Diesel additives

[Bob18]

It is exactly because there are two major forms of "biodiesel" that I asked the question of Jerry.

 

Another thing that many people aren't aware of is that road fuel in the UK has to contain a certain percentage of biodiesel thanks to European legislation. I'm not sure if this has "filtered across" into the marine world yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if in some locations it has, given that our "red" diesel is just the same as "supermarket white", but with the dye and other tracers added to it at the point of tanker loading.

 

There is a huge amount of information available on the web about the physical and chemical properties of the various vegetable oils and their esters. One source is this site which gives much of the basic information on one very long page - just keep scrolling on down...........

 

 

 

 

(btw Palm "oil" melting point is about 30C which is not very useful as a liquid fuel, but its great for cooking with.)

[Albion]

having just read the post by Albion ,regarding the bit about RCR finding "waxing" on some boats ,I'm very suprised that they haven't picked up on the fact that this waxing could quite possibly be "high melting point esters" (HMPE),these HMPE are nasty little gremlins that form when biodiesel reach's a certain low tempreature ,as i posted earlier ALL matter used for making biodiesel has different levels of solidifying ,if you managed to collect some of this waxing in a jar ,then stood the jar in warm water ,the chances are the waxing would dissolve into fuel.

 

But the essence of my post was that if it has been noticed in boats why aren't the roads littered with broken down diesel cars if what you are saying is correct about poor quality control on fuels containing bio? It can't only be a boat fuel problem surely?

Roger

Edited November 19, 2011 by Albion

[JerryP]

It is exactly because there are two major forms of "biodiesel" that I asked the question of Jerry.

 

Another thing that many people aren't aware of is that road fuel in the UK has to contain a certain percentage of biodiesel thanks to European legislation. I'm not sure if this has "filtered across" into the marine world yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if in some locations it has, given that our "red" diesel is just the same as "supermarket white", but with the dye and other tracers added to it at the point of tanker loading.

 

There is a huge amount of information available on the web about the physical and chemical properties of the various vegetable oils and their esters. One source is this site which gives much of the basic information on one very long page - just keep scrolling on down...........

 

 

 

 

(btw Palm "oil" melting point is about 30C which is not very useful as a liquid fuel, but its great for cooking with.)

 

 

I have only ever known Biodiesel to be called either biodiesel or it's correct name of fatty acid methyl esters ,I'd be interested as would the users on the bio forum that i use to find another form of biodiesel.

 

btw, once palm oil has been converted to biodiesel/FAME , the solidifying point is reduced somewhat, and makes great summer bio,i know because that's what i use , but it's hopeless in winter.

[Tony Brooks]

It is exactly because there are two major forms of "biodiesel" that I asked the question of Jerry.

 

Another thing that many people aren't aware of is that road fuel in the UK has to contain a certain percentage of biodiesel thanks to European legislation. I'm not sure if this has "filtered across" into the marine world yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if in some locations it has, given that our "red" diesel is just the same as "supermarket white", but with the dye and other tracers added to it at the point of tanker loading.

 

SNIP

 

 

When the UK government said leisure users of red diesel for propulsion would have to be low sulphur the fuel companies seemed to decide their bottom line was more important than customers' interests so decided to simply dye the road diesel as you say. Since the the outcry (some of which I consider to be little short of hysterical) has caused some suppliers/refineries to supply dyed gas oil (no FAME) which is still perfectly legal. However others can not or will not. I think there is ample opportunity to cross contaminate gas oil with FAME that may have been in the tanker on its last delivery or in the depot's tanks and pipe work so whatever a supplier may claim my view is that it is prudent to consider all red diesel as containing a degree of FAME.

 

Any potential problems we may have are as nothing compared with the large seasonal machines in agriculture. It's worth seeking out the bulletin I think Claas put out about putting combined harvesters into store. However do not let it scare you, I am far from convinced the average boater needs to go to such lengths. For a start we are not, in this forum (Phylis excepted ) using common rail type diesel systems.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Tony Brooks

[JerryP]

But the essence of my post was that if it has been noticed in boats why aren't the roads littered with broken down diesel cars if what you are saying is correct about poor quality control on fuels containing bio? It can't only be a boat fuel problem surely?

Roger

 

One reason i can think of is that road vehicles use fuel at a far greater rate than boats so the "turnover" of fuel is faster, also vehicles don't sit for months stationary like some boats ?

