Newbie with electrical problem

[DomX]

Hi All,

 

We recently bought our first narrowboat (2006 56' Liverpool Boat) and are on a steep learning curve! I'm getting there with most things, but seem to have an electrical issue that I can't understand. Basically, whenever I hook up to the shoreline in the marina and flick on the RCD trip switch on the boat, the trip switch on the shoreline trips! I've checked both connection points for any debris that might be shorting out the connection, but both seem clean and clear of any muck.

 

I've not got any further with checking inside the boat as there seems little point. There's a panel in the boat with on/off switches for everything (sockets, lights, fridge, horn, etc) and I've made sure that they're all switched off before trying to make the connection. The inverter was switched on when I tried to connect everything so I'm not sure whether that has anything to do with the issue. That said, from what I can gather, the inverter needs to be switched on when the shoreline's connected in order to manage the charging of the batteries.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Confused of Wiltshire (aka Dom)

[Guest]

Hi All,

 

We recently bought our first narrowboat (2006 56' Liverpool Boat) and are on a steep learning curve! I'm getting there with most things, but seem to have an electrical issue that I can't understand. Basically, whenever I hook up to the shoreline in the marina and flick on the RCD trip switch on the boat, the trip switch on the shoreline trips! I've checked both connection points for any debris that might be shorting out the connection, but both seem clean and clear of any muck.

 

I've not got any further with checking inside the boat as there seems little point. There's a panel in the boat with on/off switches for everything (sockets, lights, fridge, horn, etc) and I've made sure that they're all switched off before trying to make the connection. The inverter was switched on when I tried to connect everything so I'm not sure whether that has anything to do with the issue. That said, from what I can gather, the inverter needs to be switched on when the shoreline's connected in order to manage the charging of the batteries.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Confused of Wiltshire (aka Dom)

 

We had this and it was caused by the charger drawing more amps. than the bollard was rated (16amp).

 

Ours is a mastervolt combi and it was possible by the use of DIP switches to reduce the power (to from memory 16 amps and 10 amps). I reduced it to 16 and it still did it very occasionally but more often than not all would be well.

 

The most simple thing to try however is to switch everything off (including your charger/inverter)... connect the lead and then switch stuff on as I believe connecting the lead with a load on it can cause a 'surge' and will usually/often trip the bollard.

 

HTH

[matty40s]

Is this after cruising for a while or has it been moored off grid for a while?

what is the rating of the shore switch, and what is the rating of the boat?

You may find that you are drawing more power than the shore switch can take.

 

 

edited to add , same as wot e said.

have you tried a cruise to charge your batteries, then hook it up?

Edited September 10, 2012 by matty40s

[Guest]

Hi DomX - just read your original post again and I realise that you are not actually connecting the lead with a load on it as your are connecting the lead then switching the boat RCD to on, however I would still always normally connect the boat and then switch the RCD on and only then switch any load (such as the inverter/charger) to on in that order

 

If your inverter/charger still then trips the shore bollard as it fires up it does point to it drawing more power than your bollard can supply.

[BargeeSpud]

I have this when I connect my Honda EU20i to my shoreline socket & as soon as I plug in my Sterling charger, the bleeping trip bangs out. The Honda will power the charger when connected directly, but not through the boat's 240v cicuit breaker box.

 

I don't understand it either, but I'm going to check the amp value of the main trip on the box with the max draw of the Sterling as suggested by Dog House. The only thing I can think of is that the box might be wired as for domestic & not as boat. Don't know the difference & can't find out.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Spuds

[deletedaccount]

Hi All,

 

We recently bought our first narrowboat (2006 56' Liverpool Boat) and are on a steep learning curve! I'm getting there with most things, but seem to have an electrical issue that I can't understand. Basically, whenever I hook up to the shoreline in the marina and flick on the RCD trip switch on the boat, the trip switch on the shoreline trips! I've checked both connection points for any debris that might be shorting out the connection, but both seem clean and clear of any muck.

 

I've not got any further with checking inside the boat as there seems little point. There's a panel in the boat with on/off switches for everything (sockets, lights, fridge, horn, etc) and I've made sure that they're all switched off before trying to make the connection. The inverter was switched on when I tried to connect everything so I'm not sure whether that has anything to do with the issue. That said, from what I can gather, the inverter needs to be switched on when the shoreline's connected in order to manage the charging of the batteries.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Confused of Wiltshire (aka Dom)

 

All those on/off switches are 12v, so wired up from the batteries. I doubt they'd be tripping the shoreline.

 

As above, I think turning off everything that could be 240v, including the inverter (which sounds like an inverter/charger) to see how much it's drawing would be a good start.

 

I have this when I connect my Honda EU20i to my shoreline socket & as soon as I plug in my Sterling charger, the bleeping trip bangs out. The Honda will power the charger when connected directly, but not through the boat's 240v cicuit breaker box.

 

I don't understand it either, but I'm going to check the amp value of the main trip on the box with the max draw of the Sterling as suggested by Dog House. The only thing I can think of is that the box might be wired as for domestic & not as boat. Don't know the difference & can't find out.

 

yup, my gennie would trip if the charger was set to draw too many amps.

Edited September 10, 2012 by deletedaccount

[Keeping Up]

What sort of inverter do you have? If it is a combi (Vitron/Mastervolt/etc) which serves as a charger and an inverter, then it can be (and should be) switched on so that the charger part charges the batteries. If on the other hand it is JUST an inverter, then it MUST be disconnected otherwise it will blow the trips as it fights with the shore line for control of your 240v electrics.

[jonathanA]

As with any 'fault' a logical process of elimination is needed and to get the best out of this forum the more detailed and accurate information thats supplied the better the answer you'll get.

