NABO

[Sir Nibble]

I really don't want to be percieved as on any one side in this debate but for what it is worth I don't think Carl's points have been addressed, only sidestepped or ignored. If NABO is achieving anything on behalf of boaters then I would not have thought it too difficult to have found an example to post here. If you keep knocking on the door and get no answer, sooner or later you have to accept that there is no one home.

[David Schweizer]

It seems to have worked here.

 

What is more interesting is that the 'contentious points' raised as criticisms of Nabo are all pretty flaky and easily answered or dealt with, as anyone with an open mind will have realised. Nobody has come up with anything truly stunning to show that Nabo fails in its purpose.

I stress again, I am only speaking for myself here as an ordinary, but keen, Nabo member at this time.

 

Tone

If you really believe that then you are fooling yourself. Most of the negative criticisms raised here have been dodged by you, either because you did not wish to address them, or as I am beginning to realise, because you did not understand them. I have yet to read one good reason why I should re-join NABO, but like Carl am prepared to be persuaded, but only if at least some of my concerns are addressed, rather than simply dismissed as "flaky", or ignored.

 

.....But this thread has served it's purpose. It has had getting on for 3,000 hits, and that has raised Nabo's profile and I'm sure it has got folks looking at its website and making up their own minds, which was the main purpose, whatever folks think of my poor 'PR skills'.....

Shouldn't that be spelt Razed ?

Edited March 9, 2011 by David Schweizer

[canaldrifter]

If you really believe that then you are fooling yourself. Most of the negative cuiticisms raised here have been dodged by you, either because you did not wish to address them, or as I am beginning to realise, because you did not understand them. I have yet to read one good reason why I should re-join NABO, but like Carl am prepared to be persuaded, but only if at least some of my concerns are addressed, rather than simply dismissed as "flaky", or ignored.

 

 

Shouldn't that be spelt Razed ?

 

In view of the fact that so few out of the many readers of this column have 'raised' any 'cuiticism' (quaint word) of Nabo at all, I reckon your clever play on words is meaningless.

 

Despite what I say in favour, and what you and others who dislike Nabo have said against, folks will make up their own minds. I couldn't ask for more.

 

Tone

[Alan de Enfield]

My first (and hopefully last) post on this subject. It seems to be circular in nature with both sides believing they are in the right.

 

My comments are (as a non-member of any boating organisation and a post graduate in marketing) I cannot see what NABO would do for me as a member - the web site doesnt sell itself to me - what do I get for my money ?

 

The "Boating Association" tell you what they are involved in doing Examples :

 

The Boating Association are members of the following groups/committees:

 

•BSS Advisory committee

•BW National Advisory Forum

•Parliamentary Waterways Forum

•BW National Users Group

•National Inland Navigation Forum

•MCA Coast & Rivers Safety sub committee

•Various local user groups

•We consult on a regular basis with AINA (Association of Inland Navigation Authorities)

•We have been in contact with York City, Boston & Newark Councils on several matters of concern including, planning matters, trip boats, loss of amenities etc

•We are actively involved in various planning application matters which could affect boating.

 

 

NABO's version is :

 

1 High Speed Two 100

2 NABO responds to 2011 Licence fee consultation 225

3 NABO Announce a return to Crick in May 2011 1009

4 BW consults on changes to Boat Business Licences 941

5 British Waterways boat licence changes for 2011 1034

6 Barton Aqueduct Opening Times 2011 867

7 PLA River Works Licences for residential use 821

8 NABO Chairman welcomes IWAC's report on the third sector 699

9 The future of British Waterways - IWAC 682

10 DEFRA publish response to Waterways for Everyone 775

11 EA publish their Annual report for the non-tidal River Thames 645

12 BW's thinking on the 3rd sector? 685

13 Harbour Revision Order PLA 671

14 Have your Say on Thames Customer Service! 636

15 NABO welcomes fines for Thames boaters with no licence 696

16 NABO responds to Waterways for Everyone 716

17 NABO supports BW's 2020 746

18 Waterways for Everyone 701

19 NABO response to BW's licence fees proposals 776

20 Response to BW Local Mooring Consultation 09 823

 

This list is prefaced with (quote) "Details of Current Consultations that NABO, its members and/or the boating community at large are interested in".

