Fire extinguishers

[DHutch]

Not only should every boat have up-to-date fire extinguishers, but each passenger should be instructed how to turn off any fuel lines, especially propane-type gas used for cooking and heating.

Yeah, deffonatly. No point in having it if you dont know where it is or cant use it!

- Certainly all the adults (me/mum/dad/Gdad) know where everything is, extingushiers, blankets, isolator valves/switches etc.

 

 

Daniel

[denboy]

can i just ask this question when was the last time any one died as a result of a fire on board a boat on the inland waterways ??Apart from the plonker who used hose pipe as a gas pipe run down the outside of his boat about 4 years ago on the broads

Edited March 1, 2006 by denis boyle

[nigel carton]

can i just ask this question when was the last time any one died as a result of a fire on board a boat on the inland waterways ??Apart from the plonker who used hose pipe as a gas pipe run down the outside of his boat about 4 years ago on the broads

 

It only took 30 seconds to punch in fires/fatilities/boats on Google....... :-

 

 

 

Following several boat fires and the recent deaths near Warwick, the Boat Safety Scheme office has initiated an assessment of solid fuel stoves within craft on the inland waterways. A boat surveyor, who is also an examiner under the Boat Safety Scheme, has been commissioned to carry out an industry wide survey on accidents and incidents relating to solid fuel stoves.

 

The navigation authorities have a poor record on the collection of accident information, generally only those with fatal results being reported. In the first instance the assessor is attempting to determine roughly how many accidents or incidents occur in a year. He would be grateful to receive details or experience of fires, fume inhalation or damaged stoves causing problems along with the date and type of boat. These can be sent, through IWA Head Office, to John Baylis, who is IWA's representative on the Boat Safety Scheme Committees for him to pass on, in confidence, to the assessor.

[DHutch]

....

 

I beleave everyone walked away, but still, its food for thought...

[denboy]

....

 

I beleave everyone walked away, but still, its food for thought...

 

 

very unfortunate the main thing is nobody injured my point is no amount of correctly labeled kite marked fire extinguishers are going to put that out are they

[Moley]

I wish you lot would stop showing that picture, it's a Calcutt, like ours

 

I did question the logic of removing perfectly good polystyrene insulation, and replacing with rockwool and urethane, a couple of hundred quid that didn't really need spending, but all that black smoke does make you think, especially when the old wiring was gradually melting into the polystyrene.

 

Anyway, we've got 3 powder extinguishers, which I will give a good shake (thanks for that, Dave R), and a blanket, but will certainly invest in a CO2 as well.

[DHutch]

I wish you lot would stop showing that picture, it's a Calcutt, like ours

Yeah, im sorry. I like it, it makes you think, and i think thats a good thing.

- There are a lot of boats out there with polyeurthene insulation, with wires runining behing the lining, just like that one, just like our one.

 

But for moleys sake, here a diffrent boat...

 

 

Daniel

[John Orentas]

Good grief, the polystyrene insulation and PVC wires again.

 

Another one of those theoretical problems, has anyone heard of at boat bursting into flames because of this. But not 'I know a chap who's brother in law had a boat that set on fire'. About 20 years ago there was an article in one of the mags' someone came up with this idea and everyone jumped onto the band-waggon, I very much doubt if the interaction has ever given rise to any actual problems.

 

Yes, let us avoid the possibility of contact by all means but let's not loose any sleep over it.

[tony collins]

Good grief, the polystyrene insulation and PVC wires again.

 

 

 

 

When I fitted out my boat, which is insulated with polystyrene sheet, I went to great lengths to aviod contact bewteen the wires and the poly. I put all the wire in domestic plastic trunking. Whether this was necessary or not, I felt happier afterwards having done it.

 

Tony

[Guest]

Good grief, the polystyrene insulation and PVC wires again.

 

Another one of those theoretical problems, has anyone heard of at boat bursting into flames because of this. But not 'I know a chap who's brother in law had a boat that set on fire'. About 20 years ago there was an article in one of the mags' someone came up with this idea and everyone jumped onto the band-waggon, I very much doubt if the interaction has ever given rise to any actual problems.

