Canal side trouble

[nigel carton]

Totally agree, well said! when I was a teenager ( late seventys ) your other half and brother scared the s**t out of my generation, and we had respect, for them and our elders. Whats gone wrong? I deliver boats around the cut and fortunately have only had one incident, but I have to rely on local knolledge as to where I moor my clients boats, sad isn't it!

[wynd lass(nb.Black Pearl)]

Well Nigel, Its not just this, is it?

 

Where has Britain gone wrong with everything? I used to be proud to say I was British/English, and now.....Im not. (your not allowed to be are you? its not the done thing?)

 

In this country(our so called Leaders), will stand rocks breaking over their heads now, won't they? We accept anything... we are ecpected to accept anything (they) throw at us and we have to like it.....don't we?

 

Its going(gone) down the pan big time.

 

Say all you want about Margaret Thatcher, but you can't deny she made us feel good to be British, she stood no crap from anyone........ if she thought a job needed doing, she said do it, and it was done . No dithering.

 

Anyway I digress.........

 

One word of caution though......more and more knives and guns are being carried now by these thugs, and if you tackle them, its not a bloody nose that might be your worst injury, its death. (thats whats changed).

[nigel carton]

Hey, Maggie was good for me ( 17% pay rise in the 80's) when I was in the RAF!

I think we should get are heads together and patent a gun turret to stick on top of a nb! Reality is though, yes you have to weigh each potential situation up, If I see youths on a bridge, I will try and comunicate, but in the back of my mind treat them as possible hostiles. I did start carrying a catapult/paintballs and ball bearings... but the little darlings seem to have more rights than us. So it stays at home, a windlass in your hand though, now thats a different matter, if you know what I mean!!!!!

[stuart]

will stand rocks breaking over their heads now, won't they? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Only if the rocks conform to European sizes!

[wynd lass(nb.Black Pearl)]

Indeed....

 

What we need really is someone like her now, someone with more (balls) than any successors have had in the past, for sure she had them in abundance.

 

Is it me, or are all the politicians, all wimpering weasels? with no real back bone.

 

I'm a big beleiver in things going full circle.......BUT can we handle a zero tolerance type of government and police?

 

I can. For the right reasons, sure I can.

 

The thing is, us decent people, have been brought up to respect other people and their property, but we have an element at work in this country who have, for whatever reason, not had discapline/love and guidance from (dare i say it, their parents), some youths/kids bring themselves up, with some parents not giving a stuff what their little darlings are doing, as long as they are out of their way. So naturally, kids do what kids do, and look for "fun". And they carry's on into adult hood doing just that because really, they know no better. Words rarely have much of an effect on the really bad ones, im afraid.......

 

So what to do?

 

I do know that in New York, the police have/had got a hard line zero tolerance policy in some of the really bad areas, and now they apparently have more or less got things sorted........maybe the good ol U.S of A is where we need to start looking for the answers?

 

Over and Out..........

[maffi mushkila]

And before you all kick off at me......my better half is a Police Officer and also my Brother

 

Cant agree more Wyndy babe but I think you might like to clarify the quoted sentence.

[maffi mushkila]

Hey, Maggie was good for me ( 17% pay rise in the 80's) when I was in the RAF!

 

Only 17%? Maggie's triumphant march into Downing Street was heralded by "1% for every 1% of increase of the RPI for our over burdend armed forces". In 79 it went up about 29%, thank you Maggie, and thank you to all you taxpayers for your continued if unknowing support.

Edited December 20, 2004 by maffi mushkila

[maffi mushkila]

What we need really is someone like her now, someone with more (balls) than any successors have had in the past, for sure she had them in abundance.

 

Is it me, or are all the politicians, all wimpering weasels? with no real back bone.

<snip>

I do know that in New York, the police have/had got a hard line zero tolerance policy in some of the really bad areas, and now they apparently have more or less got things sorted........maybe the good ol U.S of A is where we need to start looking for the answers?

 

I would like my priminister and attendant ministers/MP's to at least look as if they could handle themselves, most of them don't appear to be able to punch their way out of a wet paper bag, but along with the tough line Maggie took on crime also came a lot of unemployment, do we really want that to happen again?

 

Zero tolerance in NY covered 'every' law including litterbugs, jay walkers and the like. The little laws that we little people seem to flout not thinking it really matters came in to the Zero tolerance equation. Do you really think it right to get a criminal record for crossing the road in the wrong place?

