Best batteries?

[Pretty Funked Up]

My fuel bill is much higher - I have no solar panels.

 

Just did a few calculations. If the Odyssey batteries accept much higher currents than a cheap battery they would reduce engine run times significantly. But not enough to justify the high price.

 

My fuel bill is pretty mush the same as Chris' above (I do have solar). Continuously using 12v (laptop, fridge and freezer)

The 2 hawkers (2ndhand) i just put in the bank have made a huge difference. Can we concluded that some of the thought to be 'over priced, standard batteries with the word leisure on em' are actually worth the extra money? or is it still too soon

[Gibbo]

Update

 

The Hawker battery, now it's settled down and got rid of its "newness" is showing a consistent charge efficiency of 90%. Not as good as it was, but still excellent.

 

And this turned out to be a measurement error. It's actually around 95%

 

(remember this device is still undergoing testing and development!)

 

Lets just say that I was there at the conception.

 

Ha! Now I get you!

[Robin2]

My fuel bill is pretty mush the same as Chris' above (I do have solar). Continuously using 12v (laptop, fridge and freezer)

The 2 hawkers (2ndhand) i just put in the bank have made a huge difference. Can we concluded that some of the thought to be 'over priced, standard batteries with the word leisure on em' are actually worth the extra money? or is it still too soon

 

Interpret please ...

[Chris Pink]

My fuel bill is pretty mush the same as Chris' above (I do have solar). Continuously using 12v (laptop, fridge and freezer)

The 2 hawkers (2ndhand) i just put in the bank have made a huge difference. Can we concluded that some of the thought to be 'over priced, standard batteries with the word leisure on em' are actually worth the extra money? or is it still too soon

 

Where did you source your batteries?

[Pretty Funked Up]

Where did you source your batteries?

 

good ol flea bay

Ive alrady emailed the guy to let me know if any more come up b4 he ebays em.

I already mentioned the second hand, 5yr old, hawkers out perform the lorry FLAs even when they were new.

(taking charge, holding charge and delivering power)

 

I wonder what brand new ones are like

Edited January 20, 2011 by Pretty Funked Up

[Gibbo]

Final results.

 

The (was) brand new battery has now done around 125 cycles to 10.5 volts at various (wildly different) currents. It is showing a capacity of 125ahrs (20hr rate - datasheet states 120ahrs) and a charge efficiency of 98.0%

 

The older one (I don't know how many cycles it has done as it was already used when I got it - it was removed from a vehicle I believe - but I've cycled it about 75 times) is showing a capacity of 120ahrs (20hr rate) and a charge efficiency of 97.0% to 97.5% - it seems to alternate between cycles. I suspect it's actually 97.25% and the measuring device is alternating between the two (this would be expected from the algorithm used).

 

The charge efficiencies are average figures being higher at low charge currents and lower at high charge currents. Not by a huge amount, about 1% either side.

 

Peukert's exponent calculates out at 1.15 which is nice and low, as it should be for an AGM.

 

Those charge efficiency figures are truly astounding. Peukert's exponent is also extremely good and agrees with that extracted from the info in the datasheet.

[nb Innisfree]

I feel inadequate and dissatisfied now with my old AGMs

[Robin2]

Final results.

 

<snip>

 

Those charge efficiency figures are truly astounding. Peukert's exponent is also extremely good and agrees with that extracted from the info in the datasheet.

 

Have you equivalent figures for a cheap leisure battery to help us judge how much extra the Hawker batteries are worth?

[Gibbo]

Have you equivalent figures for a cheap leisure battery to help us judge how much extra the Hawker batteries are worth?

 

I have figures for leisure batteries but they were arrived at by a different method so it might not be valid to compare them. With this setup I don't yet have an absolutely definitive figure but I have a leisure battery on test right this minute. The charge efficiency figure doesn't just "get done" as that results in a figure which jumps around too much depending up on how the batteries were treated on the last cycle. Instead they are arrived at by convergence and averaging. This gives a better overall picture of exactly how they are performing in the current installation (which at the end of the day is all that matters). The one on test has 2 channels running on the same battery. One was manually set to 95%, the other manually set to 85%

 

The one at 95% is slowly working its way down, the one at 85% is slowly working its way up. So I can say with certainty that the final figure is going to be somwhere between 85% and 95%

 

The charge/discharge cycles were designed to approximate typical battery useage in boats/vehicles/RVs etc.

