Buying a boat as a complete Numpty

[Pat]

Hi Blokey,

I know you are being bombarded with advice here, but I personally would go down there, preferably with your solicitor, and insist on a receipt for the money you have paid. Don't leave without it. Call him up, tell him you are coming round the next day to pick it up, and then sit there until he gives you the receipt. That is surely the first step. Threatening to record phone calls and removing the boat in 7 days etc, will sound like empty threats if you can't go through with it. Its a horrible situation to be in, and chances are the guy is just an unreliable loser and you'll get your boat in the end. Hang on in there.

[charles123]

One thing not clear here, why would a legitimate "yard" take the money, not do the work and keep fobbing off the customer

 

While we have heard horror stories, seems like something is missing in the story

 

Charles

[nigel carton]

 

While we have heard horror stories, seems like something is missing in the story

 

Charles

Yeah like the name of the yard would be a start!

[alan_fincher]

Yeah like the name of the yard would be a start!

I'm not sure we are allowed to talk about this are we......

 

However, I'm sure there's no problem with me directing you to previous posts that Blokey has made

 

Topic 4050

 

Alan

[nigel carton]

Ah ok!

[allybsc]

I dont have any paperwork to prove that we own the boat Ally. This is what he is supposedly sending every day.

The only proof we have that they have recieved £25,000 from us is the bank transfer.

As I say we have been totally naive idiots. He told us that after the boat sank he needed the money to do the repair work before he could carry on with it and so we sent it to him. In fact as has already been said we acted as his banker and at this minute in time we have nothing to show for it other than a crock of broken promises.

 

Hi Blokey,

You have the record of the bank transfer, why would you give him that amount of money if not for a boat, he couldn't explain it satisfactorily in court, Judge Judy would be on him in a heartbeat, I'm sure the money is it's own reciept, go to the law depot online (i'll try to remember the url, if not search this site) formulate your own receipt and take it down for him to sign with your solicitor. Can your bank help? I wish I could be of more help, I want to shake these people.

Regards,

Ally p.

[anhar]

I think that too much attention is being paid here to the obtaining of a receipt. As has been said, this is not that important because clearly the money has been paid and can be proven via the bank to have been so. Even if a receipt were forthcoming from the vendor, this doesn't solve Blokey's case. He still won't have his boat with the repairs completed, despite having paid the agreed sum in full. The vendor will still be guilty of repeatedly failing to comply with their side of the contract to repair the boat, despite repeated promised completion dates and not delivering paperwork whilst continually lying about doing so.

 

The real problem therefore is how Blokey is to get his boat repaired whilst not having possession of it or alternatively to get his money back. To my mind the latter course is the preferable in these circumstances though I can't know all the details of the agreed contract, whether it is in writing etc. My suggestion is that he should go to court and try to void the contract on the grounds that the vendor has failed repeatedly to honour it whilst all the time lying about doing so.

 

So Blokey ask your solicitor if it is possible to try and get your money back on these grounds, your boating enjoyment has been ruined by their failure and so on. Therefore you now wish to void it and refuse delivery of the boat. Take it to court if necessary which, if you win, should then get you the costs and interest on the £25,000 too in addition to your money back. I don't know for sure if this is a possible remedy for you but your solicitor ought to be able to advise. If it is, the issuing of a writ to demand the money back may even scare them into completing the work on your boat.

 

Two words of warning on court action though. Firstly you may not win. We here as forum readers can't know all the facts such as whether you have a written contract for the repairs etc. and anyway I am pretty cynical about legal actions. It is not infrequent for morality to be turned on its head and the wrong party wins or gets away with an obvious injustice on some technicality. Secondly, even if you win, there is no guarantee that you will see any money. The vendor may well not have it and may go bust as a result. So there is some risk in legal action even if it is possible along the lines I describe.

 

regards

Steve

Edited July 7, 2006 by anhar

[Pirate]

Blokey,

Why dont you try a different approach, just say the sales off I want a refund, I was good enought to offer to pay for the work to be done and you werent satisfied so find another customer.

 

It wont get you your money back but it might rush them on.

 

I hope you sort this, because I`ve recently taken legal action in the small claims court, and the more I learn the angrier I become, the court officials tell me that these folk know the system, and the system is a waste of space, I`ll never see my cash again.

 

My advice though, is Do Not get angry, pretend to be friends you`ve got more chance then, because the last thing you want to hear is see you in court, sorry for being so negative but this type of matter is similar with what I am having trouble with as we speak.

