What sort of boat do I need?

[Albion]

Hi Roger,

Great advice. Can you give me a little advice on what sort of seaboat I should be looking at?

I have a maximum budget of £70,000 and was under the impression sea boats were more pricey.

Someone earlier suggested GRP boats... is that along your lines of thinking?

It would be amazing if there was a boat that could both get into the wider canals and the Med Sea.

 

The course sounds wonderful. Even if I start will a canal boat I'd like a sea-boat eventually so I will check that out.

 

Ah now there you have me as I'm no expert on sea boats, I have a modern Dutch-style barge (which was shipped over to France on a truck). I can tell you that there are lots of Dutch steel cruisers over in France but, the problem with most of them is that they are more cramped inside (due largely to their more veed bottom shape) and with more steps up and down to and from cabins than a Dutch barge or Dutch barge style boat. This may make your other use for kids parties here in the UK less than ideal. It's the same old conundrum, I'm afraid, trying to obtain a boat that fits everything we want to do and accommodate inside. It's probably just as well that the locks here in the UK are limited to just over 70 ft (in the main) because otherwise we'd have narrow boats of 90ft long just to get some people's stuff into them

When you start to choose your boat you'll find just how difficult these compromises can be to resolve.

Roger

Edited January 31, 2012 by Albion

[Alan de Enfield]

It may be an urban myth - but - several years ago there was an article in a 'lumpy water' magazine about an elderly couple who went over to France in their boat.

 

On trying to leave harbour to return thay were told they couldnt because their liferaft did not meet French regulations. Their boat was classed as an 8 berth, their life raft was a four-person liferaft. There was only two of them on board.

They had to go and buy an 8-person liferaft.

They were both past retirement age and couldnt even lift the new liferaft - but 'rules is rules'.

 

A second story then appeared :

A very high spec fibreglass cruiser went over to France, when they came to leave the suthorities would not allow them to leave as they did not have a sextant on board. They argued they had two completely seperate GPS systems (on seperate circuits and seperate batteries) and had no idea how to use a sextant anyway - 'rules is rules' and they ended up buying a cheapo cardboard sextant.

 

I know the French dont like us and our red diesel - So are these likely to be true stories or just myths ?

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi FF, I would be very reluctant to give advice on any particular type of boat, because until you gain some practical experience, you will not have enough knowledge to know the type of boating that you want to do. However, you will certainly get a good seagoing vessel well within your price range, and I would suggest that the majority of vessels in the size that you would be looking for would be GRP. It is the most widely used for modern small boat building and is comparatively easy to maintain compared with other materials. Wooden boats generally have the highest maintenance requirements and some particular needs different to other materials. Steel seagoing cruisers are also very common, with Dutch builders being great users of the material.

 

One problem that you will have deciding on a boat, is how much leisure use you want against business use. For instance, if you want to eventually do a lot of long distance sea cruising, then sailing becomes the most economical option, but also brings in a whole new set of skills to be learned. Sailing boats and inland waterways though are not a great idea though particularly as they generally require more manoeuvring space and deeper water. On the other hand, a diesel engined motor cruiser is going to be very expensive on fuel to get to faraway places.

 

It might be worthwhile looking at some of the small ads in boating mags and online for boat owners looking for unpaid crew members to get experience of different types, before deciding on your own direction

 

From my own perspective, I have owned boats for many years, currently in my eighth year of living on my 57ft widebeam and. have a 25ft motorsailer for coastal boating. This year I will be buying a larger sailing/motorsailing boat for sailing to the Med and further afield, certainly within the price you are looking at and in the 40ft range.

 

One thing to remember when considering a sea boat rather than a narrowboat, is that length versus accommodation is not a direct comparison. My 57' widebeam has a living area that is about 41'x10, whereas the 40' sailer that I am most interested in uses virtually all of that length for accommodation and has a 14' beam. It also has considerable useable outside cockpit and deck areas that are additional to the internal space. One final consideration is that if your boat is to be your home, then narrowboats tend to be better protected and heated against cold British winters, though that will be less of a consideration if you will be doing the same as I will and following the sun in winter.

 

Good luck,

 

Roger

[IainW]

I'm fascinated by the choice of boat for going over the channel to France. I think it will be an amazing adventure when you do it!

