Confused: licences/insurance/BSS

[Julysea]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm new to the forum and new to boating. I have searched previous topics but not found an answer to my specific questions and I hope someone can clarify for me. We're expecting delivery of a sailaway lined in 6 weeks time. We'll be continuously cruising, at least to start with, as we can't as yet find a permanent home mooring. So my questions are:

 

1. On the BW site it says you can only buy a Gold Licence at the start of each year. As I understand it, if you buy a short-term Visitor's Licence to cover you in the interim period until 1st Jan, then that requires you to have a home mooring. Is there some way round this so we can be properly licenced?

 

2. Given that our boat will not be finished when we take delivery of it, it will not have a Boat Safety Certificate until we do finish it, so how do we then insure it before we get the Certificate? (I understand we have a short period of leeway to allow us to finish it before having to have the Certificate)

 

I'm sure these seem rather dim questions to many of you experienced boaters, but I'm learning, so please be gentle!

 

Liz

[bottle]

Liz.

 

welcome.

 

1. I assume you will be wanting to use other waters than just British Waterways, other wise you do not need a Gold licence. If you do need to use other waterways could you possibly stay on BW waters until January.

 

2. Boat should come with an RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) annexe III., that certificates the boat to its state of build. That should be enough to get it insured.

[koukouvagia]

2. Given that our boat will not be finished when we take delivery of it, it will not have a Boat Safety Certificate until we do finish it, so how do we then insure it before we get the Certificate? (I understand we have a short period of leeway to allow us to finish it before having to have the Certificate)

 

 

Welcome to the forum. You can get a BSS certificate for a boat at whatever stage of completion it's reached. If there's no gas, for example, this will simply be ignored when the certificate is issued.

[Julysea]

Thanks, that's really helpful. I'll look into keeping to BW waters until January. But now I'm confused again - is registration of a boat the same as having a license or is it a different requirement? I understand that requirements seem to be changing from Jan 2011, but despite extensive reading I have not found a clear explanation of the process for getting a new boat onto the water. Can anyone point me towards a website which sets out plainly the process - as far as I can understand so far we need to ensure we have an RCD annexe 3 when the boat is delivered, which will enable us to get insurance. Do we need to get it BSS certificated to the standard it is to start with or only after it's finished? When do we need a Declaration of Conformity? And is registration different from licensing? If you'll excuse the pun, I'm all at sea!

[bottle]

Liz

 

I take it you have been here: http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/home more specifically this page http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/license-it

 

and here: http://www.waterscape.com/ and this page http://www.waterscape.com/things-to-do/boating/licensing

 

Licensing is registration

 

The changes are not decided, the consultation is still open. (I believe, not checked). Worry about that when it happens.

 

RCD annexe III is Declaration of Conformity, to the state of build when delivered, if you have an RCD you do not need a BSS.

 

I think I am right but check, if the boat is not completed in the first year then a BSS (to state of build) is required to re-license.

 

A full RCD can be completed at the end of the build (when the boat is finished). You can do this yourself but paperwork is required or get a 'surveyor' .

 

It may be a good idea to have the surveyor 'onboard' from the build beginning as he can advise and make sure you comply to RCD

 

May I suggest you go to the horses mouth, British Waterways, they are very helpful, if you can get through.

[debbifiggy]

Liz

 

I take it you have been here: http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/home more specifically this page http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/license-it

 

and here: http://www.waterscape.com/ and this page http://www.waterscape.com/things-to-do/boating/licensing

 

Licensing is registration

 

The changes are not decided, the consultation is still open. (I believe, not checked). Worry about that when it happens.

 

RCD annexe III is Declaration of Conformity, to the state of build when delivered, if you have an RCD you do not need a BSS.

 

I think I am right but check, if the boat is not completed in the first year then a BSS (to state of build) is required to re-license.

 

A full RCD can be completed at the end of the build (when the boat is finished). You can do this yourself but paperwork is required or get a 'surveyor' .

 

It may be a good idea to have the surveyor 'onboard' from the build beginning as he can advise and make sure you comply to RCD

 

May I suggest you go to the horses mouth, British Waterways, they are very helpful, if you can get through.

 

Bottle's advice is sound. If you are continuously cruising on BW waters on a long term basis (i.e. more than a month) you cannot buy repeated short term licences as they will not be valid. I would suggest going for a full 12 month licence from the beginning of the month of your launch date and then converting it into a Gold licence from 1st January. Its's a simple enough process.

