Barby Moorings and the Trade Description Act!!!!??

[DaveG]

Allan - I'm not sure how interested BWML would be . As Bob18 says, you could never describe Barby as a going concern and, with the best will in the world, there is still massive investment required to make it properly useable. I doubt they are even a third of the way through. There is no connection to the National Grid, which runs about a mile away, but the owner is avoiding this question by saying he is now going to build a wind farm and a solar farm to make the site self sufficient. Apart from the fact there is no permission for this, the cost would be considerable. The current "hardware" construction cost of turbines works out around £3,000 per kilowatt (source Windindustry). Assuming 108 boats, shops, bar/restaurant plus other electrically driven equipment, a conservative estimate would be a required generating capacity of 350kw, or just over £1,000,000 in set-up and installation cost. Add to that the construction still required for all the advertised buildings and facilities, I would guess at least another £200,000 of expenditure is required there too. Just to equip a restaurant with conforming equipment and facilities is around £50,000 on top of the bricks and mortar construction cost. This is where you begin to understand the mindset of the owner who, having completely stalled on the construction and clearly in financial hardship, is now telling potential clients he is building a wind farm and everything else will be up and running before Christmas!! Cruel as it may sound, this is all total nonsense and fairy tale.

 

Whilst it would be great if another buyer could be found, I'm not sure Barby is in a fit enough state to be commercially attractive. I think BW are more drawn to up-and-running businesses. You really have to see the place to understand the enormous amount of work still to be done. Let's not forget that this is area is already intensely served by marinas - I think there are already 11 or 12 within 10 miles. Of course, any incoming buyer is under no obligation to take on existing moorers or honour the deposits they have already paid.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Allan - I'm not sure how interested BWML would be . As Bob18 says, you could never describe Barby as a going concern and, with the best will in the world, there is still massive investment required to make it properly useable. I doubt they are even a third of the way through. There is no connection to the National Grid, which runs about a mile away, but the owner is avoiding this question by saying he is now going to build a wind farm and a solar farm to make the site self sufficient. Apart from the fact there is no permission for this, the cost would be considerable. The current "hardware" construction cost of turbines works out around £3,000 per kilowatt (source Windindustry). Assuming 108 boats, shops, bar/restaurant plus other electrically driven equipment, a conservative estimate would be a required generating capacity of 350kw, or just over £1,000,000 in set-up and installation cost. Add to that the construction still required for all the advertised buildings and facilities, I would guess at least another £200,000 of expenditure is required there too. Just to equip a restaurant with conforming equipment and facilities is around £50,000 on top of the bricks and mortar construction cost. This is where you begin to understand the mindset of the owner who, having completely stalled on the construction and clearly in financial hardship, is now telling potential clients he is building a wind farm and everything else will be up and running before Christmas!! Cruel as it may sound, this is all total nonsense and fairy tale.

 

Whilst it would be great if another buyer could be found, I'm not sure Barby is in a fit enough state to be commercially attractive. I think BW are more drawn to up-and-running businesses. You really have to see the place to understand the enormous amount of work still to be done. Let's not forget that this is area is already intensely served by marinas - I think there are already 11 or 12 within 10 miles. Of course, any incoming buyer is under no obligation to take on existing moorers or honour the deposits they have already paid.

 

I don't think BW would now take on the business from the existing owners due to too much debt. Much better to wait and buy from RBS or the receiver at market value. This would be very low due the outlay required to finish the job.

[Bob18]

I'm not sure that anyone would want to take on the debt of a failing venture, but rather that the current owner would clear as much as possible of the debt from the proceeds of the sale. The business then starts with a "clean" balance sheet and a chance to break even in a reasonable timescale.

All of which is bad news for those that have parted with their hard earned cash in the from of deposits, or the provision of goods and services that have still to be paid for.

[sebrof]

I don't think BW would now take on the business from the existing owners due to too much debt. Much better to wait and buy from RBS or the receiver at market value. This would be very low due the outlay required to finish the job.

 

Quite so. Nobody is going to buy the company on a going-concern basis because clearly it is going nowhere.

 

It seems extraordinary that the owners would have embarked on such a project without having enough cash, or promises of cash. The bank would have wanted to see very solid projections before it handed over any money. It is therefore my belief that one of their sources of funding has dropped out. The website talks of family investors and bank finance.

 

It might be the family, but in my view it is not at all improbable that it is the bank that has pulled out. The conditions of bank financing give banks enormous latitude to duck out of their obligations, and I suspect that this is what has happened this time.

 

In the last recession a friend of mine was involved in a debt-factoring company, which was solvent and profitable. One day, without any warning, the bank rang to say that they were getting out of that sector because they deemed it too risky. The company went bust. I suspect that funding marinas has now been deemed too risky. The old adage that a bank will only lend money to those who don't need it rings very true in troubled times.