[Big COL]

Wynd Lass

 

You've gone and done it now, you've got me chomping on the bit, just reading your post. You're being too kind - must be the pacifist in you. I would do a lot more than you are suggesting, what kind of society have we become when eighty year old ladies are mugged and raped. designer drugs, more people snort a line of coke than the number of people that smoke but they're hell bent on stopping people smoking. It's a pity the same level of energy isn't applied to drugs and violence.

Parental control I hear them say, true - but have you ever thought who spends the most time with our children during their formative years. School teachers is the answer and when I was a child their hold over a class of children was amazing, but this nanny state has taken away any right of discipline in the schools so that they have no tools to command the respect that we would expect our children to show. It gets worse - now a parent cannot administer punishment in the style that we as children had to endure.

My farther was a hard Yorkshire man with strong family values and in my early years I was very wary of him, but when my own children were young I found myself applying very similar rules and values to my children. They are now two very nice adults, polite and courteous, and two good friends, so the hard line has worked for two generations in my case very successfully I could go on all night but I think the old adage sums it up.

 

SPARE THE ROD AND SPOIL THE CHILD.

[Guest]

When I put my 'tuppenceworth' into this thread, back at the end of page 1, I was worried that I was going to be a lone voice. Since then, thanks mainly to Wynd Lass, the tone has changed and the voice of the 'sensible majority' is being heard.

I know the Law Jon,

and I know the price I'll pay if I step outside it and get caught,

but I also know the "law of the streets"

and I know the price we will all have to pay if we l let it take over.

 

We dont have to join your gang Wynd Lass, we're all in it already!

 

Peter

[Richard Bustens]

Wise words Pete.

[Mrhigherbeing]

NIGEL CARTON you didn’t seem an angry man when I bought Eagles Providence from you, how are you?

 

Well that seems to have been a thought provoking thread!

 

Thanks for the advice, contradicting by miles as ever, but none-the-less interesting.

 

So as the law stands I can use 'reasonable force’ and I presume that means I should leave my bat in the boat.

I am however a pacifist and hate violence, but in these thugs I see all that is wrong with the world and it makes me boil with anger.

Problem is it is not their fault they are idiots, it’s an English cultural problem as with the highly publicised binge drinking problem.

 

My advice to all is to make peace with these idiots and try to install some form of understanding of moral fibre. By beating the shite out of them the problem will be compounded in that they will target your boat, they may get others involved and/or family, the police may not see it your way and or course a gang of kids are VERY capable of damaging you instead!

 

You have to think about WHY you want to beat the hell out of them, is it too teach them a lesson? or is it to get revenge on the yob culture of the UK and make yourself feel satisfied about the wrong they have caused you?.

The lesson will not be received by fighting them; you will only feel better for a short time until you hear that another girl has been killed.

You cannot meet violence with violence its a basic formula for more violence.

 

 

I do understand those threads that say give em a slap, its hard not too but giving into that feeling is as ignorant as those thugs are.

As for being proud to say we are British, hell to that I am not proud. Our history is one of war and repression, just like the US is now.

 

Finally I would like to say that we cannot asses all groups of kids that hang out on the canal as thugs, they may look like it and sound like it but may just be some kids that wear hoods for fashion reasons or kids that swear because its big-n-hard, although it may be understandable to be cautious of them as we just don’t know!

 

 

Take care all

 

IAN

Edited December 21, 2004 by Mrhigherbeing

[maffi mushkila]

they may look like it and sound like it but may just be some kids that wear hoods for fashion reasons or kids that swear because its big-n-hard, although it may be understandable to be cautious of them as we just don’t know!

Take care all.

 

Walks like a duck talks like a duck, it aint no bird of paradise!

[Jon]

Lets try and keep the discussion on the topic of how to combat problems.

 

Takes site crew badge off

 

Retaliation to any youth is going to

 

a) make the problems worse - even if not for you, for the next boater that happens to pass. Any offenders are likely to return with more of their mates later or the next day to wreak their revenge, and thats not going to help anyone.

 

b ) get you in to trouble - you are easily identifiable. "The bloke got out of that boat called "XXXX" and hit me...

 

c) get you into danger. Some trouble makers today are now carrying weapons, you stand to be hurt.

 

It is not for the general public to adminster 'punishments' to people, particularly kids. Afterall, would you like to know that someone had 'punished' your child?

 

And lets not tar all young people with the same brush.. we have young contributors on this site, Sam, DHutch and myself are all 20 or under, and I know plenty of young peole who do have a genuine interest.

