saturn

[Hairy-Neil]

 

 

As private individuals we have financial and time constraints which force us to take actions which may annoy some people (ourselves included) But we don't make big claims, We don't have mission statements and we don't have a responsibility to donors.

 

As I understand it the Monarch was shortened, narrowed and the draught reduced to make it a "go anywhere on the system" type boat. Why start with a historic boat if you want something to fit that criteria? It beats me. It wasn't very long before the butchers sold on their ideal boat, when reality hit home I guess.

Edited April 23, 2006 by Hairy-Neil

[carlt]

As I understand it the Monarch was shortened, narrowed and the draught reduced to make it a "go anywhere on the system" type boat. Why start with a historic boat if you want something to fit that criteria? It beats me. It wasn't very long before the butchers sold on their ideal boat, when reality hit home I guess.

 

I think you need a bit more than 'as I understand it' before you start insulting people for what they choose to do with their property. Have you got a boat? You don't mention it in your profile. I have opinions about the huge number of new shells being squeezed onto the system, but I would never insult anyone for choosing to buy a new boat. If you want to preserve these boats in their original form then lobby your mp about a listing system for historic vessels. Campaign for grants for private owners to restore their boats authentically. Complain to BW about the change of canal width from 7' to 6'10" and ask them to dredge the cut so deep draughted workboats can actually travel the system. I have no intention of dictating to you what you do with your boat, if you have one, nor will I insult you if I don't like your boat. I find your comments offensive though and I'm sure the people who kept Monarch canalworthy while noone else cared about workboats would be offended also.

[Hairy-Neil]

I think you need a bit more than 'as I understand it' before you start insulting people for what they choose to do with their property. Have you got a boat?

 

So I need to own a boat to hold an opinion do I? I think you need to get a life.

 

The Monarch is no more the historic ex FMC Monarch than the Raymond you appear to so despise. Its merely a caricature, a grotesque imitation or misrepresentation constructed with some of the original components. I think the people who kept Monarch canalworthy while noone else cared about workboats would likely as not be dismayed with her current guise. In vehicular terms she would be a street rod.

 

It has never carried a load, nor has an old boatman ever slept in its twee back cabin. In the terms of the antiques trade it has no provenence. Though also lacking in provenence, at least Saturn and Gifford are a reasonably accurate facsimile of that they purport to be.

 

President - not even the original boat at all. Just the best josher hull Caggy had when the preservationists came calling.

 

 

And even if it was, Ian Kemp threw 50% of the hull away for the recent refurbishment. Admirable restoration work though.

 

Adamant - Chopped down joey, butty to steam power conversion, Bizarre cabin conversion.

 

Laplander - Steam powered icebreaker? Surely it will just roll over when you start to rock it in ice?

 

The Adamant is not a chopped down joey, I believe it to actually incorporate parts of two joey boats in the front half of its hull.

 

The bows are a stern end cut off and discarded when a joey was motorised and the riveted part of the main hull is a section from one that was shortened. Both parts were rescued from the scrap pile. The rest of the hull was new build. Unless its changed in recent years (and its owner did have plans to improve it) its handling is bizarre too. And yes, I know because I have steered it

 

Couldn't agree more on the Laplander but, like that of the Adamant, its owner loves it.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Hairy-Neil

[DHutch]

I know because I have steered it

- Couldn't agree more on the Laplander but, like that of the Adamant, its owner loves it.

I guess you know phillip (and sean?) quite well then.

 

Weather you agree with whats been done to there boats or not, there great people, and love there boats very much. As did roger.

 

This is one of the addvantages of having a new steam boat like ours, non of the ball-ache of caring induviduals, many of which dont have a clue what there talking about or what going on. (which was somthing very clear with the monach goings on)

- We can make alterations/modifcations/improvements as/when we like, without people tell us we cant.

- And we still get loads of people going "whooo, theres a love old lady" and other such reduculess things they say.

(which just proves a lot of the dont know there arse from the elbow, who ever heard of such rubbish, its even got 1991 stamped on the bloody cyclinder 'ed!)