 

for electrical issues a simple diagram helps. trace the wires from the shore bollard and draw everything on a bit of paper. you also need to be very accurate, is it the circuit breaker or the RCD on the bollard that trips. most marina bollards have an RCD and then a separate usually 16A breaker (can be smaller). if its the RCD then you have an earth leakage fault (probably a neutral /earth mixed up plug or something like that), if its the circuit breaker then your drawing too much current either beacuse you have too many things plugged in, what you have is drawing too much current or there is a fault.

 

As others have said you also need to understand what inverter or charger or combined inverter charger you have and whether there are multiple Ac distribution panels/RCDs or some sort of changeover arrangement.

[ditchcrawler]

What sort of inverter do you have? If it is a combi (Vitron/Mastervolt/etc) which serves as a charger and an inverter, then it can be (and should be) switched on so that the charger part charges the batteries. If on the other hand it is JUST an inverter, then it MUST be disconnected otherwise it will blow the trips as it fights with the shore line for control of your 240v electrics.

Have a greeny

[Richard10002]

If the inverter is just an inverter, and not an inverter/charger, it should be made impossible for the inverter and the shore power to be supplying the boat 240V system.... On a previous boat with this type of system, there was a 1-0-2 switch where 1 connected the inverter to the 240V system, 2 connected the shore power to the 240V system, and 0 disconnected both. The switch had to pass through zero to get from inverter to shore power, or vice versa.

 

If it is an inverter charger, (which the OP seems to suggest), I would expect the shoreline to connect to the inverter/charger, then an output from the inverter/charger would feed the on board 240V system, as well as having an output to the batteries. Control of feeding the inboard 240V system would be taken over by the inverter/charger.

 

If it is merely an inverter, and not an inverter/charger, it should be turned off when the shoreline is connected for reasons given above.

 

To be more precise, I think we need the make and model of the inverter, or inverter charger, (whichever it is). We need to know what the shore power is connected to, etc. - as mentioned, a diagram would help.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Richard10002

[Arthur Brown]

Does the mains feed supply the charger, or does it supply the on board AC circuit? Is the bollard supply protected by MCB, RCD or RCBO?

[DomX]

Apologies for the slow reply all... I've been abroad on business.

 

Thanks for all the input and comments. As it happens, lil' ol' me managed to fix the problem (with the help of an expert on the phone!). Turns out it was a problem with the inverter and I needed to remove the panel, change the position of a dip switch and remove 2 loop wires that had been put between the earth and neutral. Not sure I fully understand why this was the way it was in the first place, but it seems to be working just fine now

 

Thanks again for all the input though...

 

Dom.

[nb Innisfree]

Apologies for the slow reply all... I've been abroad on business.

 

Thanks for all the input and comments. As it happens, lil' ol' me managed to fix the problem (with the help of an expert on the phone!). Turns out it was a problem with the inverter and I needed to remove the panel, change the position of a dip switch and remove 2 loop wires that had been put between the earth and neutral. Not sure I fully understand why this was the way it was in the first place, but it seems to be working just fine now

 

Thanks again for all the input though...

 

Dom.

 

Be careful, the earth/neutral loop is there to enable your RCD to work, don't test your RCD with the built in test button, best to plug in a proper tester. Some earlier model inverters such as our Victron don't have auto connect/disconnect E/N bonding, if earth and neutral haven't been seperated when connected to shore power then that shore power RCD will trip. Instead of getting Victron to install auto E/N bonding I just fixed up a 10A 230v light switch so that I can switch E/N bonding on or off depending on whether we are on SP or not.

 

There must be lots of boaters out there who think their RCD is working because they have pressed the test button instead of using a plug in tester. Ignorant bliss?

 

Just to add, use a plug in tester with SP disconnected or you will just be testing SP RCD. The idea is to test the boat RCD.

 

I use one of These

Edited September 14, 2012 by nb Innisfree

[DomX]

Be careful, the earth/neutral loop is there to enable your RCD to work, don't test your RCD with the built in test button, best to plug in a proper tester. Some earlier model inverters such as our Victron don't have auto connect/disconnect E/N bonding, if earth and neutral haven't been seperated when connected to shore power then that shore power RCD will trip. Instead of getting Victron to install auto E/N bonding I just fixed up a 10A 230v light switch so that I can switch E/N bonding on or off depending on whether we are on SP or not.

 

There must be lots of boaters out there who think their RCD is working because they have pressed the test button instead of using a plug in tester. Ignorant bliss?

 

Just to add, use a plug in tester with SP disconnected or you will just be testing SP RCD. The idea is to test the boat RCD.

 

I use one of These

 

Thanks... I'll get one ordered up and test it.

 

Dom.

 

Be careful, the earth/neutral loop is there to enable your RCD to work, don't test your RCD with the built in test button, best to plug in a proper tester. Some earlier model inverters such as our Victron don't have auto connect/disconnect E/N bonding, if earth and neutral haven't been seperated when connected to shore power then that shore power RCD will trip. Instead of getting Victron to install auto E/N bonding I just fixed up a 10A 230v light switch so that I can switch E/N bonding on or off depending on whether we are on SP or not.

 

There must be lots of boaters out there who think their RCD is working because they have pressed the test button instead of using a plug in tester. Ignorant bliss?

 

Just to add, use a plug in tester with SP disconnected or you will just be testing SP RCD. The idea is to test the boat RCD.

 

I use one of These

 

Ah... that eBay link doesn't seem to work for me. Can you please put the name of the tester on here and I'll look it up.

 

Thanks,

Dom.

[nb Innisfree]

Multimetrix VT35

 

eBay item #: 261092904200