 

D

 

Edited for accuracy and grammer.

Edited October 21, 2011 by debbifiggy

[koukouvagia]

 

Edited for accuracy and grammer.

 

But not spelling .

[debbifiggy]

But not spelling .

 

Oops, I guess I owe you a beer. Well spotted.

 

D

[Tam & Di]

I would suggest going for a full 12 month licence from the beginning of the month of your launch date and then converting it into a Gold licence from 1st January. Its's a simple enough process.

 

D

 

Edited for accuracy and grammer.

 

 

And another. (but you can make mine a glass of good wine)

Edited October 21, 2011 by Tam & Di

[wrigglefingers]

Liz

 

I take it you have been here: http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/home more specifically this page http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/license-it

 

and here: http://www.waterscape.com/ and this page http://www.waterscape.com/things-to-do/boating/licensing

 

Licensing is registration

 

The changes are not decided, the consultation is still open. (I believe, not checked). Worry about that when it happens.

 

RCD annexe III is Declaration of Conformity, to the state of build when delivered, if you have an RCD you do not need a BSS.

 

I think I am right but check, if the boat is not completed in the first year then a BSS (to state of build) is required to re-license.

 

A full RCD can be completed at the end of the build (when the boat is finished). You can do this yourself but paperwork is required or get a 'surveyor' .

 

It may be a good idea to have the surveyor 'onboard' from the build beginning as he can advise and make sure you comply to RCD

 

May I suggest you go to the horses mouth, British Waterways, they are very helpful, if you can get through.

 

You are right, Bottle. Cobbett was licensed under an Annexe IIIa last year but I had to get a BSS done to stage of partial completion earlier this year. In fact, if you do not sell your boat for five years from the issue of the Annexe IIIa you do not need an RCD but, and it's a big, big but, you will be committing a Trading Standards offence if you do sell before the five years is up and you cannot get an RCD in retrospect. As Cobbett isn't quite finished I am looking to complete her in next few months and then compile the RCD mostly by myself, but with some surveyor help over the legal bits - Paul Smith has advised on her build from the get-go so I'm reasonably confident that I'm there or thereabout. Shouldn't cost a fortune but I will need to do some more saving for it ... groan ...

[luctor et emergo]

You are right, Bottle. Cobbett was licensed under an Annexe IIIa last year but I had to get a BSS done to stage of partial completion earlier this year. In fact, if you do not sell your boat for five years from the issue of the Annexe IIIa you do not need an RCD but, and it's a big, big but, you will be committing a Trading Standards offence if you do sell before the five years is up and you cannot get an RCD in retrospect. As Cobbett isn't quite finished I am looking to complete her in next few months and then compile the RCD mostly by myself, but with some surveyor help over the legal bits - Paul Smith has advised on her build from the get-go so I'm reasonably confident that I'm there or thereabout. Shouldn't cost a fortune but I will need to do some more saving for it ... groan ...

 

do you need all this palaver just to get insured, or in case one wanted to sell the boat? Seems from your post that you need to comply, even if you have no intention to sell...

[bottle]

Simple answer is yes.

 

The boat must comply to standards, if not then it will not be insurable.

 

If not insured it cannot be licensed.

 

Although there may be no intention to sell, things can change in the five years after completion, illness, death or a load of other things, life and circumstances cannot be predicted.

Edited October 22, 2011 by bottle

[blackrose]

It was a while ago now, but I think the RCD Annexe 3 Declaration of Conformity (for a partly completed craft) that came with my sailaway, covered me for a full year, so I didn't need a boat safetly certificate for that period (for insurance purposes or otherwise).

 

I completed my boat to the BSS not RCD, but as others have said, that meant I had to keep it for 5 years. It's a ruling designed to prevent professional builders skirting around full completion of the boat to RCD standards. Self-fitters are advised to fit out to RCD standards for the reasons Bottle has mentioned, but this involves some paperwork (apparently you have to construct some sort of technical manual for your boat), and the standards themselves aren't quite as straightforward as BSS standards (if that's possible?) Personally as a non-professional, I found fitting out my boat difficult enough as it was without the additional paperwork & bureaucracy. Basically I couldn't be arsed with it - life is too short.

 

Good luck fitting out your boat while continuously cruising (and living aboard?) - starting in the middle of winter!

