A grey area

[fender.]

But, i think its odd that you are about the most anti bridge hopper out there.

- And yet you've bearly even spent any time on the canal

 

I agree with you daniel!

Edited February 12, 2006 by fender.

[dor]

Fender, I agree with your comments, it is after after all quite easy to recognise common sense.

 

Maffi: As usual, you are missing the point. My comments are nothing to do with snobbery. But you frequently make judgements about boaters from a couple of thousand miles away, without really knowing what regular boating is about. My comments were not meant as a slap-down; just take a bit of time to consider views of people who are regularly boating, i.e. the majority of people who post on this site. It's not snobbery - in a few months you will ve part of it!

 

You are very fortunate to be in a position to have your own boat built, with the prospect to go boating for several years, and I wish you well in your new life; afte all, having spent many years in the Saudi desert you well deserve it. But please don't dismiss the views of long term regular boaters as "snobbery".

 

Can you really say that you are not going to find favorite spots which you might like to return to now and again?

[Maffi]

But, i think its odd that you are about the most anti bridge hopper out there.

- And yet you've bearly even spent any time on the canal

Charles Hadfield was a great writer on canals and their history. Robert Aickman, Frank Eyre, Tom Rolt and Charles were the founder members of the Inland Waterways Association. Robert, Frank, Tom and Charles were already putting out books about canals and their history when they formed the IWA in 1947, yet none of them except Tom Rolt had ever tillered a Narrow Boat.

So what's ya point.

 

 

 

Bridge Hoppers can do what they like. Nothing I can say will change them, but if I can influence one person to do the right thing then I should be allowed to do that.

[fender.]

Can you really say that you are not going to find favorite spots which you might like to return to now and again?

 

Dor I'm in agreement with you on this.

 

I am sure all of us have favourite spots that we return to every now and again. Its not a crime.

[Maffi]

Fender, I agree with your comments, it is after after all quite easy to recognise common sense.

 

Common sense is not universal! We all have different ideas of common sense, which is why people write down the rules.

 

You are very fortunate to be in a position to have your own boat built,

Well that one way of looking at it.

 

................but please don't dismiss the views of long term regular boaters as "snobbery".

I say as I see!

Can you really say that you are not going to find favorite spots which you might like to return to now and again?

 

There is a big difference between revisiting favourite places and dodging the ball.

[fender.]

So what's ya point.

Bridge Hoppers can do what they like. Nothing I can say will change them, but if I can influence one person to do the right thing then I should be allowed to do that.

 

This is a different thing altogether. Yes Rolt was the only one who had a nb (Cressy), and he lived on it most of the time. In those days one rarely had the opportunity to use the canals for leisure. Most of us today have a first hand expereince of the problem on the canal.

 

I know some bridge hoppers who want a mooring but cant get one. I also know that some moorers want to become cc'ers because they are fed-up being stuck in the same place. I also know that moorings are too expensive and that BW is operating a monoploy and there isnt really any chance for 'affordable' residential moorings. I think there should be something like this, after all I know one or two key workers who actually bridge hop and the moorings they want are well out of the range of their wage packets, so I cant really blame them for what they are doing even if it is what the rules prohibit.

 

I think BW needs to radically overhaul the whole licensing and mooring set-up, a totaly prices review, an effort to provide some affordable residential moorings, special moorings for key workers (such as hospital staff, police, fire, teachers and other essentail jobs) and more different types of licence to match the different situations etc etc.

Edited February 12, 2006 by fender.

[Maffi]

I am sure all of us have favourite spots that we return to every now and again. Its not a crime.

 

 

Oh for Christ sake no one said it was.

 

 

 

If my maid hadn't hidden my pistol I would seriously think of suicide.

 

This is a different thing altogether. Yes Rolt was the only one who had a nb (Cressy), and he lived on it most of the time. In those days one rarely had the opportunity to use the canals for leisure. Most of us today have a first hand expereince of the problem on the canal.

Makes no difference.

[lymmranger]

in my view LesD's question was a valid one - its plain common sense if someone practises boating in the way he describes. After all it is impossible not to return to a mooring every now and again (unless one decides to sail across the channel) Apart from that there is nothing more to discuss, those who hog moorings for months dont have a clue about the rules (or KNOW that BW is totally crap at this kinda game) and BW dont even have a clue about how to approach these people about their rule-breaking (because BW know its crap and it knows boaters know BW is crap so it dont bother) Discussing this any further is a mugs game. Anyone who has stayed on a mooring more than the limit without any good reason is without a doubt a bridge hopper. Isnt that clear enough guidance????? yes? no?

 

simple.... YES

 

....and I suspect the more vocal objectors are maybe a little guilty??????