 

Oh and DONT worry about the receipt, I have loads of paper here the cash is more important, or the Boat

 

Just a PS you can let yer anger fly as soon as you get your cash back

Edited July 6, 2006 by Pirate

[Blokey]

Well this morning Lo and Behold we had a recorded delivery with documents proving our ownership and a delivery date.

I would thank you all very much for the advice freely given and the chance to blow off some steam.

 

Im quite sure that people involved in this read this forum and that in itself has helped.

I would never have put names down on here without seeking the site owner's permission first, however I would have let anyone know via pm.

Its a complete puzzle to me as to why the yard owner would have let it get to this stage when all we wanted really within reason was proof of ownership and recognition that he had had our money. It was every penny we had. I was under immense pressure at home from relatives stoked up on testosterone who know "best" and he could have resolved it with the letter we have recieved this morning months ago so easily, however lets see where we go from here.

I appreciate that he held on for a month for us in the begining when we were being messed around with solicitors handling the money but trust me he has more than had that repaid and it isnt up to us to deal with his staff shortages and inability to reply to phone calls and admin work etc. It also doesnt help when they are telling you they have sent mail and registered mail on several occasions and zero arrives

Anyway fingers crossed that alls well that ends etc etc . Thanks again everyone and I will keep you posted.

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi Blokey,

 

As it doesn't seem to make any difference to the yard what you say or do, have you considered taking possession of your goods which you have paid for?

 

I would have thought that if you still wish to have the boat, as you have paid in full and nothing has been done in a reasonable period of time, you should be well within your rights to turn up with a low loader and mobile crane, and remove it to a yard that can do the work. Then bill him for your costs. The alternative would perhaps be to notify him of your intention to proceed with the above unless work has been satisfactorily completed by a given date. Perhaps your personal attendance with you brothers as 'Labour' on the day may assist in a smooth operation.

 

Good luck.

Roger

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi again Blokey,

You posted your latest while I was replying to your previous, so ignore mine!

 

Glad it appears to be moving on now

 

Roger

[Bones]

Blokey - phew! You must be VERY relieved. Very relieved indeed. I do hope this is the start of a smooth 'rest of the process' and that when the boat is finally in your posession that it is better than you ever dreamed. I hope the yard pull their act together and restore their reputation with you.

 

I am pleased you have the papers... lets hope you are on the cut soon!

[stuart]

Whats your new delivery date then?

[Jeanette]

Hullo to all

I am totally new to any kind of chat forum, so I'm not sure what I'm doing, but here goes anyway.

My name is Jeanette and my husband Jawn and I are from South Africa. We have had a couple of holidays on a narrowboat. We were so happy that when Jawn retires next year we want to come over, buy a narrow boat (2nd hand - bad exchange rate for us!!) and travel the canals for about 6 months. We then need to sell the boat and go home again. We are reading and absorbing everything we can about buying, but we would welcome any help you can give us. Please feel free to email us directly

[Blokey]

Well when we arranged all this back in the early days it was verbally agreed by the agent that she would sort out the transport and craning etc and that because she was fully aware that we are complete novices she was going to take us out for a couple of days on completion teaching us.

The price of craning and haulage was agreed and we thought we were having a marvelous time of it.

Now because I came on here she says my comments have "upset her" and she has reneged on her word. To be honest dealing with these people I have come to regard it as par for the course.

She says there are two parts for every story.

Our part was that we were 5 weeks late paying for the boat due to solicitors dragging their feet. We were powerless to do anything about it. I kept the yard and agent informed and there was never a doubt as to it arriving it was just the solicitors working their own pace. Our money came through on the 5th of May and we immediattely transfered the £25,000 into their account. We finally recieved acknowledgement of such after coming on here the other day.

Their part dealing with a customer who has paid them £25,000 up front has been more and more broken promises. Virtually zero communication. The agent herself throwing doubts at us regarding the staffing levels at the yard and telling us tales as regards his staff walking out and taking boat plans etc, saying its about time he considered customer satisfaction etc, really helping to fill us with confidence. She promised to meet me at the yard, we would go down and find out exactly what he was doing as regards work on the boat, go down and see him herself to sort it out then and never bothering to keep her word or to phone us when none of this comes to fruition. Everytime I phone her she says "oh I was just about to phone you".

Regards to the yard ,Every single time he has bypassed a date (4 of them now)and not once has he contacted us as to why. We have always had to phone him. Not once has he apologised for any inconvenience or delay. We have told both the agent and the yard several times that we are in danger of losing our mooring and it hasnt made the slightest difference. We have been treated with contempt and we were absolutely worried sick that the yard was going to go under and we would lose all our money and our boat hence in desperation I came on here..

