New to boating, looking for advice before buying

[Nemysys]

I'm new to boating, and currently looking to purchase a Narrow Boat, around the 45-50 foot size, max £25k

 

I have seen two which look promising, not yet had a chance to visit them in person

1) 1980 50ft steel is 6/6/3 - from the pictures looks well looked after and the layout appears to suit our needs(based on photos alone)

2) 1999 50ft steel is 8/6/4 - just been repainted, due to be reblacked - looks ok although layout and finish not quite as good as the older boat (based on photos alone)

 

Obviously I will be looking at the boats in person before deciding.

Neither have a recent survey, which I would get done before purchasing. Would it be right for me to request the seller to get the survey done, or adjust the price to cover a survey etc?

 

From the pictures alone, the older boat looks nicer, but we cannot get to see that for a couple of weeks.

Can anyone give me any pointers / reasons whether I should be leaning towards the newer boat or the older boat (assuming the survey was ok on either)

 

The thicker steel and the newer boat is what is swaying me from the older boat which we like the look of more.

 

Thanks

Darren

[bottle]

First welcome to the forum.

 

No one can advise you on which boat would be best, although some may try, .

 

It will come down to survey and that is down to you as you will be buying the boat, do you think the seller is going to have a survey carried out that will tell you the boat is a wreck do not. buy it.

 

Pick the boat you want, with your head, not your heart, the inside can always be updated relatively cheaply but if the hull is no good then that will cost thousands.

 

Have a full survey (discuss with your surveyor what you want and to the cost)

 

If you decide on one boat by all means make an offer 'subject to survey' but be prepared to walk away, if your surveyor says it is a 'lemon'.

 

There is nearly twenty years difference in age, so there should be a a fairly big difference in asking price but that will also depend on hull builder and the fit out.

[Nemysys]

Thanks for the reply.

 

 

I guess you have picked up on the thing that is niggling me.

There is almost 20 years difference, yet the prices are as near as dammit the same.

 

is a 30 year old boat (Engineering Co Watford) at £25k overpriced, or a 10 year old boat (Club Line Cruisers) at £25k underpriced - the old addage 'if its too good to be true, it probably is' ?

[bottle]

My knowledge of hull and boat builders is not good enough to advise but we have some knowledgeable members and I am sure they will be along later.

[petalponk]

The only bit of advice i would give you is -

 

I fell in love with a lot of boats online, but almost all of them, when i actually saw them, I did not like, descriptions and photo's can in no way beat going to see a boat.

 

Also i've dismissed boats i've seen online, but having seen them in the flesh, they're a lot better. (for example i never wanted a cruiser stern - guess what my boats got )

[Nemysys]

Thanks again for the advice.

 

We have been to see some, which has focused our criteria - i.e. We definitely want a cruiser stern. So my wife, 3 1/2yr old son and I are not at seperate ends of the boat for most of the day!

As you say, we have seen some boats, which look great on paper, but in the flesh/steel - a definite No.

 

I'm definitly up for ensuring the structural side of things is ok, but have realised that the interior layout is important.

Being disabled, I need to ensure I can get around inside OK.

 

 

Should I be concerned over a 30yr old boat if it passes a survey?

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks for the reply.

 

 

I guess you have picked up on the thing that is niggling me.

There is almost 20 years difference, yet the prices are as near as dammit the same.

 

is a 30 year old boat (Engineering Co Watford) at £25k overpriced, or a 10 year old boat (Club Line Cruisers) at £25k underpriced - the old addage 'if its too good to be true, it probably is' ?

 

 

When we were looking for a boat Club Line seemed to have a thing for budget boats AND they often used the Ford XLD engine. It may well be ex-hire. That is not a bad thing in itself but add that to a cheap hull and belt driven engine camshaft and you can begin to see why the prices are comparable.

 

Unfortunately I know nothing about the other builder.

 

Survey - survey - survey and walk away if the vendor will not agree to "subject to survey" with the return of your deposit.

[Nemysys]

Thanks Tony

 

Exactly the sort of info I was looking for. You are completely right it does have a Ford Diesel engine.

 

As I thought, the price looked too good, so there had to be some compromise somewhere.

 

 

 

If a boat passes a survey, should I be concerned if it is 30 years old?