 

ETA,another reason could be condensation getting into boat fuel tanks and amplyfiying the alleged biodiesel problem ?

Edited November 19, 2011 by JerryP

[Tony Brooks]

One reason i can think of is that road vehicles use fuel at a far greater rate than boats so the "turnover" of fuel is faster, also vehicles don't sit for months stationary like some boats ?

 

ETA,another reason could be condensation getting into boat fuel tanks and amplyfiying the alleged biodiesel problem ?

 

 

And leaking "flush" fuel filler caps, leaking rudder bearing hold down bolts and so on.

[Bob18]

Palm oil methyl ester has a melting point of about 10C, and is pretty viscous even at 20C, so still not really a viable liquid fuel in the UK without the sort supporting technology that Jerry talks about.

 

However Palm kernel oil methyl ester (which is different to its "palm oil methyl ester" cousin) has a melting point of -8C, which is similar to the waxing point of "normal" diesel.

One of the reasons for using the methyl ester of (almost) all vegetable oils is to reduce their melting point to an acceptable level. There is no simple rule that allows you to predict the melting point of the ester by looking at that of the feed oil, indeed there are batch to batch variations within the same "type" of vegetable oil, which is a pain because you have to do a lab batch production on each incoming batch to know how and what to blend it with to get a consistent final product.

[JerryP]

because you have to do a lab batch production on each incoming batch to know how and what to blend it with to get a consistent final product.

snip

 

Before i can make a batch of bio i have to do a titration, this is so i know how much sodium hydroxide (NaOH) to add per litre of oil, to little and it wont react , to much and all you'll produce is a substance that looks like jelly

[Bob18]

But the essence of my post was that if it has been noticed in boats why aren't the roads littered with broken down diesel cars if what you are saying is correct about poor quality control on fuels containing bio? It can't only be a boat fuel problem surely?

Roger

 

Several manufacturers have produced warnings in recent years following a number of incidents where cars, vans and lorries have had very expensive breakdowns following the use of both "FAME" and "SVO". Among them are JLR, PSA, Cummins, Iveco, GM (European division), VW. Some of these problems were known about, or uncovered during the engine test and development, in which case warnings were included in the owner documentation for the vehicle, which of course we all read and learn... The rest were found in service, and the manufacturers put out their warnings retrospectively.

 

The biggest problems were with the common rail injection engines, where the different viscosity and lubrication properties played havoc with the metering system, the different chemical properties of played havoc with materials within the high pressure pumps, precipitation of solids caused problems with blocking injectors, and so the list goes on.

 

It is interesting to note that the EU wanted a minimum of 25%(? might have been 33%) "vegetable derived" oils (either SVO or FAME) to be used in all none-air light fuel engines (road, rail, waterways), but the engine manufacturers and fleet operators, as a block, basically said "Up yours" because they knew such a move would cost huge amounts of money as there would be so many older (not old) engines that would fail due to the problems listed (and probably a few more besides).

[dor]

I've used Fuel Set, but I'm not convinced it is any better than putting Fairy liquid in the tank - they do seem remarkably similar.

 

Now then, I've got "diesel bug". I've had it for over 4 years, pretty much since the boat was new. I don't think it is easy to get rid of, in fact it's near impossible. But it doesn't cause me any problems because I manage it.

 

About every couple of months I suck out the bottom of the tank. I use a stick with a bit of plastic tubing attached and siphon it out into a jug held in the bilge below the level of the tank. I generally get about one or two litres of water out (except after filling at well known cheap supplier on the southern shroppie, after which I took out over six litres). Once the diesel starts coming out with the water I also get black blobs, which I presume is the bug. I keep going until the diesel is more or less continuous.

 

I get virtually no water out of my first filter/seperator, and I believe this is due to keeping the water out of the tank as much as possible. I think my feed pipe is about 4 - 5 cm clear of the bottom, and a couple of litres of water over the bottom of the tank would be only a few mm.

 

I think that, because of where we buy our diesel, how it is stored by those suppliers, how we store it in our boats and the rate at which we use it, a large majority of boaters will have some degree of life at the water/diesel interface. How much the addition of FAME to our diesel affects that i don't know, but in view of the fact I think it is inevitable that some bug will be present, it's down to maintenance to control it.