 

...... I ........no for once I`ll leave it at that

[DHutch]

So what's ya point.

My point is, i wouldnt try and tell you how to deal with a saudi, how they would/should follow a rule, weather they where one side of a law, or the other.

- But yet you seam quite happy to talk about the finner points of CCing from a small building in the middle of a desart millions of miles away?

 

 

Daniel

[fender.]

simple.... YES

 

....and I suspect the more vocal objectors are maybe a little guilty??????

 

...... I ........no for once I`ll leave it at that

 

there are those who attempt to ignore the rules and there are those who try their best to act as the rules ask of them.

[Carrie]

Guilty ...innocent...

 

This and similar discussions will lead to future, stricter rules, hard enforcement of those rules, firmer limits drawn up and the subsequent policing of those rules. We are pushing ourselves into the very boxes many who take to the water, want to escape.

Is it because we spend so much of our lives fettered by petty rules (and no - I'm NOT talking about rules that help people stay safe and alive) that we cannot live confortably without them?!

 

Remember who will be making all the rules in the future. BW. They will be happy to make as many opportunities to impose fines as possible. And they have only to turn to our discussions on this forum to prove that 'boaters fully support the new regulations'. Eugene will no doubt be helping BW keep up to speed on the comments here. Or is it his deep love of boating that entices him onto the forum.

 

Therefore, the next time your engine fails or you have to stay an extra couple of days with a sick relative, you may find your boat 'clamped' (so to speak!) and a hefty fine.

 

People are not box-shaped. They have complex and complicated lives and up until now have been able to live the way they need to. At a time when so many other freedoms are being stealthily curtailed, I see the clock is ticking for people on the water - and it's ourselves who will be to blame.

[Sir Nibble]

The original question concerned a possible grey area in the rules. I'm in agreement with Maffi that the rules are simple. On the subject of returning to the same favourite spots, yea sure, we all do it, EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE GENUINE CC AND HAVE LONG SINCE LEFT THE AREA. So if you do often return to the same spot, you either have a permanent mooring within a convenient distance, or you are a bridge hopper.

Lots of the above looks like the arguments of someone who knows they are guilty and unable to argue innocence argue instead that the law is wrong. Unless you have a boat on a permanent mooring and spend a lot of time in a comparatively small area you just don't really know how bad the problem is. I'm sorry to say that I suspect that there are a few wannabe boaters on this forum looking to keep their options open to adopt this kind of behaviour when they get their own boats.

[Richard Bustens]

Well

I can not remember where i got the 12 month bit from, but i think it was from last year on the bridge hopping topic on hear.

 

I queried if it was ok for someone with a mooring to go to the boat on a friday night cruse to the pub that is 5 miles up the up the cut moor up for the w/end then go back to his mooring, then to repeat this the next w/end etc.

 

I feel that i was told that after i had spent 14 days there in about 6 or so weeks i could not go back till the next year.

[Sir Nibble]

There is no rule prohibiting frequent return to the same spot. You can go to the same place every weekend if you like. There is however a condition attatched to the issue of a cc licence that you should be engaged on "A progressive journey" so it is not possible to keep returning to the same place whilst also fulfilling the terms of a cc licence. If you have a permanent mooring the issue does not arise.

[Richard Bustens]

Snibble

 

I dont think you can stat more than 14 days in any sopt even though you have a mooring , except at the mooring,

[fender.]

There is no rule prohibiting frequent return to the same spot. You can go to the same place every weekend if you like. There is however a condition attatched to the issue of a cc licence that you should be engaged on "A progressive journey" so it is not possible to keep returning to the same place whilst also fulfilling the terms of a cc licence. If you have a permanent mooring the issue does not arise.

 

If you have a mooring you are bound by the same rules as a cc'er once you leave your home mooring. You cant go to Little Venice moorings and expect to stay more than the 14 days there in one year (eg to keep returning there over a number of weekends making it add up more than those 14 days.)

 

In essence if a home moorer uses up their mooring allocation in their home area then they have to go further afield. In many ways a home moorer is like a cc'er/bona fide cruiser. It is up to a home moorer then to stagger moorings or log the days they are on a mooring and know how many they have left or keep cruising to pastures anew.

 

I do a log that recordes every visitor mooring I have been to - if I stay more than 24 hours - so know how many days I have left if I do wish to return to any of these moorings.

[gringogordo]

I once got moved on by the EA (NOT BW) in the winter when I thought the mooring wasn't being used much (and in fact it wasn't but I didn't mind being moved all the same...) anyway my point is the moving on notice demanded that I moved on with 14 days and that I then didn't return for 14 days. I can't remember the actual rule, but there was certainly no attempt to stop people going back to the same mooring each weekend as long as they moved in between (a lot of the old 'captains' on their plastic yacths used to moor outside Tescos every saturday and whine about people who they percieved to have been there all week... !)