[Nemysys]

The 30 year old boat I am looking at has a

 

4 Cylinder BMC 1.8 engine with a PRM 150 gearbox.

 

Being a novice this means very little to me, is this a good engine / gearbox, easy to maintain, easy to get parts etc?

[mrsmelly]

The 30 year old boat I am looking at has a

 

4 Cylinder BMC 1.8 engine with a PRM 150 gearbox.

 

Being a novice this means very little to me, is this a good engine / gearbox, easy to maintain, easy to get parts etc?

 

Hi

From what I have seen and looked at over the years I would leave club line alone.

Bmc 1.8 engines are thought by many to be a dated engine now but in reality they are excellent for the job. They are a little noisier than modern units but pretty unburstable, easy to work on and plentiful spares. The prm 150 is an exellent well tried and trusted gearbox.

[Nemysys]

Thank you

 

Still looking for an answer to this though....

 

If a boat passes a survey, should I be concerned if it is 30 years old?

[Paul Evans]

Thank you

 

Still looking for an answer to this though....

 

If a boat passes a survey, should I be concerned if it is 30 years old?

 

I'm not sure that a survey can be "passed". A survey should tell you about the condition of the hull, engine, gas and electrical systems and, possibly, fixtures and fittings. You might find the condition as described in the survey acceptable; I might not. For you, the boat "passes"; for me, it does not.

 

Assuming that the condition of the engine, gas and electrical systems and fixtures and fittings are OK, my main concern with a 30-year old boat would be the thickness of the steel used to build it. At that time, builders generally used much thinner steel than they do now. The numbers you quote, 6/3/3, are fairly typical for a boat of that age and contrast markedly with the general current thicknesses of 10/6/4. Unless the boat has been remarkably well maintained, overplating of the hull is probably not that far away. The survey should provide you with an indication of the remaining hull thickness and tell you about potential areas of weakness. I have no doubt that the surveyor will pay particular attention to steel thickness along the waterline (where corrosion tends to be more prevalent) and to the state of baseplate/hull joint (where rubbing wear tends to be more prevalent) but you should be sure that these areas will be looked at in some detail.

[Nemysys]

Thanks Paul, appreciate we all see things differently. I just want to make sure that I dont buy a boat that will need major work in 5 years time based on its current condition. I understand that eventually it will need work.

 

As an example

I did read a survey on another boat (neither of the two mentioned above) where the original steel was 5mm, and the recent survey indicated that it was now between 4.4 and 5.1 mm

 

I had concerns over the 4.4mm as I understand the minimum for insurance purposes is 4mm. I decided not to question it at that marina in case they were biased, but went to another marina, and asked. They said that in their opinion, it showed that the steel on the 20 year old boat was deteriorating slowly and not to be concerned. I can see their point of view in respect % terms, but even so, 4.4mm seems a bit too close to 4mm!

[Paul Evans]

I have not heard that all insurance companies insist on hull thickness of more than 4mm before they will provide insurance. If that were the case, you wouldn't be thinking about the 30-year old boat which has side-plating of 3mm only. You could, I suppose, look for 3rd party and salvage insurance only but I'm not sure that I would want a £25K asset lying around uninsured. Do others know if insurance companies are being this restrictive?

 

That 20-year old boat has lost, on average, 0.03mm of steel thickness each year. Assuming the maintenance regime is maintained and there are no major changes (such as hooking-up to a mains supply long term without appropriate protection), it will take more than 10 years for the thickness to drop to 4mm. Are you worrying too much? I am rather conservative when it comes to hull thickness and I would, probably, not take the risk with this boat or with the 30-year old boat you are thinking about. But that is me. I'm sure their will be others along who will disagree with me.

[Québec]

Thank you

 

Still looking for an answer to this though....

 

If a boat passes a survey, should I be concerned if it is 30 years old?

 

We bought our boat two years ago when it was 22 years old.

It had been poorly maintained and had been on a hard standing for 18 months.

Our budget was very similar to yours.

The first thing we did, before we actually bought it, was to put in an offer 'subject to survey' (as has already been suggested) and then book a full survey, which I attended (the surveyor didn't mind at all).

The survey found that the only things that WERE sound were the hull and the engine.

Virtually everything else i.e. most of the interior fixtures and fittings and all electrics and plumbing had to be chucked and replaced.

We obtained estimates as to the cost of the work that needed doing, and reduced our offer accordingly, which was (eventually and reluctantly) accepted.