 

Yes, let us avoid the possibility of contact by all means but let's not loose any sleep over it.

Yes with hindsight (a wonderful thing) it is correct to avoid contact with polystyrene when wiring. I have come across twin and earth type cable in houses that has turned black and rather brittle for an inch or so were it passes through polystyrene ceiling tiles. It is however rare and seems to affect some cables more so than others. I have never seen it cause a genuine problem however. Another way around the problem is to use butyl type cable it would seem. Anyone know if this silicone stuff is OK

[Moley]

I went to great lengths to aviod contact between the wires and the poly .... Whether this was necessary or not, I felt happier afterwards having done it.

Our boat needed totally gutting, I have stripped out all old polystyrene insulation and all old wiring. Over a period of years, all of the wiring seems to have sunk into the poly, and most was quite sticky.

 

However, all of the wiring insulation sleeving seemed sound and intact, in the long-term reaction between the two, it was the polystyrene that came off worst.

 

Still, better to be safe than sorry.

[dor]

I, er, know a boat that has has some pvc T&E in contact with polystyrene for over 15 years, and it looks as though it was installed yesterday. So maybe there is some variation in how easily affected the pvc is.

[Keeping Up]

It must depend on the make-up of the two insulations, and on the temperatures they attain, and maybe other factors too. In 15 years some of our wires (not T&E, but sleeved twin flex) had sunk nearly 1cm into the poly; the outer sleeving of the wire felt sticky but was otherwise apparently unaffected - still flexible and not at all brittle. All the same I feel a lot more comfortable after spending time this winter sliding hosepipe over the cables to act as mini-conduits, with just a nagging doubt over the one or two wires that I couldn't get to, either to check or to insulate.

[ChrisPy]

I'm really surprised that so many people seem to have wiring fixed within the insulation. All my longitudinal runs will be in accessible locations:

- under the gunwale, fixed to a 70x19 batten, with AC in mini trunking. no cover board required. always visible except at fixed furniture units.

- DC only along the junction of the wall and deckhead (ceiling), in a 'pelmet'. Again always accessible for inspection. The pelmet also provides a neat detail at the corner.

- DC only fixed to a central cover strip that is proud of the ceiling. Accessible by removing a couple of screws. The panels also provide a neat fixing for the traditional circular brass deckhead lights.

 

The only inaccessible runs will be short spurs less than 2ft long from the central ceiling location to the roof mounted extractor fan and a light in the bathroom, fixed in conduit.

 

The design was not intended to be particularly smart, actually quite the opposite. Because I know that the wiring requirements will change during fit-out, I have allowed total flexibility to introduce additional cables whenever I want.

 

I suggest that all new builds might like to consider a simialr solution. I recall a comment on another thread about the unnecessary philosophy of 'first fixing' of electrics on yard built boats.

 

I know, but may be of interest.

Edited March 5, 2006 by chris polley

[Keeping Up]

I'm really surprised that so many people seem to have wiring fixed within the insulation. All my longitudinal runs will be in accessible locations:

- under the gunwale, fixed to a 70x19 batten, with AC in mini trunking. no cover board required. always visible except at fixed furniture units.

- DC only along the junction of the wall and deckhead (ceiling), in a 'pelmet'. Again always accessible for inspection. The pelmet also provides a neat detail at the corner.

- DC only fixed to a central cover strip that is proud of the ceiling. Accessible by removing a couple of screws. The panels also provide a neat fixing for the traditional circular brass deckhead lights.

 

The only inaccessible runs will be short spurs less than 2ft long from the central ceiling location to the roof mounted extractor fan and a light in the bathroom, fixed in conduit.

 

The design was not intended to be particularly smart, actually quite the opposite. Because I know that the wiring requirements will change during fit-out, I have allowed total flexibility to introduce additional cables whenever I want.

 

I suggest that all new builds might like to consider a simialr solution. I recall a comment on another thread about the unnecessary philosophy of 'first fixing' of electrics on yard built boats.