 

The relevant part is NABO are 'interested in" , they are not taking any active role or participating (from what I can see on the website - could be wrong maybe its just not 'public')

NABO "responds to", "NABO's response", "NABO welcomes Fines ..." Are NABO just reporting what has happened or are they actually contributing anything to Waterways Policies ?

What committees or steering groups are NABO involved with ?

 

If NABO is / is not sitting on any of these committes etc, then tell us, we then know what you are or are not.

 

Yes NABO needs PR but PR is only a fraction of 'Marketing' and from what I have seen NABO needs to undertake a full review of their Marketing plans and strategies to be able to meet the definition of what Marketing means.

 

"The management process responsible for identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer requirements profitably"

Edited March 9, 2011 by Alan de Enfield

[Chris Pink]

Oh. The constitution is now up - they just haven't changed the front page...

 

I have no idea why it's supposed to make me want to join NABO. The council gets to decide what actions are appropriate, and indeed can refuse membership without giving reasons, and you can't join unless you agree to be bound by a constitution that gives the council unreasonable powers.

 

It's not selling me anything at all. Why would you want me to look at that? Seriously.

 

Well the constitution, as far as I read it is solely the legal requirement for a voluntary organisation. As such the 'meat' (or vegeburger) is in this;

 

2. OBJECTS

The objects of the Association shall be as follows:

(a) to provide effective representation for owners of vessels on Britain’s inland waterways on any

subject or matter which is relevant to the owners of such vessels.

b. to organise events, demonstrations, rallies or other activities which in the opinion of the Council

will further the object in clause (a) above, but not to organise or actively engage in any event which

would in the opinion of the Council bring the Association into disrepute.

 

Though it could be said that this topic is in direct contravention of clause 2b. Tony's increasingly defensive and stroppy comments are not helping NABO.

 

What would be far more useful would be a mission statement and a statement of long and short term objectives.

 

In my opinion, slightly biased, but only slightly I have no editorial input, I think that the magazine is leading the way in this respect and the website needs to catch up.

 

I put a link to the latest generally available copy of the magazine earlier. It is considered by many at NABO to be a breath of fresh air and a glimpse the possible visions of a future in a canal system in its current state of flux.

 

Here it is again.

 

It has interesting articles on NABO's stance on amongst other things the Ultra Vires allegations.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Chris Pink

[canaldrifter]

My first (and hopefully last) post on this subject. It seems to be circular in nature with both sides believing they are in the right.

 

My comments are (as a non-member of any boating organisation and a post graduate in marketing) I cannot see what NABO would do for me as a member - the web site doesnt sell itself to me - what do I get for my money ?

 

The "Boating Association" tell you what they are involved in doing Examples :

 

The Boating Association are members of the following groups/committees:

 

•BSS Advisory committee

•BW National Advisory Forum

•Parliamentary Waterways Forum

•BW National Users Group

•National Inland Navigation Forum

•MCA Coast & Rivers Safety sub committee

•Various local user groups

•We consult on a regular basis with AINA (Association of Inland Navigation Authorities)

•We have been in contact with York City, Boston & Newark Councils on several matters of concern including, planning matters, trip boats, loss of amenities etc

•We are actively involved in various planning application matters which could affect boating.

 

Apart from the last two items, in my time on council Nabo was involved directly in all of the above, and much more.

 

But I do agree that Nabo should present itself a lot more professionally than it does now.

 

Tone

Edited March 9, 2011 by canaldrifter

[carlt]

 

My first (and hopefully last) post on this subject. It seems to be circular in nature with both sides believing they are in the right.