[Bob18]

Water absorption into straight FAME is somewhere between twice and ten fold that in "ordinary" diesel (depends on the feed SVO) the levels of water coming from that source are fairly low. But what happens in mixed systems (FAME in "ordinary") is a bit of a dark horse. Some "ordinary" fuels have quite large amounts of detergents, which normally do nothing much to the water content, but the presence of the long chain esters could well act as "absorption boosters" which increase the water absorption quite markedly.

There is another thing that happened more or less at the same time as the introduction of FAME, its the massive reduction in the permitted sulphur levels in fuels. Sulphur compounds are often very effective biocides, so the increased reports in the number of diesel bug attacks may actually be a result of something totally unconnected as there are uncorroborated reports of similar bug problems in gas-oil tanks in the absence of FAME...

 

Of course water in boat fuel has long been a problem, I recall in the mid 1980's draining about 20 gallons of heavily water contaminated diesel gel/sludge from a narrowboat tank that was only about ten years old. The engine went a whole lot better the following season, not as noisy, nor as prone to overheating.

[JerryP]

I don't get ANY water in my biodiesel ,never had.

 

eta,for fuel to absorb water , water has to be present in the first place

Edited November 19, 2011 by JerryP

[Bob18]

Oh, now there's a first - given the production process its all but impossible NOT to have a very small amount of water in your fuel, unless you've passed it through something like a 5A molecular sieve tower, and stored it immediately under dry nitrogen.

 

There is more than enough water in the atmosphere for water to be absorbed into fuel, you may not be able to see it with your eyes, but I can measure it.

[JerryP]

Oh, now there's a first - given the production process its all but impossible NOT to have a very small amount of water in your fuel, unless you've passed it through something like a 5A molecular sieve tower, and stored it immediately under dry nitrogen.

 

There is more than enough water in the atmosphere for water to be absorbed into fuel, you may not be able to see it with your eyes, but I can measure it.

 

you seem to have a lot of knowledge for someone who thinks there's two types of biodiesel

[Bob18]

I was producing methyl esters of vegetable oils (not to mention their ethyl and propyl esters...) a long time before they were fashionable as road fuels and an equally long time before they were called "FAME". I asked the question as I wanted others to be clear about what you were talking - there a lot out folks out there who believe that SVO/RVO/FAME are the same...

[onionbargee]

I have done some 'table-top' experiments with Fuel Set, Bio-Diesel and 'Ordinary' diesel.

 

First I mixed a 50/50 mix of bio and ordinary diesel in a jam jar shook it until they were mixed. Over the next couple few days the bio and ordinary separated out into two distinct layers.

 

I then added some Fuel Set to the jar in the correct ratio and shook it again to mix the contents. This time there was no separation and the mix has stayed mixed. This is now a couple of months ago and the contents are still mixed. As this happened after the Fuel Set was added I must assume that the Fuel Set has prevented the bio and ordinary diesel from separating out.

 

In a second jar at the same time, the same method as the above was used with the same results but at the time the Fuel Set was added some water was also added to simulate 'water in the tank' so to speak. The water disappeared over the next few days and again a couple of months later the mix is still crystal clear.

 

Given the above I have no problem with continuing to use Fuel Set with a diesel mix containing bio and am confident that it will take care of water in the fuel as it is supposed to do.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

 

No it didn't, it's still there, in emulsion, do you want that gravy going through your engine ? i wouldn't.

 

I recently pumped out a bilge after a fuel leak, the owner was using Fultron, and the fuel had mixed with so much water it was virtually non- flammable soup. and it never settled out, ever. So i don't beleive in anti water additives.

[ditchcrawler]

I have just spotted this in Towpath Talk http://fastexocet.co.uk/assets/products/exocetmarinefuelconditioner-info.pdf

[Tony Brooks]

I have just spotted this in Towpath Talk http://fastexocet.co.uk/assets/products/exocetmarinefuelconditioner-info.pdf

 

 

Seems a contradiction between the "separation of water" claims and the illustration though. I would also like to know what the catalyst is.

[Smelly]

Hi

 

This subject baffles me. Am I the only boater that in over 20 years of buying diesel from all over the country and never ever adding anything to the tank and never had a problem ?

Am I just amazingly lucky ? I cant see how i would be, or is it just a sensible precaution to use an additive even having never had any problems or is additive more necessary to hobby boaters who dont run engines nearly every day of the year so it stagnates in the tank ?