For us (and for anyone I would have thought) the condition of the hull is of prime importance. Our surveyor gave us strong indications - but no guarantees of course - that the hull was sound and would most likely remain so for several years. As it happens, we've just had it out of the water for blacking and took the opportunity to have just a hull survey undertaken by the same surveyor. There has been no change in two years - based on the areas of hull sampled - for which reassurance we felt it was money well spent.

 

Others on here will no doubt know much more about this than me, but the engineer/welder working in the shed next to us commented that though our baseplate and sides are (were!)6mm, the quality of the steel on older boats tends to be/can be of a higher quality than more modern boats.

 

Feel free to PM me if you want any more info.

 

Paul

 

edited to add: not sure this answers your actual question....but I don't think a boat can 'pass a survey' (though it can pass a safety inspection). The survey provides you with information as to the current state and future possibilities. It should tell you what might be OK for a few years and what needs repairing/replacing immediately or in the short term. It's up to you to make an informed decision.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Québec

[Nemysys]

Thanks Paul.

 

There seems to have been a typo appear in the thread, the actual boat I am looking at is 6/6/3 (not 6/3/3)

I was told (maybe wrongly) that a minimum of 4/4/x was required before it needed over plating.

 

You may be right, I may be worrying too much, it is lack of knowledge, and to me, a big chunk of money! I want to make sure what I buy is right!

 

Please keep the comments coming though, it is helping.

 

Darren

[Neil2]

I doubt there is a member of this forum who has always followed the various "golden rules" of boat buying.

 

The trouble is it is an emotional decision, whether we like it or not, and you simply can't reduce it to which boat has the better hull, better engine, etc etc.

 

Our second boat, the one we have now, was a choice made between two boats and quite similar to the scenario you have described. But in our case the old boat was significantly cheaper than the newer one, and I could see that I would have a lot more fun spending the money saved on making mods to the older boat and most of all I wouldn't have to worry when something broke. Having a boat and not having the money to put things right when it goes wrong (it will) is a recipe for misery.

 

Someone else, particularly if they are not interested in the technical side, might come to a different decision. Both would be equally valid.

 

People will debate hull thicknesses till the cows some home. There are way too many variables involved for anyone to say a 20 year old hull is better than a 30 year old hull, regardless of the original spec. All that matters is what it is like now, and that is where your surveyor comes in.

I do find it strange though how folk in the narrowboat world get so worried about hull thicknesses that sea going boats are built with routinely. A narrowboat tends to have thick plating because its (box) shape is inherently weak. It's nothing to do with longevity. So if was ok for a NB to be built with 6mmm in the 1970's why isn't it now? Why boats have been built with progressively thicker and thicker plating over the years, aspecially the base plate, is a well discussed subject.

 

The best advice I can offer is talk to as many boat owners as you can before making any decisions. If you haven't already done it, have a walk up and down you nearest canal towpath on a nice day when there are people about, ask narrowboat owners about their boats - the vast majority will be only too happy to give you the benefit of their experience.

[Tony Brooks]

The 30 year old boat I am looking at has a

 

4 Cylinder BMC 1.8 engine with a PRM 150 gearbox.

 

Being a novice this means very little to me, is this a good engine / gearbox, easy to maintain, easy to get parts etc?

 

 

Some would say the 1.5 is a better engine but my feeling is they are much of a muchness and as long as it is in good condition should give good service (there is some question about cylinder head gaskets on the 1.8 but I'd rather have one of those than that Ford lump. If you are into major DIY on the engine it will require a special spanner for tightening some of the cylinder head nuts but not for service items. They also need a gauge to set the injection timing from scratch but just changing an injector pump is very simple. Service items are easily obtained. Oil filter is off one of the Sierras (and Bukh) and the fuel filter must be the most common around - no problem from motor factors. If you look over the next 10 years I suspect you may find major parts become more difficult to come by but at the moment AMC, Calcutt Boats and ASAP supplies all stock parts.

 

The gearbox is one of the most respected makes available and is very robust, however at that age you may have worn clutches so there can be no guarantees.

 

On a 30 year old boat that gearbox and engine combination suggests to me that it may well have been changed in the past.