 

My comments are (as a non-member of any boating organisation and a post graduate in marketing) I cannot see what NABO would do for me as a member - the web site doesnt sell itself to me - what do I get for my money ?

 

The "Boating Association" tell you what they are involved in doing Examples :

 

The Boating Association are members of the following groups/committees:

 

•BSS Advisory committee

•BW National Advisory Forum

•Parliamentary Waterways Forum

•BW National Users Group

•National Inland Navigation Forum

•MCA Coast & Rivers Safety sub committee

•Various local user groups

•We consult on a regular basis with AINA (Association of Inland Navigation Authorities)

•We have been in contact with York City, Boston & Newark Councils on several matters of concern including, planning matters, trip boats, loss of amenities etc

•We are actively involved in various planning application matters which could affect boating.

Best post you've made on this thread, Tone.

 

You've convinced me.

 

Edited to add. Actually thanks to Alan. TBA's website is impressive and has definitely piqued my interest.

Edited March 9, 2011 by carlt

[Albion]

Ok sorry , been seeing things in a different tone since 11 am today when "MY ADVISOR" from DWP said she did like like my tone as i told her her advice was not needed ,wanted ,asked for or welcome .

No probs.

Roger

[ymu]

Well the constitution, as far as I read it is solely the legal requirement for a voluntary organisation. As such the 'meat' (or vegeburger) is in this;

 

 

 

Though it could be said that this topic is in direct contravention of clause 2b. Tony's increasingly defensive and stroppy comments are not helping NABO.

 

What would be far more useful would be a mission statement and a statement of long and short term objectives.

 

In my opinion, slightly biased, but only slightly I have no editorial input, I think that the magazine is leading the way in this respect and the website needs to catch up.

 

I put a link to the latest generally available copy of the magazine earlier. It is considered by many at NABO to be a breath of fresh air and a glimpse the possible visions of a future in a canal system in its current state of flux.

 

Here it is again.

 

It has interesting articles on NABO's stance on amongst other things the Ultra Vires allegations.

Yes, the magazine is good, and the ultra vires stuff looks promising.

 

On the constitution - yeah, you have to have one, but you don't have to have one which vests so much power in the committee (Council, whatever it calls itself).

 

Having a website that needs a webmaster can be a huge problem for voluntary organisations (as can control-freak committees). You might be better off looking at a simple blog format that can be easily edited by a number of different people, if it's not possible to set up a more bespoke site with idiot-proof content-editing features.

[canaldrifter]

 

 

I suspect you won't be getting the PR gig, Tone,

 

 

I don't particularly want it. I have offered to do it because council is already overstretched, and nobody else seems to be willing to do it. But I can't see council refusing my offer because Carl of canal world forum declares that I'm doing them no favours, can you?

 

3,171 and counting.

 

Tone

[Albion]

snipped

Yes NABO needs PR but PR is only a fraction of 'Marketing' and from what I have seen NABO needs to undertake a full review of their Marketing plans and strategies to be able to meet the definition of what Marketing means.

 

"The management process responsible for identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer requirements profitably"

 

Alan undoubtedly has a point but, as with all small organisations run by volunteers, it isn't always easy to ensure that you have all the expertise available such that the management is handled as professionally as a large company. Alan is speaking with the skills of a marketing qualification. What are the odds of someone even half as qualified in marketing being on the NABO committee?

That does not, though, prevent them trying to address the issue (using the definition given) and the concerns raised in this thread.

Roger

[canaldrifter]

Best post you've made on this thread, Tone.

 

You've convinced me.

 

Edited to add. Actually thanks to Alan. TBA's website is impressive and has definitely piqued my interest.

 

Yes, it is very good. They're lucky that they have someone who has the skill, time and energy to put it together.

 

I think Nabo's webmaster has improved the site no end from what it was, but there is still work to do. I agree with Chris there.

 

Tone

[ymu]

You're not doing them any favours, Tone, and Carl is by no means the only person to point that out.