 

 

 

Daniel

[Hairy-Neil]

I guess you know phillip (and sean?) quite well then.

Daniel

 

Was a brief encounter some years ago at one of the Birmingham historic boat gatherings. I had taken Clover & Fazely up from Stoke Bruerne with David Blagrove. Davd took to the tiller for the boat parades but I discovered that Phillip was crewless so offered my services. Was somewhat underpowered and could have done with a larger rudder blade. Seem to recall it having excesssive pitch on the prop too which meant it would turn to the right more readily than to the left..........was rather like a floating brick.

Edited April 27, 2006 by Hairy-Neil

[carlt]

So I need to own a boat to hold an opinion do I? I think you need to get a life.

 

The Monarch is no more the historic ex FMC Monarch than the Raymond you appear to so despise.

 

First. I wasn't suggesting that you need a boat to have an opinion. I was stating that if you did I would not trade insults with you no matter what boat you own or what you chose to do with it. Your second sentence proves you can't raise yourself above insults. I love my life thank you and live it without passing judgement on others.

 

You also misinterpret my views on Raymond. I believe she is a poorly executed rebuild, poorly maintained and at the current rate of deterioration, going to be not fit to drag to rallies within a few years. Like most of the restored boats out there, I'm not really bothered either way. What I dislike (despise is a bit too strong a word used by those with a bit more vitriol than I can muster) are the claims made by the the Raymond trust designed to mislead the layman; displaying banners claiming Raymond as a restoration, claiming accuracy of build when even the restorer disputes this. Raymond was a huge opportunity wasted.

 

I would also point out that my own boat is included in my list of boats open to criticism, not insult.

 

The difference between Raymond and Monarch (or any trust/museum boat and any privately owned boat) is that Raymond is owned by a charitable trust which has a responsibility to everyone who has ever chucked spare change into its bucket. They make claims about the boat, and the aims of the trust, which should be fulfilled, but haven't been. Monarch is just another privately owned lump of metal which is answerable to no'one.

 

I may agree with you about what should happen to historic boats. Lucy would make a lovely 50 foot tug. A motor back end is far easier a job than rebuilding a butty's and her front and middle are pretty good (considering). But I would not do it to her and, if I can find someone to take her on, would expect assurances that it won't happen at anytime. But if I can't find anyone than, ultimately, my family and my life (such as it is) will come first and she will be left in BW's less than capable hands. And if that is what happens then you will be free to insult me and I will be free to climb up to my moral high ground and sneer down at you.

 

Regarding the other boats I think Laplander is a lovely boat with loads of character and makes the cut a more cheerful place. Adamant is not my cup of tea but the girlfriend loves it. The others are just museum boats either well or badly managed.

[Hairy-Neil]

At what point does critisism become an insult? To my wife and several other women I deal with it would seem to be one and the same ...... Duck the flack........

 

Criticism, noun: disapproval expressed by pointing out faults or shortcomings;

 

If you search criticize in a thesaurus you'll find insult is a synonym.

[DHutch]

Was somewhat underpowered and could have done with a larger rudder blade. Seem to recall it having excesssive pitch on the prop too which meant it would turn to the right more readily than to the left..........was rather like a floating brick.

Sounds supprising familur....

 

We have a 26*32" prop spining at aroun 150/200rpm, about 2inchs on the bottom, and a rudder far more suited to a 9ton hireboat with a diesal.

- And as you say, stears nicely round to the left, but awfull if you want to got right!

 

And then on top of that emilyanne is wheel steering, which makes it all more... fun?

 

 

 

Daniel

[carlt]

At what point does critisism become an insult? To my wife and several other women I deal with it would seem to be one and the same ...... Duck the flack........

 

Criticism, noun: disapproval expressed by pointing out faults or shortcomings;

 

If you search criticize in a thesaurus you'll find insult is a synonym.

 

The fact that you lack the sensitivity and subtelty to recognise the difference is no surprise to me.

 

"I believe you are wrong to alter your boat's appearance without my approval" = criticism

 

"you're a butcher" = insult.