 

I, for one, would like to see that everyone, of any age is welcome to use the towpaths, and some of the comments being made above are not exactly showing boaters and the friendly people they have a reputation to be. There is a topic in General Boating at the moment called 'Are we special?', with some of the views above, apparentely not.

 

How do you plan to differentiate between youths? When I walk down the towpath, often I wear a hooded top, I probably look suspicious, does that mean you would want to send me away too? Lets be realistic here, if boaters get a reputation for assaulting kids then do you really think that the canals will continue to be visited by tourists etc, or do you want an elitist community, and a them and us attitude?

 

The best course of action in any circumstance is to dial 999 and get the police. The more reports that are made the better. Report everything to BW, and where you deem appropriate, to the police. This will begin to highlight the problem. If we work together with the authorities, then although it would be difficult, it may be possible to find a solution. However, if you start adminstering 'rough justice' then all thats going to happen is the problems will esculate, and it will become (more) dangerous for kids and boaters alike to go into certain areas, and we'll all be back to square one.

 

puts site crew badge back on

 

For the record, I would like to remind users that they, and they alone are responsible for what they post, and I (Canal World) take no responsibility for any consequencies that may occur, and certaintly do not condone any illegal actions being taken. I'll be watching this thread. Lets keep it on practical legal solutions to the problem that some youths are causing...

 

 

 

Jon

Edited December 22, 2004 by Jon

[maffi mushkila]

<snip> Lets keep it on practical legal solutions to the problem that some youths are causing...

Jon

 

Hi Jon

 

Does supergluing their hands to a mooring bollard count as legal!

[wynd lass(nb.Black Pearl)]

Jon;

 

You qoute saying, " Its not for the general public to administer punishment to your kids"...... well I certainly know that a lot of parents would say that if their kid had done anything to warrent a clip round the ear, then it never hurt them, (as a kid). It teaches kids how far they can go Jon........ The "Please stop doing that darling" brigade can talk till they go blue in the face at their kids, but nothing quite hits the spot like a slapped backside if you press things too far, Im afraid.

 

As for showing people that we are nice people on the canal's Jon, yes we are......(mostly) , but lets wake up and smell the coffee here.......the canal is like a lot of other places, and occasionally you bump into the thug element, and Im afraid, like it or not, this is society as it is now.

 

Yes ringing 999 is a good Idea........but........how long do you have to wait?. Will they turn up today? or will it be tomorrow? The sad fact of life is this, we have not got enough police to go round, (as you should know?). And how on earth have we arrived at a situation where police arn't allowed to patrol certain areas? (lets say, "sensitive" areas, for fear of causing local unrest?), this seems incredible doesn't it? this is the UK and we have Ghetto areas that have "diplomatic ammunity"!

 

Dear reader, "What go's around comes around"....as the saying go's.......lets hope that before much longer someone, somewhere, gets a firm grip on this country, and does something for Great Britain PLC.

 

(that'll give you sommat to thingk about!)

[Guest]

West Midland News tonight; the Stagecoach Bus Service in Gloucester is considering ending a particular service to one area of the City because of continual assault on buses, drivers and passengers. Buses are being stoned and fired on with air rifles. On one occasion kids on bikes blocked the road so that the bus was even more vulnerable.

If the service is stopped, the elderly and the low income residents who have no transport of their own, are left with no way to get to the shops or the doctor etc.

 

no-go bus routes ... canal towpaths ... ???

 

There are already areas of Manchester where none of us would walk alone after dark and as I understand it, places there where you dont moor overnight.

[Paul Evans]

I'm with Jon on this one. Rough justice, vigilante tactics have never caused anything but trouble for others. It's very easy to get worked up and retaliate against the hooligan element but as Jon implies, you won't be there tomorrow. I may be. Call the police, inform BW, take pictures - stay inside the law for your own protection and mine.

Edited December 23, 2004 by Paul Evans

[dor]

West Midland News tonight; the Stagecoach Bus Service in Gloucester is considering ending a particular service to one area of the City because of continual assault on buses, drivers and passengers. Buses are being stoned and fired on with air rifles. On one occasion kids on bikes blocked the road so that the bus was even more vulnerable

 

So wouldn't it have been a good idea to have had a Home Sec in the last year or two who actually had the guts to do something about the hooligan crime that is ruining this country.