 

I'd love to sea some links to boats for sale that would do this...

[carlt]

I'd love to sea some links to boats for sale that would do this...

Clicky

 

Clicky

 

Clicky

 

Clicky

 

Clicky

[Fyre-Faery]

Thank You everyone. This is awesome. Though I feel like my brain is doing laps with all the information.

Volunteering as an unpaid crew member is a great idea.

 

I can see I'm going to have to put in some serious research before even deciding what sort of boat I want. It feels a bit like I have two different plans going at once, though I can only afford one boat!

I'm quite confused about the business & leisure balance, yes I need to clarify that first, I think researching both options together will reveal the best pathway.

 

Very interesting notes on space, feet, motorboat verses sailing vessel, GRP verses steel Roger.

Thank You so so much. DO the GRP's have much storage space? I had my gear in a locker when I lived in a van. It cost £500 a year which was annoying.

 

I'm assuming with a sailing boat you can't man that by yourself but with a motorboat you can?

I really want a plan that means I can adventure by myself. Or is this crazy with regards to international boating?

 

Thank You

Flame**)

[Guest]

 

Love this one!!

 

[Roger Gunkel]

Nice boats Carl! For something in GRP that can sail or motor, here's one I have had my eye on Link

 

Roger

[bizzard]

Personally

 

Edit. Forget it,its a secret,i nearly forgot.

Edited February 1, 2012 by bizzard

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

It feels a bit like I have two different plans going at once, though I can only afford one boat!

 

<snip>

 

Flame**)

 

Now, if that's the only thing you have discovered through this discussion, it has been useful

 

I think you have three - a home, a place to work and a boat that can be used in the UK and France

 

Not easy to balance those three, so it's no surprise your head is spinning

 

Time for tea

 

Richard

 

 

Love this one!!

 

 

More boat porn!

 

Richard

[Roger Gunkel]

Thank You everyone. This is awesome. Though I feel like my brain is doing laps with all the information.

Volunteering as an unpaid crew member is a great idea.

 

I can see I'm going to have to put in some serious research before even deciding what sort of boat I want. It feels a bit like I have two different plans going at once, though I can only afford one boat!

I'm quite confused about the business & leisure balance, yes I need to clarify that first, I think researching both options together will reveal the best pathway.

 

Very interesting notes on space, feet, motorboat verses sailing vessel, GRP verses steel Roger.

Thank You so so much. DO the GRP's have much storage space? I had my gear in a locker when I lived in a van. It cost £500 a year which was annoying.

 

I'm assuming with a sailing boat you can't man that by yourself but with a motorboat you can?

I really want a plan that means I can adventure by myself. Or is this crazy with regards to international boating?

 

Thank You

Flame**)

Any reasonable sized seagoing boat should have a lot more storage space than your van, although it isn't always a convenient shape! Being GRP, wood or steel makes no difference to storage, it's really a matter of what you prefer and understanding the different levels of maintenance required.

 

As regards single handing, all boat handling tends to be easier with more than one person, but providing you have sufficient experience and an easily handled rig, even a sailing vessel can be single handed, you just need good planning and preparation when entering and leaving moorings. Usually a sailing vessel would be taken in and out of moorings with sails furled and under power anyway. The other important point with sea passage making is that you need to maintain a constant watch which could be difficult or restrictive on your own. Many single handers would take a temporary crew member for longer passages and there are always plenty ready to volunteer.

 

Roger

[Alan de Enfield]

I'm fascinated by the choice of boat for going over the channel to France. I think it will be an amazing adventure when you do it!

 

I'd love to sea some links to boats for sale that would do this...

 

 

The channel is allegedly the busiest waterway in the world - I'd suggest that you need both the 'knowledge' and a fair bit of experience before considering singlehandling.

 

We had many years lumpy water cruising (motor cruiser) and there is a lot to consider. Motor boats generally come 'in' when the wind reaches Force 4, thats just when the sailing boats go out. Radio, Navigation, Colregs,Tides, currents, wind etc etc all make it interesting.

 

On a trip back from Scotalnd (to Holyhead) we had to spend three (unscheduled) days on the Isle of Man due to gale force winds, even when the Coastguard gave a 'weather window' we ended up with waves breaking over the Fly-Bridge and a very unhappy SWMBO.

