the type number etc but the paint company that we bought it from said it was compatible with the paint we had bought.

maybe the weather had something to do with it but when I think back I did the first coat on a none sunny day bit windy but ok and the second on a sunny day in the morning, I stopped when i saw the orange peel effect.

we used a foam roller and a good brush, we will check the oxide to see if that has the orange peel on it and if so will have to smoooth that out before we start again, we may put some undercoat on too I will get advice from the paint company on that one too. I was wondering if anyone had any advice on what grade of sandpaper to use to get a nice smooth effect?

Thanks for the replies so far will keep watching

 

chris/steve

 

To get a good flat finish use wet and dry with rubber rubbibg block. Between 300 and 400 grit max is ample abrasion even for a spray finish and will give the paint a very good key. If you're rubbing down recently painted gloss put a capfull of washing up liquid in the water, this will ease the rubbing down of any paint not fully dry or cured. A sponge and chamoise is useful too for cleaning down and dryinfg off quickly, if no chamoise then a microfibre cloth will suffice.

 

Your problem with orange peel could be use of foam rollers, they tend to bubble putting oxygen into the paint, and if not brushed out thoroughly can leave an orange peel effect, also the bubbles containing the air will cause the paint to dry quicker and can even result in leaving air in the paint which will eventually escape causing blisters. Basically they're not good for oil gloss paint, most painters use a short hair roller for gloss, give it a good wash before use to remove loose fibers.

 

We used a 9 inch roller cheap as chips from Wilkinson, but remember we wanted a mottled finish, but it is perfectly feasible to get a flat finish from the same roller if applied and laid off correctly.

 

 

 

 

 

[Knackered Sailor]

Thanks again for the replies, after reading what you have al said it seems it is most important to have a really smoooth core. So this I will do, I don,t want to thin the paint as it is quite thin anyway to me, would like to put some conditioner in it though to make it flow free. Where can i get this please? as I would like to try it, and how much of it to a 5 litre tin do I use.

We are going to see if we can get in the paint bay as that is covered, so should give us some protection from the breezes we get up there and the sun

 

thanks again

chris/steve

[larkshall]

Thanks again for the replies, after reading what you have al said it seems it is most important to have a really smoooth core. So this I will do, I don,t want to thin the paint as it is quite thin anyway to me, would like to put some conditioner in it though to make it flow free. Where can i get this please? as I would like to try it, and how much of it to a 5 litre tin do I use.

We are going to see if we can get in the paint bay as that is covered, so should give us some protection from the breezes we get up there and the sun

 

thanks again

chris/steve

 

 

I spray paint, but orange peel effect is usually caused by the paint being too thick (Though before anybody else shouts it can be too low a volume of air). For spraying I usually dilute 60/40,. Again as other have said rubbing down I also use 800grit silicon carbide paper, 400 for any serious imperfection. Again with a little soap in the water. Not household washing up liquid (contains salt)

[bowten]

Thanks again for the replies, after reading what you have al said it seems it is most important to have a really smoooth core. So this I will do, I don,t want to thin the paint as it is quite thin anyway to me, would like to put some conditioner in it though to make it flow free. Where can i get this please? as I would like to try it, and how much of it to a 5 litre tin do I use.

We are going to see if we can get in the paint bay as that is covered, so should give us some protection from the breezes we get up there and the sun

 

thanks again

chris/steve

Owatrol from most good paint stockists.

[Higgs]

The chap in the video was using my workshop. At that time, I was learning to paint. He only had the paintshop for a little over a weekend. It impressed me how much he managed to do in the short time. However, it was his own boat.

 

Whenever I've been able to reproduce the effect of orange peel, it has been for two reasons. Too much paint or not enough rubbing down between coats, or flatting.

 

I'd have to disagree that foam rollers aren't ok for glossing. When you need to swap a roller over quick, hairy ones are not good. Anyway, use what you are comfortable with. Some paints can be applied with a roller and settle out without laying off with a brush - Epifanes, for instance. Others won't and you need to check first. A roller is only a means to get an even cover as fast as possible before laying off.

[Knackered Sailor]

Thanks everyone some really good advice here , will let you know how we get on, if we get any done now with the weather

 

chris/steve

[Chris3]

Hi ,

 

I am keen to sort out the error of my ways as I now have another boat to paint so would be grateful for any constructive comments on my experiences !

 

 

Nine years ago we sold our first boat and bought a shell which we had delivered to our garden. This was in the good old days when there was more than 24 hours between showers and I was keen to get some additional paint cover on the delivery grey primer coat.

 

I went to my local paint stockist who supplied me with Akzo Nobel undercoat and suitable top coat paints. These I think were called brushing enamels. I arrived home with my tins of paint and suitable rollers ( supplied by the paint shop!) and set about the task of fine sanding and applying two coats of the undercoat as directed. Useful tip here from previous postings. The primer and undercoats are as important to apply evenly as the subsequent top coats and the tip about wetting the surface and using a window wiper to check for smoothness is brilliant. Wish I had been told that one before.

 

So with two coats of primer applied with domestic style rollers and a thorough sanding with fine paper, washing and wiping down with spirit damped lint free cloths to remove all dust I set about the task of applying top coats. For this I used a small foam roller and was told to brush out the bubbles with a fine, good quality dry brush.

 

Now a few points here:-

 

1) I failed to find a suitable quality brush that did not increase the graining in the paintwork or that would stay dry for long anyway. All that I tried eventually picked up paint.