We have been going to sleep worrying about it and waking up worrying about it. The whole thing has turned from something really good and exiting to a total constant nightmare and as cash paying customers I dont think we deserve this at all.

On Thursday night after being told that the agent was now pulling out of her word because I had "upset her" by telling you guys on here, I was taken into hospital with pains in my chest and arm, totally stressed out. I can easily prove this should anyone doubt me and think Im playing the sympathy card.

The thing is now that we spent virtually all we had on the boat and budgeted for the money originally discussed for moving. Its now going to come to much more than we have and we dont have enough to move the boat at this time if by some miracle it is ever completed on the 26th as promised in the letter and so we are now going to have to go into debt at the bank as well.

Warning to other numpties like myself, dont trust anybodies word, dont hand money over and nail them down solid with solicitors and it doesnt matter a twopenny damn how nice they are or appear.

This agent had the gaul to try to blame me for finally getting fed up of being treated this way and putting it on here. It seems rather strange that I havent mentioned names at any time regarding their identities and yet she recognised it by the facts on reading the post though doesnt it???

She say's "You try to be nice to some people and look what you get". Mmmmmmmmmmm?????

Edited July 9, 2006 by Blokey

[allybsc]

Hope you are feeling Ok Blokey, the agent is not doing herself any favours by going back on her word because she is upset, if she is such a sensitive little soul she should get out of business and go to live on a remote island away from people, modern life can be upsetting, we all have to deal with it. She should put herself in your shoes and ask who has the right to be more upset!!! Better still she should go into powerdrive and get it all sorted so you can post how wonderful she is, that would restore her reputation and sooth her finer feelings.

I hope she reads this thread and realises that it's a small world and people have a right to discuss things, you didn't name her or the boat yard, she should consider herself lucky.

Good luck,

Regards,

Ally p.

[anhar]

Best wishes for an early recovery Blokey. What those of us here are desperate to know of course is the identity of the yard! It's awfully frustrating when people write up their stories of appalling treatment yet we don't know or can't even guess the firms concerned.

 

regards

Steve

[alan_fincher]

Best wishes for an early recovery Blokey. What those of us here are desperate to know of course is the identity of the yard! It's awfully frustrating when people write up their stories of appalling treatment yet we don't know or can't even guess the firms concerned.

 

regards

Steve

 

See posts 28 to 30

[wrigglefingers]

Yes I echo those best wishes, Blokey. No matter how aggravating this is, hopefully it's on the way to resolution.

 

I suppose it is understandable, but regrettable, that the previous owners of the boat lacked the money to repair the boat on sinking, but at that point your deposit would have been fully refundable, due to unfitness for purpose, as you did not own the boat until you paid the agreed amount. Moreover, as you have dealt through a broker that the full amount should not have been handed over to the seller until you indicated that you were happy that the conditions for sale had been satisfied; ie the repair of the hull. I'm probably reiterating what everybody else has said and I've no wish to make your anxiety worse.

 

However, with the rumours that yet another builder has gone down and other instances of money being lost, there seems to be a need for the position on buying a boat, and the establishment of title to it, to be made transparent. There does seem to be a variety of different customs and usage which are further complicated by mis-understandings and assumptions. Remembering back to my levels of anxiety when I bought Surprise, I'm just wondering what the position would be with regard to holding money in an ecrow account; I would've assumed that this was the function of the broker or agent but doesn't seem to be the case. The seemingly total lack of regulation of brokers and their careful avoidance of responsibility should be looked at very carefully and approached with caution in the meantime.

 

Sorry, just a bit of ramble really.

 

Jill

 

Edited for reasons of style, elegance and spelling again!

Edited July 9, 2006 by wrigglefingers

[Bones]

What Nightmare! One hears of boat builders who cause stress to the customer, but one hardly thinks a respectable boat broker would be so difficult to deal with. Its not the first time I have heard of yards not holding their work, but that has usually been broken before any deposit is paid on a boat. But to have got this far is a nightmare. As they have your money I hope they do the decent thing and give you the full amount back so you can at least go elsewhere.

 

Some people amaze me. I don't know why I am continueally amazed but I am (and not just at my bad spelling either!)

[Cafnod]

Yes I echo those best wishes, Blokey. No matter how aggravating this is, hopefully it's on the way to resolution.