 

Clear enough or would you like me to write more slowly, in crayon? = insult.

 

Maybe you should go and find the semantics forum.

 

You're obviously just another workboat groupie who is quick enough to jump on the rivet-counters bandwagon but hasn't got the stones to commit themselves to actually owning and saving one themselves. = insult.

 

Oh and if the women in your life think what you see as criticism is actually insulting, you ought to take a good look at how you treat the opposite sex.= observation

 

Anyone wanna talk boats?

[Hairy-Neil]

The fact that you lack the sensitivity and subtelty to recognise the difference is no surprise to me.

 

 

Semantics? You can't polish a turd......

[DHutch]

Come on, hangbags at fifty passes please!!

[carlt]

The voice of reason, I shall shut up. Although I was in the Natural History museum gift shop many years ago and saw dinosaur poo, polished, mounted and being sold as jewellery.

 

Did you know the S.E.Barlow motor Hood has a jacuzzi?

[Hairy-Neil]

Did you know the S.E.Barlow motor Hood has a jacuzzi?

 

A jacuzzi is removable. Provenance takes a little more restoring.

[carlt]

You're absolutely right, provenance,like a sense of humour, once removed can never be restored.

[Timleech]

This thread died before I joined here, a reference to it by Carlt has brought it to my attention & I feel qualified to make a couple of comments.

 

 

Saturn was built by Malcolm Webster using the same materials and methods as on the original . The only exception being , as I understand it , the use of galvanized nails and spikes instead of plain ones in the interests of longevity . The society responsible chose effectively to build a new boat using the iron work and

100% accurate measurements and ( wherever possible ) methods of a real one , because there were no survivors capable of being restored

 

Actually she was originally built using galvanised spikes and, rather unusually, galvanised bolts for knee fastenings.

My one quibble is that Malcolm insisted on fitting 3" thick bottom boards, when she originally had only 2" boards.

Saturn worked as a Hotel Boat for the best part of thirty years, and during that time I and others replaced virtually all of the original timber with the exception AFAIR of the bottom half of the stem post, some odd bits of bottom strake and maybe one or two bottom boards. In some cases we were replacing the work of a 'real' shipwright done during her earlier hotel boat years, partly because he was determined to work alone (in case anyone learned his secrets!) and could only therefore manage short lengths of planking. This work was all done with the constraint of having to be refitted and ready for the following season, often working within the confined spaces of the passenger cabins. During one winter we replanked almost a complete side along with the stern post. Another time we replaced almost the entire bottom and much of the keelson. The priority was always to get the job done as well as we could in the time available but she was a working vessel with history rather than an historical artefact.

To me. she now represents a fine replica and it does annoy me when it's referred to as a 'restoration'. I have some sympathy with Carl's view that she would have been a good candidate for 'rolling restoration', I did have some affection for the old girl after my years of involvement but that has gone completely now.

 

Tim

[carlt]

Blimey Neil, we did have words back then didn't we?

[Dawnie]

Feel a bit deja vu. Just watched Waterworld showing Shroppie Fly, Saturn thought I would look it up and found Carlt's first Post too!

Edited July 19, 2010 by Dawnie

[churchward]

Dan is absolutely correct, The GWR regularly swapped bits from other Locos, in fact their whole maintenance practice was based upon major components being interchangeable. They even changed complete Locos, there is a story ( which I assume is true) that on one occassion when the Royal Train was called for to take King George V to Windsor, the loco of the same name was not available, being at Swindon undergoing repairs, so another Loco from the same class was rostered and the plates and famous Brass Bell were transferred onto the substitute Loco. There is no record as to whether the King noticed

Well nearly right. The identity of Windsor Castle was swapped for another (Bristol Castle) for the funeral of the King. This loco was habitually used for the Royal train and was once driven by the King from Swindon Works to the Station on a Royal Visit. The snag was the sudden death of the King in 1952 was at the very time that Windsor Castle was in the works for major overhaul and so was in bits.