 

I know, but may be of interest.

Mine is essentially the same as you describe, with everything accessible in the same way, but that hasn't stopped it from reacting with the insulation lining in two ways:

 

1. As you describe, the short tails to the lights (and in about one-half of them, to the light swtiches as well)react with the roof insulation. It just happens that this is for all the lights and not just a couple as in your case.

 

2. The woodwork of the wall stops just short of the ceiling, and the pelmet is fixed on its face as you describe with all the wires in the gap that this creates. This allowed them to be in contact with the top of wall insulation, with which it reacted.

[GRPCruiserman]

The difference between your house and your boat is that the house is static. The day your boat catches fire it might well be a mile or more into a tunnel. Fighting the fire could be the only means of staying alive.

 

I have first hand experience of a boat fire, a hire boat I was on a couple of years ago had a major electrical fault and the boat was filled with acrid smoke. Luckily boats also require another safety feature, a battery master switch and turning this off averted a major disaster on this occasion. The incident occured on the Trent & Mersey canal and our holiday ended there. A couple of hours later and we could well have been half way through Harecastle. You cannot have too many safety features.

 

My thoughts on reading this thread were what if you were on a tidal river such as The Ribble or Tidal Trent and you have a fire. When I went up The Trent from Keadby some years ago, apart from a large ship just outside Keadby lock which waited for our 20ft Norman to pass, and getting stuck behind a large power station part moving at about 4mph, we didn't see or pass another craft until we reached above Torksey. If we'd had a fire we would have been on our own, with no one to help. The possibility of extiguishing a fire could have saved our lives if one had broken out at that time.

 

We had life jackets, VHF, etc etc, but if a fire had broken out we would have needed to put it out, especially as leaving The Chesterfield canal we were full to the brim with petrol and the engine running at high speed.

 

I remember when I was eight years old seeing a speed boat on fire on Windermere. The vision haunts me to this day. Horrible. Lucky for them their were lots of people about. Apparently it was a cigarrette that started it.

 

I still enter locks where people are smoking on other boats, I don't think people are aware of the dangers of petrol fumes. My boat is correctly vented but the lock isn't, and that is where my fumes are vented too!! All you narrowboaters, remember this when sharing with a petrol craft, or any craft that has gas on it, including your own!!

[fender.]

I still enter locks where people are smoking on other boats, I don't think people are aware of the dangers of petrol fumes. My boat is correctly vented but the lock isn't, and that is where my fumes are vented too!! All you narrowboaters, remember this when sharing with a petrol craft, or any craft that has gas on it, including your own!!

 

hear! hear! I remember recently going through Braunston tunnel, stuck behind a boat on which a full breakfast was being prepapred. I could smell eggs, bacon the lot. I thought what if the whole thing blows up? What a bunch of ignorant prats they were. Cos having a gas cooker on is not allowed whilst in a tunnel.

[RobinR]

I have real and, I believe genuine concerns re the use of powder extinguishers on narowboats. I had a holiday three years ago in a 60ft hired boat with two 2kg and one 3kg ABC dry powder units which were 5-6 yeas old and had never been serviced from new! (BS5306-3:2003 requires an annual basic service and an extended service at 5 year intervals for these units). The powder in all 3 was very compacted and could only be initially "fluffed up" with a huge effort! I "fluffed up" the units daily for my week on the boat and observed the compaction of the powder was much greater than I would normally expect. I am certain had any extinguisher on any boat in that fleet been used that year (other than those in the one I hired), they would have failed to operate, the pressurising gas finding an exit path down the outside of the dip tube then venting with very litttle - if any - powder. Another concern is that 6kg or more of powder let off in a 40 to 60ft boat will severly restrict visibility and make one almighty mess. Would a better solution (no pun intended) be two 2l AFFF extinguishers with a rating of 5A/55B each and a single 2kg powder with a rating of 13A/70B be more appropriate - thus the overall value of 23A/185B exceeding the 21A/144B minimum requirement for boats over 36ft? The foam will also provide limited cooling to the fire thus reduce the likelyhood of burn back. It is also a lot less messy if accidentally discharged. For smaller boats, between 23 - 36ft, a 1kg powder at 8A/34B and a 2l AFFF at 5A/55B exactly matches the 13A/89B requirement and finally for a boat less than 23ft, two 2l AFFF units will be fine as would two 1kg ABC powders. The ratings quoted are as per the Chubb webb site who also have an alternative more environmentally friendly AFFF product at a price. I recently purchased a share in a shared ownership boat and, with the agreement of the other owners I hope, shall revise the extinguishers per the above.