Getting off a 'rocking, rolling and reeling' boat to moor was something else.

 

We had many happy years on the sea (it was only just over 2 hours to Ireland or two hours to the Isle of Man but it was this last trip that convinced SWMBO that the canals were the way forward.

 

My suggestion for whats its worth is get a canal boat and do your parties in the UK and then hire a boat in France for your holidays.

Take your 'Day Skipper' and 'Coastal' Qualifications then maybe consider a multi-pupose boat in the future.

 

I never regret doing the course.

 

http://www.rya.org.uk/coursestraining/courses/navigation/Pages/Coastalskipper.aspx

[Roger Gunkel]

The channel is allegedly the busiest waterway in the world - I'd suggest that you need both the 'knowledge' and a fair bit of experience before considering singlehandling.

 

We had many years lumpy water cruising (motor cruiser) and there is a lot to consider. Motor boats generally come 'in' when the wind reaches Force 4, thats just when the sailing boats go out. Radio, Navigation, Colregs,Tides, currents, wind etc etc

 

http://www.rya.org.uk/coursestraining/courses/navigation/Pages/Coastalskipper.aspx

Totally agree Alan and as I mentioned previously in the thread, it takes a lot more knowledge and skill to take a boat to sea safely than a quick toddle up the canal. When you do though, it is well worth all the effort to gain the freedom

 

Roger

Edited February 1, 2012 by Roger Gunkel

[Albion]

Thank You everyone. This is awesome. Though I feel like my brain is doing laps with all the information.

Volunteering as an unpaid crew member is a great idea.

 

I can see I'm going to have to put in some serious research before even deciding what sort of boat I want. It feels a bit like I have two different plans going at once, though I can only afford one boat!

I'm quite confused about the business & leisure balance, yes I need to clarify that first, I think researching both options together will reveal the best pathway.

 

Very interesting notes on space, feet, motorboat verses sailing vessel, GRP verses steel Roger.

Thank You so so much. DO the GRP's have much storage space? I had my gear in a locker when I lived in a van. It cost £500 a year which was annoying.

 

I'm assuming with a sailing boat you can't man that by yourself but with a motorboat you can?

I really want a plan that means I can adventure by myself. Or is this crazy with regards to international boating?

 

Thank You

Flame**)

 

Your requirements place such differing emphasis on the type of boat that it will be very difficult to sort out one suitable boat IMO. Looking at your posts so far we seem to have these:-

1. Capable of being lived on in the south of England. You don't say what parts of the UK system that you might cruise so there are implications for water-draft (depth of the waterway) and air-draft (getting under bridges).

2. Got to have an area large enough to host kids parties (without unnecessary risk to the kids such as steep and frequent steps etc).

3. Presumably you would like your living accommodation to be separate from the kids area so that they aren't rampaging through your bedroom for example.

4. Capable of crossing the channel outside the summer season of parties which suggests not only sea-worthy but capable of rough sea crossings as most inland barge owners tend to cross during the better weather window of summer.

5. Capable of navigating the canals and rivers in Europe and particularly France en-route to Italy(?)

6. If Italy then a voyage out to sea again as Italy isn't linked to the inland waterways of the rest of Europe.

7. Within stated budget.

8. Suitable for single-handing.

 

Ok, looking at this list I think it will be difficult to satisfy everything so, if I were you, I would start by prioritising the list (your version of the list) so that it will help to narrow down your final choice of craft. I don't think you'll have a problem with the budget as there will be stuff around within your quite healthy budget I'm sure, unless you fancy something like a Linssen (see: Linssens) which would be capable of doing the crossings and (some of) the inland French routes but are somewhat unsuitable for your parties here etc as I described before.

 

There are GRP boats with quite a bit of flattish space inside (the party requirement) but they tend to be more of the hire fleet shape (flattish bottom etc.) and not suitable for the sea IMO. There are also GRP boats that are suitable for the sea but, being sea capable and relatively fast, they will again be a problematic shape for your other requirements...not to mention largish engine/s with all the fuel consumption that that entails (for an illustration, my barge with a 90hp single engine uses about 2.5 litres of fuel an hour in gentle canal cruising (and in France it has to be white diesel not red) and that is considered economical for a 90hp. A sea boat is likely to use much more than that.