 

2) For those who have not attempted this, you have this magical thing called a 'wet edge' . In an ideal situation you apply a roller stroke of paint and then you are able to apply another which covers new ground as well as overlapping the last stroke. You continue this for a short time before laying off with brush strokes in a vertical or horizontal direction ( but never a mix of both). This serves to get rid of any bubbles left by the roller and should bring up a high gloss finish. All this must be done before the wet edge is lost as you wish to progress along the boat. Now if you loose the wet edge and you continue to paint it is akin to pasting A4 sheets of paper and sticking them to the surface, overlapping each on another.You tend to get an overlapped tile finish rather than a smooth continuous coat. Now having made an error you must leave the paint to dry for at least 24 hours before sanding out the overlaps and blemishes the best you can before repeating the whole process.

 

Now I was trying to do this in my front garden ! The slightest breeze is a killer as it dries the surface of the paint instantly. So too does sunlight and warmth. I tried everything from rigging up makeshift covers to getting up early ... problem here with dew ! In the end I gave up and hired the local DIY dock for two weeks after I had fitted out the boat and put it in the water.

 

This worked fine. I had to pick the time of year when it was not too hot and not too windy( breeze dries the paint and also brings dust) but it made life so much easier. Two people are a good idea with one using the roller and the other brushing out as you really can't afford to stop for a second. This is worth remembering when you are doing surfaces like the roof as you must have sufficient paint in the tray to do the whole area without stopping for a refill. If you are confident that you have applied a blemish free coat you can start again immediately on the same area I am told for a maximum of two coats. The area must then be left for 24 hours and then sanded and therefore keyed before subsequent coats.

 

Instead of a conventional brush I used foam brushes to lay off. These are pieces of dense foam shaped at the tip and are held via a softwood stick. They are cheap, clean and easy to use. They too get wet eventually but can be cleaned cheaply or simply thrown away. The ones I used look like these ( but other makes are available) :-

 

http://www.google.co.uk/shopping/product/7343614853734535315?q=sponge%20brushes%20for%20painting&hl=en&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41524429,d.d2k&biw=1920&bih=950&sa=X&ei=cR0QUY-gNM3K0AW49YGgBw&ved=0CFwQ8wIwAA

 

I found the larger ones the easiest to use because they lay evenly on the surface without twisting in your fingers and I guess because of the increased surface area are less pressure sensitive. If you press too hard they can remove the paint too so be very gentle.

 

 

The only other thing I have to say is that thinning the paint down initially seems to give a easier application and a higher gloss too but as the paint dries the gloss is soon lost. I spoke with one person who recommended adding boiled linseed oil to the paint... I guess about 10% by volume which slows the drying process and keeps the wet edge for longer. However I used a product called Owatrol which smells just like linseed oil but we are assured by the manufacturers that it contains more ! Hated I think in some quarters but for the enthusiastic amateur that I am, it worked for me. Not cheap though.

 

 

As for the man in the video, I wish I could paint well at that speed ! In my humble opinion it is not an easy task. It must be done carefully and slowly ( but not too slowly) with clinical cleanliness, immense concentration and in a controlled environment . Hence the cost of a professional job ! It is far harder than the hardest of domestic gloss paints.

 

 

I failed to achieve a mirror finish because I did not apply a smooth undercoat but it wasn't too bad. I suppose we must remember that the purpose is to keep the water off the metal and if you do that you are 90% there.

 

Hope my observations are of some help.

 

Now I have a new task. I have another boat and need to paint the gunwales which are scratched back to the metal in places.

 

Do I sand all the paint off, sand and fill the scratches or what ? Help please.

[Higgs]

Do I sand all the paint off, sand and fill the scratches or what ? Help please.

 

Hire firms do fill grazes, because the boat really only needs to be presentable. Taking out grazes, by flatting, can be time consuming and the area needs to be feathered way beyond the damage. So, filling makes sense for some. Filling will probably be ok for the cosmetics, unless you're a purist.

 

Don't mix stuff in your paint, apart from small amounts of white spirit. Paint companies will not listen to any complaints, once they realise you've changed their recipe for one of your own. Companies don't spend the amounts they do, developing paint that need additives; they don't. Unless specified by the makers of the paint, keep it simple. During the years of boat painting I kept no additives in stock, as a rule. Rarely used any.

 

One person can cope with rolling and laying off. The chap in the video was in a hurry, using my workshop.

 

Wet edge. Don't try for maximum benefit if conditions just aren't right; sun blazing away and directly onto your work; steel too hot; you're just not working fast enough; you're trying to do too much; you overwork the paint, hoping to brush the marks out before moving on.

 

A painter generally will not pay too much attention to the brush marks. This takes time and practise to be aware of what's going on, speed and technique and consistency of technique.

 

You've got the idea of overlapping paint areas as you progress. Just don't linger. Apply about 2' of area and create an even layer. Very quickly, very lightly, brush horizontally then straight up. You may need to adjust the pressure on the brush as you reach the hand rail and take off. You've just done all that in less than a minute.

 

Your horizontal laying off is into the previous area, and not from the previous area. The horizontal laying off takes paint away from end of the area you've just layed down. Painting into the previous area will put it back, and so on.

 

A 3" brush with bristles of about 4", a full bodied brush with a reasonable spring. But, you don't want it fighting back too much. You don't want it burying into the paint. All finishes depend on the previous coat. Anything in the previous coat will be there in your new coat. So. flat is best. And if you've picked the right time and move along at some speed, keeping the wet edge ( that is, paint stays fluid enough to blend with itself ), the paint will do alot of the settling, removing the brush strokes.

 

A painter spends alot of time controlling the environment and picking the time to paint.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Higgs

[Boaty Jo]

Owatrol from most good paint stockists.

 

+ 1 (5-10%)

[Higgs]

It has to be everyone's personal choice, what is mixed with paint. I would advocate learning what the paint can do on its own. I suspect that most people don't paint enough to have the time to understand the paint. But, Epifanes do supply a product called Easy Flow, a retardant that extends the wet edge time for their paints, if conditions are hot and painting has to be done.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Higgs