 

The survey will list a whole load of "faults" - note the parentheses. Then you have to decide if the "faults" are a concern. If, for instance, it said the hull was pitted to 4mm (leaving 2mm of steel) I would suggest that you walk away from it. If it says it is pitted up to 1.5mm and the wear chines/overhang is down to 1/4" you can probably ignore it. In an ideal world you would have a knowledgeable and trustworthy friend to discuss it with but you can also ask on here. Personally I would rather have an old boat that is in fair condition and has been well looked after than a newer one by a budget builder who may have taken all sorts of short cuts. Others do not agree but I see nothing wrong with an ex-hire boat out of a REPUTABLE fleet.

[Windfola]

Just a quick thought - you mention being disabled, though not how. If your mobility is impaired, it's worth bearing in mind that steps/ladders into boat cabins vary enormously. Some steps are boxed in and relatively shallow and easy. Others are more like ladders, steep, narrow and difficult, especially if you're carrying stuff.

 

Just something I have noticed in my search (still searching) that might have an impact on your decision, particularly if you find you have to make adaptations. For me is has been working out what my elderly dog can manage!

[Nemysys]

Thanks all

My disability is with mobility, so I do take access into consideration

 

 

I have just found an alternative boat, this has the BMC 1.5 with a HBW150 box

Just had a quick google and the HBW150 doesn't seem to be highly rated is this correct ( most sites I saw appeared to be US based)

[Tony Brooks]

If the HBW150 is a Hurth box (now part of ZF) then yes Hurth has gained something of a reputation. However I suspect that builders fitting the minimum sized box they think they can get away with may have something to do with it. This one is a mechanical box so will "change gear" as fast as you can push the lever (again this allows easy abuse) The PRM 150 & above are hydraulic boxes that change gear as they think fit. This allows a certain degree of slip when slamming from ahead to astern.

[Nemysys]

Many thanks to all that replied.

 

Today we were able to look at the 1980 boat I mentioned in my first post. It didn't disappoint. This was the first boat that lived up to the pictures and we both loved it straight away. We still looked at other newer ones afterwards but nothing lived up to It. Offer was put in (subject to survey) and has been accepted.

 

Fingers crossed!

 

Thanks again to all your comments and advice, I'm sure I'll be back on asking more stupid questions soon.

 

Happy boating days ahead!

[Rod a mod from Tod]

Hi there Nemysys. We have just gone through the boat buying process and whoever said the most stressful thing in life you can do is buy a house had never bought a boat.

 

Is the boat in the water or on a hard standing. When we put our offer in this was subject to survey and a decent cruise of about an hour as a trial run. One of the sales team said it was amazing how may people bought boats off hard standings without any kind trial run. This trial run in our case proved to be invaluable as a problem came to light which would not have done in a quick 10-15 run. We still did the deal on assurance that the problem would be put right.

 

We were only going to have a hull survey but as it was only about £90 extra for a full jobbie we went for that. As other have said there is no pass and fail and it is up to you to make a decision on the facts provided. I think in my mind i was hoping for the surveyor to say " this boat is the best boat ever built and will serve you well for the next 25yrs" or "this boat is a dog with fleas". I got what i wanted from the hull part of the survey but i am not to sure i got much more from my extra £90 that i didn't already know.Tony Brooks comments on the metal thickness are what i more or less picked up on in my own report. The worst section on my 15yr old boat was 1.4mm of pitting on 7.65mm section of 8mm plate giving a parent thickness of 6.24. Presuming that the boat will deteriorate at the same pace as it previously has it is due to sink on the 18th August 2093.

 

Hope it all goes well.(Your survey not my sinking)

[Nemysys]

Again, thanks to all who answered questions and gave opinions, much appreciated.

 

Offer was accepted yesterday, spoke to the brokerage today who had received an 18 month old hull survey. Terms like 'made from superior quality steel' and 'no pitting found' was very comforting, blacked in 2009 (at time of survey) and fully painted and blacked in 2010 (seen the receipts) has given me a very good feel.

 

Based on this, decided on an in water survey only.

 

Getting really excited, even my 3 yr old has already decided which bed he will sleep in!

 

 

 

Rod - hope all doesn't go to plan on 18th August 2093! Many happy years of boating yet!

[bottle]

Based on this, decided on an in water survey only.

 

Your choice but............................... me being a pessimist..................................a lot can happen in 18 months.

 

Especially if it has been connected to a shoreline and does not have galvanic corrosion protection.