 

I suppose it is understandable, but regrettable, that the previous owners of the boat lacked the money to repair the boat on sinking, but at that point your deposit would have been fully refundable, due to unfitness for purpose, as you did not own the boat until you paid the agreed amount. Moreover, as you have dealt through a broker that the full amount should not have been handed over to the seller until you indicated that you were satisfied that the conditions for sale had been satisfied; ie the repair of the hull. I'm probably reiterating what everybody else has said and I've no wish to make your anxiety worse.

 

However, with the rumours that yet another builder has gone down and other instances of money being lost, there seems to be a need for the position on buying a boat, and the enstablishment of title to it, to be made transparent. There does seem to be a variety of different customs and usage which are further complicated by mis-understandings and assumptions. Remembering back to my levels of anxiety when I bought Surprise, I'm just wondering what the position would be with regard to holding money in an ecrow account; I would've assumed that this was the function of the broker or agent but doesn't seem to be the case. The seemingly total lack of regulation of brokers and their careful avoidance of responsibility should be looked at very carefully and approached with caution in the meantime.

 

Sorry, just a bit of ramble really.

 

 

 

 

Jill

 

 

 

Hi Jill

I think brokers and their behaviour are a very large can of worms, perhaps something for discussion on another thread, I ceertainly have a few axes to grind on this topic and there are several I would not consider dealing with under any circumstances. Conversely there are several I have found to be of great integrity and perhaps others have found problems with the ones I found OK.

Perhaps the only way around the brokerage issue is to regulate the buying and selling of boats, more red tape, more rules.

But if they will not keep their own house in order and it is considerable sums of other peoples money we are discussing here......................................................

Edited July 9, 2006 by Cafnod

[Crazy Scheme]

Theres a big difference between 'agents' and brokers. Blokey is using an agent, not a broker. All the agent does really is advertise the boat for a fixed fee. The fixed fee isn't much. They don't get comission or a percentage of the boat sale, just a fixed fee and for that, all they do really is field calls and organise viewings with the vendor. They don't handle the money for the sale either. The money transfer and the contract and all other bumf, chasing, paperwork, surveys is between you and the vendor, not the agent. They may offer or claim to offer to help you, on the other hand they may not as they are not legally obliged to. For instance if you bought a dodgy second hand motor through a private ad in a newspaper , who would you complain to? Not the paper.

It's a shame that this difference isn't more obvious to anyone buying boats through an agent. if you compare individual agents' and brokers' advertising (or any services they claim to offer), there's often little difference if any.

Anyway, if you are buying through an 'agent', you need to be careful. You have to check the boat out yourself exactly as if you were buying a boat through a private ad. and don't rely on the agent. Pity no one tells you this though! Seems you find out only after the event!

This is something I'm sure I've never seen explained in the Canal magazines. I've been reading them all for over a year now, in an attempt to learn about possible problems like this, to ensure we didn't

encouter any problems. But I've never seen anything pointing out the difference between a broker and an agent and there doesn't seem to be any legislation forcing brokers and agents to be honest about their legal position regarding the boats they advertise.

Edited July 9, 2006 by Crazy Scheme

[Guest]

Well when we arranged all this back in the early days it was verbally agreed by the agent that she would sort out the transport and craning etc and that because she was fully aware that we are complete novices she was going to take us out for a couple of days on completion teaching us.

The price of craning and haulage was agreed and we thought we were having a marvelous time of it.

Now because I came on here she says my comments have "upset her" and she has reneged on her word. To be honest dealing with these people I have come to regard it as par for the course.

She says there are two parts for every story.

Our part was that we were 5 weeks late paying for the boat due to solicitors dragging their feet. We were powerless to do anything about it. I kept the yard and agent informed and there was never a doubt as to it arriving it was just the solicitors working their own pace. Our money came through on the 5th of May and we immediattely transfered the £25,000 into their account. We finally recieved acknowledgement of such after coming on here the other day.

Their part dealing with a customer who has paid them £25,000 up front has been more and more broken promises. Virtually zero communication. The agent herself throwing doubts at us regarding the staffing levels at the yard and telling us tales as regards his staff walking out and taking boat plans etc, saying its about time he considered customer satisfaction etc, really helping to fill us with confidence. She promised to meet me at the yard, we would go down and find out exactly what he was doing as regards work on the boat, go down and see him herself to sort it out then and never bothering to keep her word or to phone us when none of this comes to fruition. Everytime I phone her she says "oh I was just about to phone you".

