access below the floor

[designerstuart]

hi all

i've read a fair bit about this, but just want confirmation. lots of ppl mention the need for access to the bilges, for two main reasons - to pump out water, and to arrange ballast. but how long for?

 

i'm thnking that i will have a removable bit of the ply deck in each corner at the back, which would be inside a cupboard. this is to allow permanent access to inspect for puddles, assuming the water will flow to the stern. i'm thinking of having the same sort of arrangement in the area between the watertank (under the front deck) and the front bulkhead as a sort of 'just in case' access at the front.

 

these removable pieces could also have grilles in to improve ventillation. it has been mentioned that a little fan would allow the bilge to be used as a bit of an aircon space in the summer. any thoughts on this?

 

then the last thing would be the ballast, particularly left-right trimming, so i am hoping that the saloon area would do for this, as i can leave the ply unfixed there til after the fitout is mostly finished. i would like to fix down the rest of the ply deck asap for lining out, but am worried that i'll need to rip it up again.

 

thoughts please? thanks...

[Robbo]

The more access you have to the bilge the better.

 

I'm refitting as well, and having UFH, I'm arranging the pipes to go across instead of up/down as it will be easier to pull up if need be, also the subfloor will be arranged so can easily remove without sawing because you layed cabinets or wall partitions on top of a 8x4!

 

As I'm planning a wet room, the flooring in this area will be easy to remove and replace without any wall partitions been on top of it. These little things will help down the line!

 

Having a easy to pull up area at the back to check for water as you said is the the minimum I would do.

[designerstuart]

thanks robbo

 

that sounds very similar to my line of thinking. think we talked about UF heating before, but to make clear i am planning the same, and wetroom situation too. but how late in the project are you planning on having access, or is it just more that 'in the unlikely event...' you won't need to cut the ply sheets?

 

i mean, you are fixing your floors down, right?

 

so at lined out stage you have all the ply cut so the bits that have no furniture built on top are separate. then at UF heating stage you are taking your flexi pipes acrossways so that too could be flapped up, and it's only when you put down your final floor finish - clippy laminate wood, carpet, whatever - that you seal these panels in.

 

correct?

 

thanks

[Ex- Member]

Hi Stuart

 

Personally I would make access possible where ever possible, the walkway through the boat can be left accessible if you have floating flooring. Access at the stern as you suggest is wise and make it a s big as possible. Basically if you ever get a leak into the bilges you'll always wish you had better access.

 

Fans are a great Idea IMO In the summer they can really cool the boat down if you close all the hatches. I fitted 2 x 4 inch computer fans directly under the back of the fridge, to ease power usage, I have one under the bed and one yet to fit in the saloon floor. Keeping air flow through the bilges can only be good and keep it dry.

 

ETA

 

By the way if you've not put in ballast yet, I would lay your ballast on plastic strips, this leaves an air gap between the ballast and steel so any leakage in the future has a chance to dry out. Some lay it on scrap house wiring cable, I managed to find some solid plastic strip from a DG window company around 8 mil thick cut it into thin strips and laid the ballast on that. Keeps the bilges fresh

 

Edited April 16, 2012 by Julynian

[Robbo]

Yep your on the same wave length as what I'm thinking..

 

I'm planning to do the UFH and wooden floor near the end of the fit out, that way all the heavy stuff is in the boat and can then be ballast nicely.

 

Adding a few areas of easy access for ballast on either side will be beneficial (especially if you have PO tank at one side), but as these can be under cabinets.

[RobinJ]

i've read a fair bit about this, but just want confirmation. lots of ppl mention the need for access to the bilges, for two main reasons - to pump out water, and to arrange ballast. but how long for?

 

i'm thnking that i will have a removable bit of the ply deck in each corner at the back, which would be inside a cupboard. this is to allow permanent access to inspect for puddles, assuming the water will flow to the stern. i'm thinking of having the same sort of arrangement in the area between the watertank (under the front deck) and the front bulkhead as a sort of 'just in case' access at the front.

 

these removable pieces could also have grilles in to improve ventillation. it has been mentioned that a little fan would allow the bilge to be used as a bit of an aircon space in the summer. any thoughts on this?

 

then the last thing would be the ballast, particularly left-right trimming, so i am hoping that the saloon area would do for this, as i can leave the ply unfixed there til after the fitout is mostly finished. i would like to fix down the rest of the ply deck asap for lining out, but am worried that i'll need to rip it up again.

I found early on that the width of the boat was not compatible with the size of an 8x4 sheet, one solution was to use the sheets lengthways, cut in half, doing this allows 3 half sheets across the boat. If you have a side walkway or a centre one, this enables at least one section to be removeable the length of the boat!

You can also get round access panels (usually plastic) that can be recessed into the floor, one screw and you have a convienient spot to drop in a bilge pump, and they don't look out of place, even with laminate or carpet!

[Robbo]

I found early on that the width of the boat was not compatible with the size of an 8x4 sheet

 

I'm lucky, the flat flooring area of my sub floor is 8ft wide with the "beams" 2ft apart.

 

What's the correct wording for the "beams" again?

[designerstuart]

beams: umm, joists?

 

robin: i have the oportunity of hiding the inspection hatches, so don't think i'll need a proprietary one, thanks. i inherited ply sheets cut longways, with a join running off centre all the way from front to back. hopefully this will tally nicely with my side corridor.....

 

robbo: no pump out tank (we're using cassettes) and the ballast is already down. massive concrete slabs. from what i've read these aren't the best, but it's what i have, which is worth something!