 

The GWR didn't go down the route of standardisation of parts for nothing. It made the overhaul of locos as the works much simpler and faster. When the loco came to the point of needing a complete rebuild. The loco would be stripped to its component parts. Anything could would be kept anything needing repair or machining was most likely put aside and new parts fitted. Boilers would find themselves moving from loco to loco as any other component. Cabs frames and some main castings would stay with the loco.

 

Oh yes nearly forgot to be on topic!

 

I don't care that the Saturn may be 99% new I am just glad to be able to see such a thing rather than not. Just as I will be happy to see what comes out of the project with Butty Lucy.

 

Is this a competition for who can revive the oldest Thread on the forum?

[djgoode1980]

what are some of you on yes some restrations are not to the exact lines and could of been done better but how much of the boat has to be there and from when if its from new hell lets just cut them all up as they will all be classed as replicas. Trusts and sociertys all bend the truth im a member of friends of president and I get tetchy when they say the only steam powered boat but explaining what a boat is in an exact truth just wont fit on a bannour as for president isnt president so what its a steamer that is a fact. Alot of boat lost there identertys in bw hands but do we drone on about them as well no we enjoy they for what they are now

[Hairy-Neil]

Old wounds....

 

Thinking it a worthwhile cause I put a donation in President's shaky tin back in 1994, towards a new build replica of her original engine. I trust the engine fund is earning good interest....

[Speedwheel]

Alot of boat lost there identertys in bw hands but do we drone on about them as well no we enjoy they for what they are now

 

Yes some of us do "drone on about them". The reason is that we find it interesting. Working out how and why it may or may not be a particular boat. The interest of researching, debating, talking to different people and (trying) to work it out.

One particular member on here has probably spent more time and money than he cares to admit to researching and documenting old boats. As such he has probably the best collection of such information and it is a valuable and interesting resourse for many of us - though I'm sure he doesn't get anything like the praise due.

 

Just becasue you are happy to 'enjoy them for what they are', which to me sounds like creating a pretty picture with no care or understanding of the history or background of each craft, doesn't mean that some of us do not find it fascinating.

 

Personally I enjoy my boat just as much (if not more) for what it has been than for what it is now.

 

(also many boats lost their identity while not in BWs hands)

 

its from new hell lets just cut them all up as they will all be classed as replicas.

 

What a load of nonsense. Certainly there some that have had major amounts of new materials put into to them, but there are many that are largely original.

[djgoode1980]

Yes some of us do "drone on about them". The reason is that we find it interesting. Working out how and why it may or may not be a particular boat. The interest of researching, debating, talking to different people and (trying) to work it out.

One particular member on here has probably spent more time and money than he cares to admit to researching and documenting old boats. As such he has probably the best collection of such information and it is a valuable and interesting resourse for many of us - though I'm sure he doesn't get anything like the praise due.

 

Just becasue you are happy to 'enjoy them for what they are', which to me sounds like creating a pretty picture with no care or understanding of the history or background of each craft, doesn't mean that some of us do not find it fascinating.

 

Personally I enjoy my boat just as much (if not more) for what it has been than for what it is now.

 

(also many boats lost their identity while not in BWs hands)

 

 

 

What a load of nonsense. Certainly there some that have had major amounts of new materials put into to them, but there are many that are largely original.

 

That was my point I enjoy the history of the boats and have no interested in cutting them up it was just my way of saying stop moaning about what others have done if you arnt prepaired to try yourself and if you do you will have the same criticism from the same people

Edited April 21, 2012 by djgoode1980

[djgoode1980]

Old wounds....

 

Thinking it a worthwhile cause I put a donation in President's shaky tin back in 1994, towards a new build replica of her original engine. I trust the engine fund is earning good interest....

they are still collecting money but costs have gone up as the guy who was sorting plans etc passed away so now the hunt is on for someone to take over the project

Edited April 21, 2012 by djgoode1980

[saltysplash]

Almost a 2 yr old resurection, not bad going.....whats the oldest, deadest dead thread youve ever seen revived?

[stagedamager]

The Turin shroud.........

 

 

 

Coat