 

In this instance, there will be little owed to HMRC for VAT or PAYE or Corporation Tax because Barby has made few sales, employed few people, and made little profit. The bank will be far and away the biggest creditor, and they no doubt reckon that by selling the land they will get back much of what is owed.

 

There has been a lot of talk here about the way in which companies seem to be able to rise like a phoenix from the ashes. Of course, that is not true. The original company has gone, and a new one, owned very often by the same people, has acquired the business. What many people don't realise is that it is more risky to lend to a company than to an individual. The word "Limited" means that the liability of the owners is limited to the amount they originally invested.

 

A private individual, however, can be taken for everything he owns, including his house, his silver Range Rover, and the contents of his bank account. This is worth remembering when you place a deposit with a small company that doesn't appear to be making any money.

 

It is also worth remembering that without limited liability, no bank would ever lend to a company, and investors would not buy shares in companies they did not themselves control. This means that the enormous increase in prosperity that we have seen in the world since limited liability companies were invented in 1855 would not have happened. Many people, myself included, think that disasters like this are a price worth paying, though of course it is sad for those involved.

 

Don't get me onto the shenanigans that occurred recently in the banks, but I regard them as a failure of governance, responsibility, and integrity, rather than a failure of principle. If I were the banking regulator, certain individuals would now be incapable of breeding.

Edited October 16, 2011 by sebrof

[carlt]

In the last recession a friend of mine was involved in a debt-factoring company, which was solvent and profitable. One day, without any warning, the bank rang to say that they were getting out of that sector because they deemed it too risky. The company went bust.

Good!

 

Always nice to hear about the bottom feeders getting some of their own, for a change.

 

I wonder how he felt when he started receiving the same letters he had been sending out.

 

made my day...have a greenie.

[sharpness]

Good!

 

Always nice to hear about the bottom feeders getting some of their own, for a change.

 

I wonder how he felt when he started receiving the same letters he had been sending out.

 

made my day...have a greenie.

 

He said debt factoring, not debt collecting, is your understanding of factoring correct?

 

Steve

[carlt]

He said debt factoring, not debt collecting, is your understanding of factoring correct?

 

Steve

Yes I understand debt factoring perfectly, thank you.

[ditchcrawler]

Yes I understand debt factoring perfectly, thank you.

Is that where company A who is owed lots of money by lots of people sell the whole lot to company B for an amount less than the total debts and the company B tries to collect as much as possible from all those that owe money hopefully to make a profit?

[sharpness]

Yes I understand debt factoring perfectly, thank you.

Obviously a different understanding to mine then which would not warrant your comments.

Never mind.

 

Steve

[carlt]

Is that where company A who is owed lots of money by lots of people sell the whole lot to company B for an amount less than the total debts and the company B tries to collect as much as possible from all those that owe money hopefully to make a profit?

Yes but the ramifications of such transactions are somewhat more complex.

 

Obviously a different understanding to mine then which would not warrant your comments.

Evidently.

[ditchcrawler]

Yes but the ramifications of such transactions are somewhat more complex.

 

 

Evidently.

Thanks

[sharpness]

Is that where company A who is owed lots of money by lots of people sell the whole lot to company B for an amount less than the total debts and the company B tries to collect as much as possible from all those that owe money hopefully to make a profit?

That is one version of debt factoring, other versions are available. Carl & I obviously have different experiences.

 

Steve

[jelunga]

I used to work for a well respected (lol) finance co. Invoice factoring is where a companies invoices to customers are sold to the finace coy at face value minus x%. The finance coy then has to collect the money from the original co's customer. Mind you most finance co will only accept the invoices made out to good credit risks. Any dodgy customers invoices were rejected.

[grey tug]

Can anyone advise -

Has there been any work done in last week, or is it just as it was with no pontoons, facilities etc

 

Many thanks

[nigel carton]

I passed there on Friday and it looked very un finished

[Humphrey]

Just passed there and still no pontoons or facilities. Looks at a complete standstill. According to one boater there the only facilities at the moment are water to some bankside moorings and the taps are in little boxes and you need to be double jointed to turn it on and off. Electric, apparently is part-time, off 9ish at night - on 9ish in the morning. Obviously with the electrics running on a generator, the electrics in the mornings are not up to speed because of the demand at that time of day from the dozen or so boaters connected to it. Rest of marina still looks like a builders yard. Also have heard that the electric will be metered at 28p per unit. After reading all these threads I do feel sorry for those who have committed themselves to that marina.