Confused

 

In 10 years of buying diesel from outlets stretching from the North West to the East Midlands and, indeed the Gloucester and Sharpness I have only had problems once; that was enough for me to buy a big bottle of a certain well known biocide so as to prevent problems again.

 

In those ten years I have lived aboard constnatly hence diesel has never stagnated and indeed when that "once" happened I had recently run out of fuel; but still I had problems and a dosing sorted it.

[Lewis 53]

Very interesting thread, but I still havn't a clue what I should be doing, not doing, or even considering doing. Could Tony or some one give me an idiots guide or point me where I can find out. Had the boat 9 years and never had a problem in this department so Im reluctant to fiddle for fear of preciptating a problem I might not have.

[JerryP]

Very interesting thread, but I still havn't a clue what I should be doing, not doing, or even considering doing. Could Tony or some one give me an idiots guide or point me where I can find out. Had the boat 9 years and never had a problem in this department so Im reluctant to fiddle for fear of preciptating a problem I might not have.

 

if it aint broke don't fix it ,would be my advise ,if you managed to get through last winter without any issues ,i would think you should be able to survive anything.

[onionbargee]

All additives excluding anti Diesel bug are snake oil, if you have water in the bottom of your tank you can drain it off if it's a problem, it won't mix with the fuel, and there will always be condensation in side your tank that falls to the bottom anyway, oil floats on water.

[Tony Brooks]

Very interesting thread, but I still havn't a clue what I should be doing, not doing, or even considering doing. Could Tony or some one give me an idiots guide or point me where I can find out. Had the boat 9 years and never had a problem in this department so Im reluctant to fiddle for fear of preciptating a problem I might not have.

 

 

 

As long as the level of any water in the bottom of your tank is low enough to stop it being drawn into the fuel system AND no bug is present you can simply do nothing although draining the water from the tank (say) once a year would be a good idea.

 

The question is "do you have bug" and I doubt anyone can answer that and even if you do not now how can you be sure a supplier will not supply fuel with bug in it. The problem is made worse by the bio-diesel content that much of our fuel now contains. Bio both is far more ready to absorb water than mineral diesel and more prone to feeing the bugs. Can you be sure that you are not buying fuel with some bio in it?

 

You will get early warning of bug if you do your own servicing so can inspect the fuel filter(s) and water traps to see what is in them. This will also tell you if water is being drawn into the fuel system. If you do not then you will not get any early warning of problems so one day the boat will loose power and eventually just stop.

 

Nobody can give a definitive answer for the questions above and in the light of some very odd fuel problems RCR have come across last year I now recommend following link to more words. This is precautionary and in many cases will be totally unnecessary but the procedure and additive should go a long way to ensuring you never have problems.

 

When RCR start giving free samples of additives to their members I would suggest it is time to take notice but I accept they could have been a marketing ploy on behalf of the additive supplier. However I do not think it was.

[Lewis 53]

Thanks Tony for taking the trouble to reply. I am not daft enough to believe it "wont happen to me". In fact that was the point of my post i.e. to find a procedure that I could carry out that would minimise the risk of avoidable "aggro". My engine is regularly serviced by a yard that I trust and Ive seen the filters and there is no sign of the bug. But that of course does not mean its not present. Ive never drained the water from the bottom of the tank as there is no drain point,and its pain to do it, but that is now my first port of call. I will follow your advice regarding draining and treatment from now on. As ever thanks for you advice.

Lewis.

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks Tony for taking the trouble to reply. I am not daft enough to believe it "wont happen to me". In fact that was the point of my post i.e. to find a procedure that I could carry out that would minimise the risk of avoidable "aggro". My engine is regularly serviced by a yard that I trust and Ive seen the filters and there is no sign of the bug. But that of course does not mean its not present. Ive never drained the water from the bottom of the tank as there is no drain point,and its pain to do it, but that is now my first port of call. I will follow your advice regarding draining and treatment from now on. As ever thanks for you advice.

Lewis.

 

If when you drain/suck out the water you find it is just rust coloured with no signs of slime and the diesel is a nice clear red colour then I doubt you have bug so it would probably be wasteful to use an additive. However any signs of darker slime or dark coloured diesel means you might have bug.

 

If the fuel at the bottom of the tank is cloudy then that is probably water emulsified into the fuel by either bio-diesel or an emulsifier that some suppliers add to their bulk tank. In that case I would use a de-emulsifier which probably means adding a biocide as well.