Regards to the yard ,Every single time he has bypassed a date (4 of them now)and not once has he contacted us as to why. We have always had to phone him. Not once has he apologised for any inconvenience or delay. We have told both the agent and the yard several times that we are in danger of losing our mooring and it hasnt made the slightest difference. We have been treated with contempt and we were absolutely worried sick that the yard was going to go under and we would lose all our money and our boat hence in desperation I came on here..

We have been going to sleep worrying about it and waking up worrying about it. The whole thing has turned from something really good and exiting to a total constant nightmare and as cash paying customers I dont think we deserve this at all.

On Thursday night after being told that the agent was now pulling out of her word because I had "upset her" by telling you guys on here, I was taken into hospital with pains in my chest and arm, totally stressed out. I can easily prove this should anyone doubt me and think Im playing the sympathy card.

The thing is now that we spent virtually all we had on the boat and budgeted for the money originally discussed for moving. Its now going to come to much more than we have and we dont have enough to move the boat at this time if by some miracle it is ever completed on the 26th as promised in the letter and so we are now going to have to go into debt at the bank as well.

Warning to other numpties like myself, dont trust anybodies word, dont hand money over and nail them down solid with solicitors and it doesnt matter a twopenny damn how nice they are or appear.

This agent had the gaul to try to blame me for finally getting fed up of being treated this way and putting it on here. It seems rather strange that I havent mentioned names at any time regarding their identities and yet she recognised it by the facts on reading the post though doesnt it???

She say's "You try to be nice to some people and look what you get". Mmmmmmmmmmm?????

 

Firstly get better soon. That is more important than anything. I know how you feel I got similar emotional blackmail after buying a dodgy car once off a main N**s*n dealer. After many rows and upset (the car had dodgy documentation-its first service had been carried out six months before it was made, 18 dangerous faults) I reported them to the manufacturer. They were brilliant, they promoted them to a five star dealer two months later. Eventually I had to go and make a huge scene at tea time when everyone was collecting their cars from service. They actually said they would ring the police if I didn't calm down. I said I would ring CID and trading standards and eventually got a cheque off the scumbags. I have never heard as many lies as I did during that experience. I agree, trust no-one with your hard earned. I am pleased to say the ****** went bust a few years later-just hope no customers got taken.

 

I wish you good luck in nailing them.

[Mick and Pauline]

Theres a big difference between 'agents' and brokers. Blokey is using an agent, not a broker. All the agent does really is advertise the boat for a fixed fee. The fixed fee isn't much. They don't get comission or a percentage of the boat sale, just a fixed fee and for that, all they do really is field calls and organise viewings with the vendor. They don't handle the money for the sale either. The money transfer and the contract and all other bumf, chasing, paperwork, surveys is between you and the vendor, not the agent. They may offer or claim to offer to help you, on the other hand they may not as they are not legally obliged to. For instance if you bought a dodgy second hand motor through a private ad in a newspaper , who would you complain to? Not the paper.

It's a shame that this difference isn't more obvious to anyone buying boats through an agent. if you compare individual agents' and brokers' advertising (or any services they claim to offer), there's often little difference if any.

Anyway, if you are buying through an 'agent', you need to be careful. You have to check the boat out yourself exactly as if you were buying a boat through a private ad. and don't rely on the agent. Pity no one tells you this though! Seems you find out only after the event!

This is something I'm sure I've never seen explained in the Canal magazines. I've been reading them all for over a year now, in an attempt to learn about possible problems like this, to ensure we didn't

encouter any problems. But I've never seen anything pointing out the difference between a broker and an agent and there doesn't seem to be any legislation forcing brokers and agents to be honest about their legal position regarding the boats they advertise.

 

Hi CS,

 

You have a good point, I had not noticed the differance between "agent's" and "broker's" and would have made the mistake of thinking they were the same.

 

May be it is something the BMF could sort out to make it clearer to the boat buyer.

 

Yes a good post, CS.

 

M & P.

[wrigglefingers]

Hi CS,

 

You have a good point, I had not noticed the differance between "agent's" and "broker's" and would have made the mistake of thinking they were the same.

 

May be it is something the BMF could sort out to make it clearer to the boat buyer.

 

Yes a good post, CS.

 

M & P.

 

Yes, a really good point. I think I did know the difference now I think about it, but it's not exactly clear. Moreover, I suspect that some people are claiming to be brokers when in fact they are acting as agents in law and vice versa. Looking back at the sale details I gathered, it's clear from some of the limiting clauses that were laid down that the person claiming to be the broker was in fact acting as an agent. It's time the whole process be made transparent. Like most people I'm happy to take a risk; I just want to know how much, so I can make a reasoned decision whether to proceed or not.

 

Jill