 

You might be right and he might be wrong, but you're not going to win anyone over by refusing to address his points, pretending that he is the only person with anything bad to say because of some mysterious agenda that noone but you seems to know about.

[Chris Pink]

You're not doing them any favours, Tone, and Carl is by no means the only person to point that out.

 

You might be right and he might be wrong, but you're not going to win anyone over by refusing to address his points, pretending that he is the only person with anything bad to say because of some mysterious agenda that noone but you seems to know about.

 

See Post #65, the only authoritative statement from a member of NABO council on this thread.

[David Schweizer]

In view of the fact that so few out of the many readers of this column have 'raised' any 'cuiticism' (quaint word) of Nabo at all, I reckon your clever play on words is meaningless.

 

Despite what I say in favour, and what you and others who dislike Nabo have said against, folks will make up their own minds. I couldn't ask for more.

 

Tone

 

 

 

 

 

 

I suspect you won't be getting the PR gig, Tone, you are doing them no favours whatsoever.

 

 

I don't particularly want it. I have offered to do it because council is already overstretched, and nobody else seems to be willing to do it. But I can't see council refusing my offer because Carl of canal world forum declares that I'm doing them no favours, can you?

 

3,171 and counting.

 

Tone

 

And failing to get the point, deliberately misrepresenting another persons post and respondiong with sarcasm are hardly the qualities if a good PR man.

Edited March 9, 2011 by David Schweizer

[canaldrifter]

And failing to get the point, deliberately misrepresenting another persons post and respondiong with sarcasm are hardly the qualities if a good PR man.

 

How many more times do I have to repeat it? I am not contributing to this thread as Nabo's PR man. And I am being no more, and a lot less, sarcastic than many other contributors to this forum on other threads.

 

Until the council meeting on Saturday Nabo doesn't have a PR rep, and they might not have one afterwards.

 

I am standing up for Nabo as best I can as an ordinary member. I might not be very good at that. In fact Chris Pink is doing a far better job and he isn't even a member.

 

If I was Nabo's PR rep I wouldn't be posting on this forum at all, because my words would be taken by some as Nabo policy just as they are now.

 

"I do not think Tony is doing a very good job but it seems a little harsh to judge the organisation by his words." #116 Chris Pink.

 

This thread has done one positive thing for Nabo. It has got folks thinking about it. Of that I am glad.

 

Going back over this thread, I am in no position to answer Carl's and David's main criticism of Nabo for two reasons. One, a list of past achievements would have to be drawn up through council as I haven't been involved for three or more years. If I do become PR rep that would be my first task.

 

Two, a mission statement, beyond what is already on the website, as suggested again by Chris Pink, would need the same input. I think I have tried to answer all the other lesser points Carl made otherwise.

 

Nothing much else is going to happen on the website now until the webmaster returns from abroad.

 

I never got a reply from Carl from my request in #51 "I would be most interested if you could state the criteria for a boaters' campaigning representative organisation that WOULD inspire you to join,.... with a projection of how that criteria might be achieved."

 

If he did respond to this I could offer it to council as a suggestion from a 'prospective' member. If he was a member he could do it himself.

 

Again, "I'm not asking them to provide me with anything, other than a convincing argument as to how they would represent me, as a member," Carl #53 can only be answered by council.

 

I haven't answered these points because I can't... yet.

 

Another aside from this thread. I am sure that discussion about its image will be firmly on the Nabo council's agenda for Saturday.

 

Tone

[ymu]

See Post #65, the only authoritative statement from a member of NABO council on this thread.

Sadly, that's part of the problem for me. Why can't there be any discussion outside of NABO council? How are people going to understand anything about the organisation if the organisation won't have discussions like this in public? Insisting that discussion only takes place at physical meetings automatically excludes anyone who can't physically/financially get to the meetings - which will be most of your potential membership.