Edited September 26, 2006 by RobinR

[ChrisPy]

Would a better solution (no pun intended) be two 2l AFFF extinguishers with a rating of 5A/55B each and a single 2kg powder with a rating of 13A/70B be more appropriate - thus the overall value of 23A/185B exceeding the 21A/144B minimum requirement for boats over 36ft? The foam will also provide limited cooling to the fire thus reduce the likelyhood of burn back. It is also a lot less messy if accidentally discharged.

I tend to agree, and have asked BSS office for guidance (by PM and in a separate thread) if foam is acceptable.

Still hoping for a reply from Rob.

[Guest]

I tend to agree, and have asked BSS office for guidance (by PM and in a separate thread) if foam is acceptable.

Still hoping for a reply from Rob.

Let's hope a reply is forthcoming. We keep powder ones for BSC reasons, but having seen one deployed in a small factory fire, I don't have much confidence in them.

[John Orentas]

Let's hope a reply is forthcoming. We keep powder ones for BSC reasons, but having seen one deployed in a small factory fire, I don't have much confidence in them.

 

 

Yes there is a lot to be said for having a fire instead of blasting that powder stuff around, take a good look at new extinguishers, if it says anywhere that for example 'This unit should be inspected every year......." You will have to comply so don't buy it others don't have those instructions.

 

I agree with some of the previous posts, comply with the regulations but have some of your own choice in addition.

[nigel carton]

I have got into a habit of advising boat owners to regularly remove the extinguisher from its mount including a ton of accumulated dust and turn upside down and give the base of the extinguisher a good 'smack' A better tool for this job would be a hide faced hammer (soft hammer) and tap the base. This will help to stop the powder compacting down.

[RobinR]

Let's hope a reply is forthcoming. We keep powder ones for BSC reasons, but having seen one deployed in a small factory fire, I don't have much confidence in them.

 

Re my earlier post, and your comments - technique is very important re use. Foam has to be laid in a blanket to smother the fireas does powder. Foam will also cool any hot material. One concern with foam in a boat is winter / freezing etc. Chubb 2l AFFF model EF2 (Product 7200/00) contains their LFA (low freeze addetive) whereas other makes may not (and may be future Chubb products won't but their refills for 7200's will). However all extinguishers should include their temperature operating range within their information. Reading the published BSS own guide from their website, there is no reason or foam not being accepted providing minimum criteria are met ie a minimum 5A/34B for each extinguisher combined with meeting the minimum total requirement. May be the BSS office can be asked for any specific reasons why foam is not acceptable by quoting the appropriate section of their own documentation?

[RobinR]

Another point re powder, and generally ignored. They should not be located in an area where an asthmatic person is likely to be because accidental discharge in an enclosed space can - at worst case scenario - be fatal thus they are totally unsuitable for multi user narrowboats - hire boats, shared owneship etc. Do we have to await a fatality before this is considered?

[gaggle]

Printed off pages of bsc re- fire extiguishers and no mention is made of powder , co2 foam or whatever that i can see , so is it powder as in the ones i got with the boat.

also after warnig the kids not to leave a campfire burning at any time they used one of mine to put the camp fire out ,so is it easier / cheaper to have one refilled or am i best getting a new one.

what kind of price should i be looking at for purchase of new extinguishers ,boat is 56 ft and has three small size fitted.

 

thought reading the bsc sheets would explain all but when i read this old thread i am not to sure.