Storage on any boat will always be somewhat of a problem but, I would suggest that a Dutch barge style will give you the most storage availability.

Now we come to what could be a very significant issue; single handing. This isn't easy anywhere but can be more difficult on the Continent as the locks can be larger and they don't mess about. You will be mixing it with very large commercial craft in some places and the lock keepers won't hang around because some pleasure boat hasn't got it's ropes sorted because they are single-handing. Commercial craft get priority (quite rightly) but this means that you have to adapt to them in the main and not the other way round. I have significant reservations about someone who seems to have limited boating experience handling the sort of size boat that I think you'll need for some of your other requirements.

So, back to where I was before all this waffle, I still think that you're going to have to prioritise your list of requirements. Good luck

Roger

[bizzard]

Displacement motor boats at sea roll about something rotten,planing motor boats deliver that horrid jarring bashing in choppy seas,no it has to be a sailing boat for sea work, their motion is damped by the stabilizing effect of wind on sails ect much more comfortable,accept sailing directly down-wind when they can roll a bit.My choice would probably be say a 30 to 40 foot motor-sailor,best of both worlds,but of course a new skill ''sailing''would have to be learn't unless your happy popping around on the engine,with the sails furled or stowed away.

[Roger Gunkel]

Displacement motor boats at sea roll about something rotten,planing motor boats deliver that horrid jarring bashing in choppy seas,no it has to be a sailing boat for sea work, their motion is damped by the stabilizing effect of wind on sails ect much more comfortable,accept sailing directly down-wind when they can roll a bit.My choice would probably be say a 30 to 40 foot motor-sailor,best of both worlds,but of course a new skill ''sailing''would have to be learn't unless your happy popping around on the engine,with the sails furled or stowed away.

Roger

[Tam & Di]

 

My suggestion for whats its worth is get a canal boat and do your parties in the UK and then hire a boat in France for your holidays.

Take your 'Day Skipper' and 'Coastal' Qualifications then maybe consider a multi-pupose boat in the future.

 

I never regret doing the course.

 

I had to skip through the thread as there are so many responses. I hope I've not duplicated too much already said.

 

The Russian built barge looks very good and is not a bad price. HOWEVER it is too big for most (SE) UK waterways at 26m x 4.6m and you would find it extremely difficult to find a site to run parties for kids on. It is obviously very primitive inside, and I guess it has major surgery on the hull which is advertised as "new" but the boat was also said to be built in the 20s.

 

The cross channel bit could be done with such a craft, but it would need quite a bit of work and equipment to make it safe. It would be silly for you to get your own sea-ticket just for that. You'd be better concentrating on getting inland boating experience and hiring a skipper for the wavey bit.

 

France (and the whole Benelux/Germany bit) is terrific, though for the unprepared the word terrific might be replaced with terrifying. From your background I would not think that to be the case. There are too many things for me to mention in one post that need to be considered, so this is a preliminary list:

• A boat over 20m must now have a European Safety Certificate, and I did not notice if the Russian barge has one.

• On the larger waterways there is a lot of commercial traffic, and it is imperitive to know what you are doing.

• The majority of locks are automatic or have lock-keepers so there is little physical effort involved. A small craft (under 20m) can be worked single handed, but you’d have to be quite experienced to do so on the large rivers, and also have a boat which was set up to do this with its bollards and other working gear in the right positions. This is not true of a lot of cruisers.

• Most of the smaller French canals effectively close for maintenance each winter from about November to Easter.

 

Got to stop now - might come back if anything else occurs to me while I’m having lunch.

[carlt]

Displacement motor boats at sea roll about something rotten,

You've never been to sea in a Barnett 51' ex-RNLI lifeboat, then.

 

There was hardly any roll though, had I hung onto it, I would have reinstated the sails, purely on economic grounds.

 

The self-righters, however, rolled around like crazy.

[bizzard]

You've never been to sea in a Barnett 51' ex-RNLI lifeboat, then.

 

There was hardly any roll though, had I hung onto it, I would have reinstated the sails, purely on economic grounds.

 

The self-righters, however, rolled around like crazy.