 

But no, let's keep the police off the streets and "control" (haha) crime with CCTV & speed cameras.

 

GRrrrrrrrrrrr

[Big COL]

Lets call a spade a spade. and thats what you would probably end up hitting them with if it was your wife, girlfriend, mother, being assaulted and appealing to you for help. I cannot believe that anyone faced with these circumstances would not treat like for like and retaliate. I sincerely hope that none of you will ever have to put it to the test, its one thing sitting on a keyboard insular from any real life situations supporting the softly softly approach, but when faced with these situations fear soon raises another emotion self survival, then the Adrenalin kicks in and rage quickly follows don't be ashamed of this, its natures way of self protection. How would you feel after the event where you have tried to negotiate with the assailants and failed and your partner has taken a beating, could you live with yourself? and you will never know what they realy think about you standing by with a non-aggressive approach

I am not suggesting that we degenerate down to the level of these yobs, obviously we are all decent living people what I am saying is that there is a limit that decent people can be taken and these yobs need to be shown just where that limit is, shouting, swearing, wont hurt anyone but show any form of violence to me my family or friends then be prepared to suffer the consequences.

This is the way that I feel I cant help this, in a previous post I described my late father as a hard yorkshire man. He rigidly instilled into me certain values to never start trouble, but never walk away if threatened, as you become a target for the bully's, and to help those that need and deserve help ie the innocent ones.

It has served me well during my 57 years, but what is now going on in this country seriously worries me I previously stated that I sincerely hope that no one has to be put to the test but the way things are going I believe that some of us will be we need the old British bull dog spirit to be reinstalled.

 

Sorry rant over.

[wynd lass(nb.Black Pearl)]

Im very sure things will turn round..............but it may be in a way we didn't imagine. As someone has already said, I too can forsee cctv everywhere, with specialist police crews ready to takle trouble spots as they appear.

 

Having spent 18 months using cctv and knowing its capabilities, it would make for a safer envoironment, and those little black domes you see in town centres and shops, have incredible magnification, let me assure you all, its surprising how far you can see easily whith them, and especialy if they are infared(for night vision).

 

Once again, people will say, "there goes our freedom!".......being watched all day, everywhere you go......well in town centres and shopping malls and supermarkets, its here already, and you are being watched constantly. In our store alone, we have about 40 cameras in and outside the store and a special one which runs in a covert lenght of horizontal drian pipe affair, which runs the lenght of the store, you drive it like a remote control car, you can literally make it do anything. Any yes we catch quite a lot of shoplifters with it too (but thats another story)

Edited December 23, 2004 by wynd lass(nb.Black Pearl)

[Big COL]

Wynd lass

 

Thats ok but they will just move further afield out of view, into the country and on the tow paths.

[timboharticus]

Post removed by Jon

Edited December 24, 2004 by Jon

[John Orentas]

Let us not carried away with all this, I know a crowd of teenagers can be quite intimidating and even threatning and the latest fashions for baseball caps and 'Hoodies' doesn't help. But more often than not they are just a group of young chaps feeling their way in the world like countless generations before them.

 

In my years of boating I have witnessed very few incidents of true vandalism or actual damage, my boat has never never been damaged in any way whilst out cruising or on it's home mooring.

 

I believe the 'Red Top' press have a lot to answer for in all this, they feed a constant diet of crime, lawlessness and violent behaviour. We should always be aware that such stories are given prominence because they are rare, not because they are commonplace.

Edited December 24, 2004 by John Orentas

[David Schweizer]

Thank God someone has had the courage to express the voice of reason on this subject. Like you John I have witnessed very little vandalism on the canals, and in forty years of boating I have never been attacked and have never had my boat damaged by "Vandals". In fact the only time my boat has been damaged was when the infamous Mr Finch broke into it whilst overwintering at Thrupp a few years ago.

 

I have spent most of my adult life working with young peole and as a consequence have probobly witmnessed far more anti-social behavior than most people, but I have never been attacked. I have always found that the best defence in a potentialy threatening situation is to make the first move with a friendly approach, think of something pleasant or amusing to say, even if they think you are a silly old fool, if they laugh they are less likely to be hostile towards you.

 

Young People in general have an undeservedly bad reputation, based upon a relatively small number of incidents which are widely publicised (particularly as you say John by the Tabloid press) In reality most Young People, like most Adults, carry on their lives without any significant impact upon those around them, although I will accept that young people are more boisterous, lively and energetic, But that's what makes them fun to be have around.