 

Can anyone advise -

Has there been any work done in last week, or is it just as it was with no pontoons, facilities etc

 

Many thanks

[ditchcrawler]

Just passed there and still no pontoons or facilities. Looks at a complete standstill. According to one boater there the only facilities at the moment are water to some bankside moorings and the taps are in little boxes and you need to be double jointed to turn it on and off. Electric, apparently is part-time, off 9ish at night - on 9ish in the morning. Obviously with the electrics running on a generator, the electrics in the mornings are not up to speed because of the demand at that time of day from the dozen or so boaters connected to it. Rest of marina still looks like a builders yard. Also have heard that the electric will be metered at 28p per unit. After reading all these threads I do feel sorry for those who have committed themselves to that marina.

I suppose if you are generating the electricity your self you can sell it for what you want.

[Bob18]

ASA are going to be talking to the advertiser about the ads that have been placed over the last few months that have suggested that the marina is fully up and running...

[DaveG]

I believe anyone now trying to cancel their reservation and get their deposit back is being held to a "13 week notice" rule in the "regulations", so as well as not getting your money back you get a further invoice on top of the £400 deposit you have already paid to take you up to 13 weeks. The cheek of this man knows no bounds.

 

And this has also appeared in the "regulations":

 

"4. In the event of any failed payment transaction by an Owner to the Company, a fee of £50 will be levied for each instance"

 

I wonder if he will be sending i love my narrowboat £50 compensation for the cheque he gave her which then bounced??

 

Sebrof - whilst I understand your defence of the laws and principles of limited companies, this (and the other threads on this forum) has nothing to do with someone acting or running their business lawfully or ethically- this is all about dishonesty and fraud which, I believe, cannot be justified under any circumstances. Where individuals deliberately hide behind the law and continue to profit by doing so they should not be protected.

[DaveG]

On the subject of electrical supply, this from the CAB and Ofgem:

 

All electricity suppliers must have a licence from the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets (Ofgem). One of the licence conditions is that an electricity supplier must produce codes of practice on:-

 

procedures for complaints

payment of bills, arrangements for dealing with arrears and prepayment meters

site access procedures

energy efficiency advice

services for older, disabled and chronically sick people.

 

Pardon my scpeticism, but I doubt McMaster has such a licence and I doubt his installations would meet any legislative safety regulations.

[Bob18]

Allegedly the pontoons will be arriving in the next week or so, and they should only take a matter of days/weeks to get up and running. Now given the amount of work being done as I passed by today (hint - think of the shape of a Polo mint) and extrapolate to completion date.

[DaveG]

Allegedly the pontoons will be arriving in the next week or so, and they should only take a matter of days/weeks to get up and running. Now given the amount of work being done as I passed by today (hint - think of the shape of a Polo mint) and extrapolate to completion date.

Yes, I'm sure...just as they were "arriving next week" in April, June and August!! Last time I was there in September Mr McMasters teenaged son was trying to make them up on the bank.

[sebrof]

Good!

 

Always nice to hear about the bottom feeders getting some of their own, for a change.

 

I wonder how he felt when he started receiving the same letters he had been sending out.

 

made my day...have a greenie.

 

I thought I was on your kill-file.

 

You obviously know nothing about debt-factoring. It's a way for small businesses to raise money without going to their bank. The debt-factor takes over their business debts and pays the business, less a fee.

 

It's legal and ethical, and a useful resource for small businesses. You are probably thinking of bailiffs or debt collectors. Or not thinking at all.

[journeyperson]

I thought I was on your kill-file.

 

You obviously know nothing about debt-factoring. It's a way for small businesses to raise money without going to their bank. The debt-factor takes over their business debts and pays the business, less a fee.

 

It's legal and ethical, and a useful resource for small businesses. You are probably thinking of bailiffs or debt collectors. Or not thinking at all.

 

I used to have problems with a debt factoring company. The company were used by a building contract to chase his outstanding invoices. We used to get final notices from the factors before the contractor had even started the work and the local authority I was working for weren't even the client. They just couldn't get their heads round who they should be chasing and when. They may be legal but I don't think they are particularly ethical.

Edited October 17, 2011 by journeyperson

[sebrof]

I used to have problems with a debt factoring company. The company were used by a building contract to chase his outstanding invoices. We used to get final notices from the factors before the contractor had even started the work and the local authority I was working for weren't even the client. They just couldn't get their heads round who they should be chasing and when. They may be legal but I don't think they are particularly ethical.

 

Debt-factoring companies work by buying invoiced debt. If they were chasing you early, it was because the builder had invoiced early. There is no point in a factor wasting his time on debts that aren't due. And if they hadn't been invoiced, the factor wouldn't know what to collect.

 

Blame the right party!