 

Edit: If you decide to fit-out your boat to BSS standards you will need this: http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/site/2ndedBSSEssentialGuide_212.asp

 

Perhaps someone else who knows the RCD fit-out route can advise on where to get some sort of guidance?

Edited October 22, 2011 by blackrose

[wrigglefingers]

Yes, exactly so. I was without the cover of the Annexe or the BSC as I wanted to get some gas work completed so it could be completed and mix-up of dates resulted in a gap, so for a few days I was uninsured.

[ditchcrawler]

Simple answer is yes.

 

The boat must comply to standards, if not then it will not be insurable.

 

If not insured it cannot be licensed.

 

Although there may be no intention to sell, things can change in the five years after completion, illness, death or a load of other things, life and circumstances cannot be predicted.

I insured my boat from the moment I bought it and didn't get a BSS until 5 years later when I licensed it. There are still waterways that don't require BSS and you can still insure your boat.

[Chertsey]

I insured my boat from the moment I bought it and didn't get a BSS until 5 years later when I licensed it. There are still waterways that don't require BSS and you can still insure your boat.

Good point. My insurance says nothing about BSS either.

[ChrisPy]

I have solicited several insurance proposals, and have never been asked about BSS or RCD.

bear in mind that a huge proportion of boats are coastal where no specific regulations apply. My brother recently bought an expensive classic Clyde yacht from 1950s, where the gas bottle was sitting in a bucket in a stern locker despite an earlier survey report advising the owner to make a proper installation.

 

RCD compliance is relatively easy to achieve, providing that you have a source of the ISO standards, and that you work with the intention to comply from the start.

Edited October 22, 2011 by ChrisPy

[bottle]

Although not asked for or mentioned, I. bet there is something in the small print.:-)

[Chertsey]

Although not asked for or mentioned, I. bet there is something in the small print.:-)

No, I have read the small print. Mind you, I have opted for a very simple policy.

But it can't be both 'not mentioned' and 'in the small print' anyway.

[wrigglefingers]

I dunno about all this - I had to send a copy my Annexe IIIa to Mardon and they want to see my BSC as a condition of insuring Cobbett. The quite large print states clearly that I should have the relevant safety and/or compliance documentation up to date and available for inspection.

[bottle]

No, I have read the small print. Mind you, I have opted for a very simple policy.

But it can't be both 'not mentioned' and 'in the small print' anyway.

 

When i said "not mentioned" I meant exactly that, RCD and/or BSS are not mentioned but as Wrigglefingers says "relevant safety and/or compliance documentation up to date".

 

If you or anyone else is happy with their policy so be it.

[Chertsey]

When i said "not mentioned" I meant exactly that, RCD and/or BSS are not mentioned but as Wrigglefingers says "relevant safety and/or compliance documentation up to date".

 

If you or anyone else is happy with their policy so be it.

I guess it's a question of choosing the right policy, as often discussed before. I am indeed very happy with mine.

[Bob18]

And don't forget that insurance companies will always be looking for a way to wriggle out of making a payment, so if the boat is "under construction" make sure you keep them appraised of what the state of play is. Confirm with them, in writing, what they understand by any clause in the Ts&Cs you don't understand, for example will they cover materials that have been delivered to the boat but not installed? (you may have to notify them, but a quick email to say "I've just had 20 sheets of 18mm ply for the floor delivered, it will be fitted over the next month" may stop an argument with them down the line after some nice person decides to "borrow" a dozen to build his wayside shack...

[Leni]

Hi, I'm new here, so excuse me if I'm sticking my nose in to someone else's topic, but I have some similar (and some rather different! ;-D ) problems.

 

I've bought a boat which has been out of the water for 7 years, so if it had a BSS certificate and a licence once, they've long ago expired. I have managed to get insurance for the boat, but currently my son and a mate are working on it to get it fixed up to comply with the BSS so that I can get the certificate, then the licence, then a mooring. So yes, it's possible to insure a boat without the BSS etc.

 

However, I'm wondering what exactly is the legal position re a boat that has had a licence in the past, but it expired long ago? Everyone talks about getting a new licence before the old one expires, but what about getting a licence after a long gap? My son (who is working on the boat at present) recently was spoken to by a BW patrol office about the lack of a licence and was given a card with contact details, but he wasn't sure exactly what he was supposed to do about it.

 

Leni :-)

[bottle]

Welcome to the forum

 

If the boat is out of the water and not on BW land, it does not need a licence.