 

I'm reminded of the annual 'away day' nonsense in my old department. The first one was mere rumblings of discontent, turning into an outpour of anger the following year at the way the department was being (mis)managed. So the boss decided that the next away day would be for senior staff only. Can't tell you what happened the year after that - everyone who was still there was too busy looking for other jobs to bother turning up.

 

Committees have a way of taking over from the membership, which is no good for an organisation which relies on an active membership to be effective. If there is no compelling reason to keep it private, it shouldn't be. If people feel involved and listened to, they will volunteer their time. If they feel like they're just being used to fund and legitimise someone's mini-fiefdom, they won't.

 

And I use the word 'feel' for a reason - truth is a nebulous concept in this sort of context. It doesn't matter what the 'truth' is - if people feel excluded they won't bother any more. And NABO's materials are peppered with stuff that feels very excluding. It might be different for members, but I have no way of knowing - all I've been told is that I'll have to join to find out, and that of those who have joined, not enough people are willing to volunteer their time.

[mayalld]

How many more times do I have to repeat it? I am not contributing to this thread as Nabo's PR man. And I am being no more, and a lot less, sarcastic than many other contributors to this forum on other threads.

 

Until the council meeting on Saturday Nabo doesn't have a PR rep, and they might not have one afterwards.

 

 

Well, given your track record of helping SOW with PR, and your total failure to portray the organisation in a good light here, NOT appointing you would be a rare sound decision from NABO.

 

[Does my opinion have more weight than Carl's? I am (until the SO doesn't get paid at the next renewal) still a member of NABO]

[sociable_hermit]

In my opinion, slightly biased, but only slightly I have no editorial input, I think that the magazine is leading the way in this respect and the website needs to catch up.

 

I put a link to the latest generally available copy of the magazine earlier. It is considered by many at NABO to be a breath of fresh air...

Agreed. It was seeing a copy of the magazine that made me interested in the first place - it's very good. I did tear off the membership form on the back but unfortunately it went through the washing machine in my pocket. So then I looked at the website and in comparison that looked a bit of a shambles TBH. That's no dig at the Webmaster who I'm sure has been trying to improve things. What I couldn't understand was why the editorial and design team for the magazine weren't contributing more material to the website to help the Webmaster out? It didn't seem like the same organisation working on it at all. Would I be right in thinking that the NABO Council has an ageing membership who don't fully appreciate the importance of such things, so the website has been something of an after-thought, and not particularly well supported?

 

P.S. I have noted your suggestion to join and get involved Chris, however I'm currently going self-employed and until I know I've got some money coming in, everything else will be on the back burner. I'm only on here now as a break from filling out forms!

[canaldrifter]

 

 

Committees have a way of taking over from the membership, which is no good for an organisation which relies on an active membership to be effective. If there is no compelling reason to keep it private, it shouldn't be. If people feel involved and listened to, they will volunteer their time. If they feel like they're just being used to fund and legitimise someone's mini-fiefdom, they won't.

 

not enough people are willing to volunteer their time.

 

Your two statements above would seem to highlight the main problem. Look at it the other way round. If people won't volunteer their time, then a truly democratic organisation cannot exist, and it ends up by being a committee led, otherwise passive, association. The 'truth' is, the few who do volunteer their time end up on the committee making the decisions and trying to represent the organisation on as many user groups as they can. The rest just go boating.

 

Going back about five or six years, Nabo held regular regional meetings. There are eight regions nationwide, and one 'rivers' category. Each has a regional rep who is approachable by any member, especially, but not just, in their own region. Those regional reps would bring issues to the central council meeting on a monthly basis. They would then feed back from council to individual members in the regions. Individual members can also attend any council meeting, and their views will be received.

 

As far as I know that still happens. If it doesn't then it should. But if it doesn't because members can't be bothered to go to meetings, then what do you suggest? An online forum like this one with the ability to vote? Is that the way forward? Or would that be too inconclusive?