No i've not.but it would still roll more than a sailing boat. The self righters would roll more,although safer in seriously rough conditions,the deep heavy keel pendulum affect can cause that excessive rolling,yes sails would stabilize that.

 

You've never been to sea in a Barnett 51' ex-RNLI lifeboat, then.

 

There was hardly any roll though, had I hung onto it, I would have reinstated the sails, purely on economic grounds.

 

The self-righters, however, rolled around like crazy.

No i've not.but it would still roll more than a sailing boat. The self righters would roll more,although safer in seriously rough conditions,the deep heavy keel pendulum affect can cause that excessive rolling,yes sails would stabilize that.

[Albion]

Displacement motor boats at sea roll about something rotten,planing motor boats deliver that horrid jarring bashing in choppy seas,no it has to be a sailing boat for sea work, their motion is damped by the stabilizing effect of wind on sails ect much more comfortable,accept sailing directly down-wind when they can roll a bit.My choice would probably be say a 30 to 40 foot motor-sailor,best of both worlds,but of course a new skill ''sailing''would have to be learn't unless your happy popping around on the engine,with the sails furled or stowed away.

 

What you say is probably true for the sea crossing but you're forgetting the transiting of the French canals en-route to the south. The draft of a lot of sea-sailing boats gives them real problems transiting the canals. They can't get into the side for example and we have had them raft up to the outside of our barge to use us a landing stage because they can't get anywhere near the edge. All the sailors(ers) that we have met going or returning from the Med have said what a poor experience it was for them with their type of boat on the canals. Also, some of them have to have their tall masts lifted by crane in the south and shipped by road while they boat the canals back to the UK (additional cost). Some do seem to manage to rig their masts on crutches along (and overhanging at either end) their craft but this severely restricts the space to clamber about when handling the boat in locks etc.

Yet another compromise decision to be made FF.

Roger

[Roger Gunkel]

What you say is probably true for the sea crossing but you're forgetting the transiting of the French canals en-route to the south. The draft of a lot of sea-sailing boats gives them real problems transiting the canals. They can't get into the side for example and we have had them raft up to the outside of our barge to use us a landing stage because they can't get anywhere near the edge. All the sailors(ers) that we have met going or returning from the Med have said what a poor experience it was for them with their type of boat on the canals. Also, some of them have to have their tall masts lifted by crane in the south and shipped by road while they boat the canals back to the UK (additional cost). Some do seem to manage to rig their masts on crutches along (and overhanging at either end) their craft but this severely restricts the space to clamber about when handling the boat in locks etc.

Yet another compromise decision to be made FF.

Roger

Easy decision if you want a seagoing sailing boat, 3 days across Biscay to La Coruna, then down the Portuguese and Spanish coasts and into the Med via Gibraltar. Can't see much point in getting a decent seagoing sailing boat if you don't want to take it to sea! It's a lot quicker to the Med round the coast than going inland, but if you want to stay inland get.a cruiser and spend all that money on fuel.

 

Roger

[Fyre-Faery]

Thank You so much everyone.

What an amazing outpouring of information. I really appreciate it.

There is so much going on here I think I'm going to slow down a bit, yes I am looking for too much in one boat;

and I need to relegate my sea-faring plan to several years time perhaps and a lot of study.

 

 

 

My suggestion for whats its worth is get a canal boat and do your parties in the UK and then hire a boat in France for your holidays.

Take your 'Day Skipper' and 'Coastal' Qualifications then maybe consider a multi-pupose boat in the future.

 

http://www.rya.org.uk/coursestraining/courses/navigation/Pages/Coastalskipper.aspx

 

Yes Alan, I think that's a good start. So with this in mind I'd like to change my line of questioning:

 

1. If after investigating licensing, regulations, mooring etc for the parties it just isn't worth the cost to run them on the canal (and I instead keep doing them on dry-land) is there a way I could live in my boat on the Surrey River System and return every weekend to the same spot to use my parked car? I have heard the waterways now chase you so you can't moor in the same areas without paying for a private mooring. Is this correct?

Is there a cheap way to live on the canals without Mooring fees?

Anywhere in Surrey but pref close to Guildford would be great. (And assuming here the boat is a broadbeam)

 

 

2. If I buy my canal boat and rental licensing and can find a private mooring from which to hire it out over summer - are there any more concerns associated with hiring out your own boat? It needs to be a special design to be hire-worthy and have a different safety certificate - is that right?