[Carrie]

Snibble - your thinly-veiled, barbed comments about 'wannabe boaters' are clearly aimed at me.

Once again, you jump to silly conclusions about who I am and what I do. Why would saying this kind of discussion will only lead to stricter rules and inflexibility mean I, personally, intend breaking existing rules?!?

I sincerely hope to not run in to 'wannabe policemen' on the canals. And yes - that means you Snibble.

[Richard Bustens]

Fender

Make your mind up back a bit you were saying i was making up the not returning in 12 months, now you are quoting it yourself.

[Pat]

Hi everyone,

I really think some of you need to relax a bit. One of the great things about boating is that rules are not always meticulously enforced. Yes, some people abuse the system. do they really harm you? How often are you really prevented from mooring somewhere because of bogus CCers?

I personally am far more bothered by strict, rule book quoting vigilante pedants that slow down to check my license is displayed correctly, than a few ccres.

Really don't want to have a go at anyone, but I think some of you need to start enjoying yourselves more and worrying less about what others do or don't do.

Pat

[fender.]

Fender

Make your mind up back a bit you were saying i was making up the not returning in 12 months, now you are quoting it yourself.

 

There is NO 12 MONTH rule Richard. Now stop accusing me! You dont know anything!

 

Some mooring sites stipulate that a total of x days can only be used within ONE year. EG some places say a total of 14 days in any one calendar year. It dont mean you cant return within one year, but it does mean that you cant use up those 14 days and expect to come back again and again within that one year. It does mean that you can use say 7 days then go away and come back later and use another 7 days and then after that you cant stop anymore because you have used up your allocation. How people use their allocation is not up to me, its up to their discretion and common sense, but it doesnt mean that they cant come back within the one year if they have not used up their total alloaction.

Edited February 13, 2006 by fender.

[Maffi]

My point is, i wouldn't try and tell you how to deal with a saudi, how they would/should follow a rule, weather they where one side of a law, or the other.

- But yet you seam quite happy to talk about the finner points of CCing from a small building in the middle of a desert millions of miles away?

Daniel

 

You would if you spent three years studying Saudi's.

 

Daniel

 

You are far more knowledgeable about canals than me, but I am catching you up fast.

 

You are far more experienced on the water but that imbalance will change.

 

No I do not 'talk about the finer point of CCing' I, that is we, were talking about the rules and peoples interpretation of them which I could do from a rock on the moon.

 

OK so I don't own a boat, but then taking that to conclusion neither do you or for that matter many, many holiday boaters. Is their opinion any less valid?

 

I only manage to get to the UK for about six weeks of the year, most of which is spent on the towpath somewhere. I have eyes to see and I see lots. I know when I see a boat if I have seen it before. I know if the pile of collected rubbish next to a boat has grown. I am perfectly capable of using 'my common sense' to determine if what I see is right or wrong. And I can see an out of date licence at 25 meters since I had my eyes done.

 

Come the end of May boating is going to be my whole life. I don't think it can be argued that I am not fully committed to this. Had I waited until I had actually taken delivery of my boat before I bothered to learn anything you would now be using that as an argument why I shouldn't comment. I have every right to comment on things that will and do affect my life. Owning a boat is not a pre-requisite. Even if it was my intention to never own a boat I now know more than enough about canals and boats to write several books.

 

You argument is Vacuous.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Maffi

[Sir Nibble]

your thinly-veiled, barbed comments about 'wannabe boaters' are clearly aimed at me.

If the cap fits.....

There is an argument to be made in favour of anarchy, but not one that stands up to scrutiny.

 

your thinly-veiled, barbed comments about 'wannabe boaters' are clearly aimed at me.

If the cap fits.....

There is an argument to be made in favour of anarchy, but not one that stands up to scrutiny.

I sincerely hope to not run in to 'wannabe policemen' on the canals.

If I get you into trouble by telling lies, shame on me. If I get you into trouble by telling the truth, shame on you.

[Richard Bustens]

en explain this comment you made Fender

 

If you have a mooring you are bound by the same rules as a cc'er once you leave your home mooring. You cant go to Little Venice moorings and expect to stay more than the 14 days there in one year (eg to keep returning there over a number of weekends making it add up more than those 14 days.)

[Carrie]

If I get you into trouble by telling lies, shame on me. If I get you into trouble by telling the truth, shame on you.

 

Oh dear! What an unpleasant little man. I will continue to be the law-abiding person I have always been. And I guess you must continue ..er.. being you.