 

Tone

 

Well, given your track record of helping SOW with PR, and your total failure to portray the organisation in a good light here, NOT appointing you would be a rare sound decision from NABO.

 

[Does my opinion have more weight than Carl's? I am (until the SO doesn't get paid at the next renewal) still a member of NABO]

 

I wondered how long it would be before you came to put the boot in Dave. I regret that even in my time on council your reputation was not good so I doubt that they would listen to you now. It would do me a great favour if they did.

 

Tone

[mayalld]

 

 

I wondered how long it would be before you came to put the boot in Dave. I regret that even in my time on council your reputation was not good so I doubt that they would listen to you now. It would do me a great favour if they did.

 

Tone

 

And that is the problem with NABO.

 

Anybody who dares to criticise the politburo has their opinion discounted.

 

In consequence, the entire membership whose opinion is counted agrees with the council.

[Albion]

snipped

As far as I know that still happens. If it doesn't then it should. But if it doesn't because members can't be bothered to go to meetings, then what do you suggest? An online forum like this one with the ability to vote? Is that the way forward? Or would that be too inconclusive?

 

Tone

 

I would have thought that a members only forum that would allow input from all who have access to a computer, but maybe can't/won't make the meetings, would be an excellent way to go. Then NABO can canvass more views than they are going to get from a member collaring a rep (if that system still exists). Whether the committee would wish to be constrained by an on-line vote, or just take cognisance of the views expressed, would have to be thrashed out first I guess.

The latter is a bit like our councillors and MPs I suppose. In theory they take account of our views and then we entrust them to make decisions taking account of our input.............however..........!!!!

Roger

[cotswoldsman]

 

 

 

 

 

I wondered how long it would be before you came to put the boot in Dave. I regret that even in my time on council your reputation was not good so I doubt that they would listen to you now. It would do me a great favour if they did.

 

Tone

 

I am a bit confused with this statement are you saying Nabo does not like criticism or are you saying it does not like criticism but you for one would welcome dave's input (criticism)

 

Think I have confused myself with this post!!

 

 

 

[David Schweizer]

I would have thought that a members only forum that would allow input from all who have access to a computer, but maybe can't/won't make the meetings, would be an excellent way to go. Then NABO can canvass more views than they are going to get from a member collaring a rep (if that system still exists). Whether the committee would wish to be constrained by an on-line vote, or just take cognisance of the views expressed, would have to be thrashed out first I guess.

The latter is a bit like our councillors and MPs I suppose. In theory they take account of our views and then we entrust them to make decisions taking account of our input.............however..........!!!!

Roger

But that is the essential point about Representaional Democracy. At least we all had the chance of voting for them, without having to attend a meeting half way across the Country. If NABO introduced a system which permitted members to either vote on line, or by post, the elected Council members could claim to have a mandate to represent us, but that seems far too radical a concept for our Tone to comprehend.

Edited March 9, 2011 by David Schweizer

[canaldrifter]

But that is the essential point about Representaional Democracy. At least we all had the chance of voting for them, without having to attend a meeting half way across the Country. If NABO introduced a system which permitted members to either vote on line, or by post, the elected Council members could claim to have a mandate to represent us, but that seems far too radical a concept for our Tone to comprehend.

 

Not at all. I asked the question. Thanks for the feed back. It is an interesting idea. I can put it to council and see if we could put it to the membership. It is the sort of constructive suggestion I have been asking for.

 

Tone

 

I am a bit confused with this statement are you saying Nabo does not like criticism or are you saying it does not like criticism but you for one would welcome dave's input (criticism)

 

Think I have confused myself with this post!!

 

I was being flippant in response to Dave's attack.... sorry. He seems to think that I want to be PR rep as some sort of ego trip. Not so. I'm willing to give up my time to try to help Nabo improve it's image, but if they were to take Dave's advice based on his personal opinion of me, and not ask me to be PR rep, then I would gladly concentrate on boating instead, like most other folks.

 

Tone