 

3. If during this time I learn enough, and find an enthusiastic friend to take to the sea with, how easy will it be to sell my canal boat? Which types of boat are the easiest to re-sell? How fast does a second hand boat depreciate in value?

Is it sensible to buy a boat if you are considering re-sale in 3 or 4 years?

I can see my Russian Barge might not be so great (I love how spacious it is though!)

 

Thank You all again,

Much appreciated

Flame**)

[bizzard]

What you say is probably true for the sea crossing but you're forgetting the transiting of the French canals en-route to the south. The draft of a lot of sea-sailing boats gives them real problems transiting the canals. They can't get into the side for example and we have had them raft up to the outside of our barge to use us a landing stage because they can't get anywhere near the edge. All the sailors(ers) that we have met going or returning from the Med have said what a poor experience it was for them with their type of boat on the canals. Also, some of them have to have their tall masts lifted by crane in the south and shipped by road while they boat the canals back to the UK (additional cost). Some do seem to manage to rig their masts on crutches along (and overhanging at either end) their craft but this severely restricts the space to clamber about when handling the boat in locks etc.

Yet another compromise decision to be made FF.

Roger

Quite true,but i think most sailing boats only wish to take a short cut transit to the Med and not particulaly want to cruise the canal network over there.A twin bilge keeled motor sailer ''much less draught'' with an easy to lower tabernacled mast and not a through deck to keelson job would be best of course,but of course most if not all motor-sailers do have that.

[Albion]

Don't know why that smilie appears mid sentence. I can't edit it out. Should be a 'b'.

 

Because if you click the 'Show All' on the emoticons you'll see the character set that gives that particular one and it is a bee with a following bracket which was what you were trying to type I believe.

Roger

 

Quite true,but i think most sailing boats only wish to take a short cut transit to the Med and not particulaly want to cruise the canal network over there.A twin bilge keeled motor sailer ''much less draught'' with an easy to lower tabernacled mast and not a through deck to keelson job would be best of course,but of course most if not all motor-sailers do have that.

 

But I thought that this topic was discussing FF's requirement, and I quote from her very first post:

Over the off seasons I would really like to leave the UK and take my boat into Europe.

To my mind into means into and, so far, FF's postings haven't disagreed with that.

Roger

Edited February 1, 2012 by Albion

[Tam & Di]

I am completely new to any sort of boating, I know nothing, so forgive me if the questions I'm going to ask are obvious!

Though I would love some help!

 

I would really love to get a broadbeam boat and live in it in the South of England. I host birthday parties for children and I think it would be a fantastic venue!

Over the off seasons I would really like to leave the UK and take my boat into Europe.

 

Could someone kindly answer these questions for me:

Is it possible to get a broadbeam canal boat or dutch barge across the English Channel?

If not is there any sort of house-river-boat that can make that trip?

 

Once traveling in Europe is it possible to get a boat via waterways to Italy?

Can one of these boats go in the sea for a bit or is that asking for trouble?

 

Thank You so much

Felicity**)

 

To revert to the original questions, there was nothing about going to sea for the sake of it - it was to get to "Europe". A couple of other things do occur to me. I sort of assumed Felicity to be talking about crossing to France for the winter, but that implies that kids do not have birthdays then - is that true?

 

I believe it has been mentioned in passing, but if it is to be a brief dash over between parties you will not get far - by inland waterways from Calais to Paris is about 60-70 hours boating, probably at least a couple of weeks for most people, unless they're into 12-14 hours a day like us. It does seem to me to be a difficult project on several levels, even putting aside all the bureaucracy involved in each aspect:

• Firstly is having a boat with enough space for the parties and a mooring (with car parking?) for same.

• Then getting the work - the advertising - which would be difficult if it is only done as a seasonal venture.

• Then closing down for 2-3 months minimum if there is some expectation of travel within France.

• Hiring a boat for the French bit is not really feasible, as it would be quite expensive as a longterm thing and F does not have a lot of money. Also if it is to take place in the winter, most of the holiday canals close down.

 

So it is a great idea, and I hope F can do something with it, but it is not something she is going to be able to jump straight into without a lot of compromise.