 

question is, at this stage i have all the ply deck unfixed: is it worth me lifting the slabs (which are on a heavy damp proof membrane plastic sheet) and putting your little bearers underneath? or is this just a luxury not worth going back for?

 

thanks!

[Robbo]

question is, at this stage i have all the ply deck unfixed: is it worth me lifting the slabs (which are on a heavy damp proof membrane plastic sheet) and putting your little bearers underneath? or is this just a luxury not worth going back for?

 

Mine where on the same dampproof membrane, it kept it damp underneath as it trapped water. My new ballast will be on rubber mats that you can get from Wilkos that have little rubber "feet" so won't be able to trap water.

[sociable_hermit]

I would have at least three permanent inspection hatches, possibly more if it's a lengthy hull. Also make sure all pumps and pipework are easy to get at. Oh and a slot in the floor by the back of the fridge will aid the cooling of it, possibly with a PC fan if you can be bothered.

 

Yes, water in the cabin bilge will tend to collect towards the stern. But you still need to know where it's come from, without ripping out all of the floor. And then you need to get to whatever needs fixing, and fix it.

 

Seeing that there's water in there is the easy bit!

[RobinJ]

question is, at this stage i have all the ply deck unfixed: is it worth me lifting the slabs (which are on a heavy damp proof membrane plastic sheet) and putting your little bearers underneath? or is this just a luxury not worth going back for?

Always useful to drill a hole in the slabs where the bilge pump will drop in!

[lexicon]

i think underfloor access is important and if you want to see a easy way to achieve the access panels take a look at my build blog.

[nicknorman]

Our newbuild boat has small hatches cut into the ply at each place where there is a plumbing junction - eg where a radiator or fresh water pipe tees off. I guess the idea is that any plumbing leaks are likely to come from the joints rather than a straight run of pipe. There is also a hatch right at the back in the middle which can be used to check for water. These hatches are just jigsaw cutouts from the ply flooring with some support installed underneath and screwed down. They are normally all covered in carpet or lino so invisible, but relatively easy to get to if necessary. There is a more readily accessible hatch right at the back port side inside the wardrobe, where the skin tank is, so that is an easy place to check for water without having to lift carpet.

 

I did find some liquid in there recently - it was bright green which was a clue! Turned out to be a very slight leak from the Mikuni when it was running, that was running forward along the top of the swim and into the cabin bilge. Although the bottom of the boat slopes down towards the back, it seems that the top of the swim is built level with the water and perhaps with a full water tank is slightly down towards the front.

[system 4-50]

I'm planning on not getting any water into the cabin bilge. Not ever.

We'll see how I get on.

If I fail I will be honest about it and report it on here.

[designerstuart]

i think underfloor access is important and if you want to see a easy way to achieve the access panels take a look at my build blog.

can't find a blog called lexicon on this site - linky please?

[WotEver]

linky please?

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=41280&st=0

 

There's also a bit here.

 

Tony

[STUBAG]

I'm planning on not getting any water into the cabin bilge. Not ever.

We'll see how I get on.

If I fail I will be honest about it and report it on here.

I don`t wish to be a wet blanket (sorry) but you WILL get water under your floor at some time!During Winter I reckon to vacuum about half a litre a month of condensation,and this is on a foam insulated boat where the insulation stops about 3 inches above the baseplate,AND I have fans pulling air below floor-level from the front, shoving it through the engine room and out through side vents.Just make sure you have a "limber hole" where you can vac it out.

[designerstuart]

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=41280&st=0

There's also a bit here

thanks for those. mmm siskin looks nice! those hatches are pretty big, handy i'm sure.

 

so basically on lexicon there is an access strip right down the middle of the boat. is the final finish easily removable too, or does that need to be taken up if necessary?

[lexicon]

im looking at fitting laminate over the top but the back access hatch for mopping/pumping water out will be in the bottom of the steps that will be built in so will be accessable by removing the stuff stored in steps.

[designerstuart]

im looking at fitting laminate over the top but the back access hatch for mopping/pumping water out will be in the bottom of the steps that will be built in so will be accessable by removing the stuff stored in steps.

yes that's what i'm going to do

thanks all!

[lexicon]

yes that's what i'm going to do

thanks all!

 

if your going to get laminate make sure you select the right type.

[designerstuart]

if your going to get laminate make sure you select the right type.

what is the right type?

[lexicon]

what is the right type?

 

In my opinion the type suitable for kitchens and bathrooms as they will cope with the condensation issues that might occur over winter much better than the cheaper type.

[nicknorman]

I don`t wish to be a wet blanket (sorry) but you WILL get water under your floor at some time!During Winter I reckon to vacuum about half a litre a month of condensation,and this is on a foam insulated boat where the insulation stops about 3 inches above the baseplate,AND I have fans pulling air below floor-level from the front, shoving it through the engine room and out through side vents.Just make sure you have a "limber hole" where you can vac it out.

Do you think that forcing warmish (relatively) air past winter-canal-cold bare steel could in any way encourage it to dry out? The more air you run past the steel, the more new moisture you are introducing to be condensed onto the cold bare metal. Condensing water produces heat that might warm up the steel until the condensation stops, were it not immersed in the cold canal. I bet if you turn off the fans you will find less water in the bilge in winter. That said, I agree that some water will inevitably be produced but it should self-regulate and not need pumping out unless there is a significant circulation of air or there are leaks from plumbing / showers etc.

 

We certainly had completely dry bilges over the winter, although I admit that we don't live on the boat and it was probably only occupied for total of a month over the mid winter period.

[designerstuart]

The more air you run past the steel, the more new moisture you are introducing to be condensed onto the cold bare metal

interesting. i have not heard that side of the arguement before.