[Robin2]

I have figures for leisure batteries ...

 

<snip>

 

 

The fact that the Hawker battery capacity still exceeded its official specification after 125 cycles also seems important.

 

Will you have that information for the leisure battery in due course?

[Gibbo]

The fact that the Hawker battery capacity still exceeded its official specification after 125 cycles also seems important.

 

Will you have that information for the leisure battery in due course?

 

LOL yes

 

It says 90ahrs on the label. The "man in the shop" said he'd tested them and they were actually closer to 100ahr. Bollocks.

 

It was 85ahrs from new. Within 5 (or maybe 6 - I don't have the data handy atm) cycles to 10.5 volts (similar to what the Hawkers have been getting) it was down to 60ahrs.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Gibbo

[Pretty Funked Up]

Can you ask the powers that be to send you a Rolls battery to try and break?

[Gibbo]

Can you ask the powers that be to send you a Rolls battery to try and break?

 

I doubt it. The reason these Hawkers have been such a large part of this development is that most of the customers for the device are using these particular batteries. I've also done some work on it with various standard types of batteries (such as a "generic" leisure and so on) for comparative reasons and to ensure that the device doesn't end up being locked to one battery type.

 

Rolls really have a tiny market share in Europe and I've never come across them in any of the commercial markets.

[Robin2]

LOL yes

 

It says 90ahrs on the label. The "man in the shop" said he'd tested them and they were actually closer to 100ahr. Bollocks.

 

It was 85ahrs from new. Within 5 (or maybe 6 - I don't have the data handy atm) cycles to 10.5 volts (similar to what the Hawkers have been getting) it was down to 60ahrs.

 

That raises so many questions it's hard to know where to start. I'll try to ration myself.

 

1. 
    
   
2. Can you name the make of leisure battery, or, if not, can you say if it is typical of the cheap leisure batteries on sale in chandleries?
   
3. As everyone says not to discharge below 50% is the test too harsh for that type of battery? I imagine most people would be content to know that a 100Ah battery could deliver (say) 50Ah X number of times.
   
4. Should we look at the price of cheap 100Ah leisure batteries and say to ourselves "well, I'm really only getting 50Ah for that money"?
   
5. If I buy a cheap 100Ah battery that only has a capacity of 85Ah wouldn't I be entitled to my money back?
   

Edited January 21, 2011 by Robin2

[Gibbo]

Can you name the make of leisure battery, or, if not, can you say if it is typical of the cheap leisure batteries on sale in chandleries?

 

It's a Yuasa L36-90. And yes it's typical of cheap leisure batteries. I reckon I could have grabbed any "leisure" battery on the shelf and the results would have been exactly the same so this shouldn't really be taken as a direct pop at Yuasa. Though another member on here would say it should be after his experience.

 

As everyone says not to discharge below 50% is the test too harsh for that type of battery? I imagine most people would be content to know that a 100Ah battery could deliver (say) 50Ah X number of times.

 

On batteries sold for use as cycling batteries (as opposed to engine starting) all one achieves by running the test down 0% is speeding up the test results. If battery A survives cycles down to 0% 3 times more than battery B does, then battery A will also survive 3 times as many cycles to 50%. It's a pretty straight comparison.

 

Should we look at the price of cheap 100Ah leisure batteries and say to ourselves "well, I'm really only getting 50Ah for that money"?

 

Doesn't really make any difference how you look at it. Take these Hawkers. If they survive (say) 1000 cycles to 0% (which wouldn't surprise me the way things are going) then they'd survive a damned site more only going to 50%. The ratio between 0% and 50% number of cycles would be about the same for any battery (excluding engine start).

 

If I buy a cheap 100Ah battery that only has a capacity of 85Ah wouldn't I be entitled to my money back?

 

(it's actually marked as 90ahr not 100ahr)

 

I would say almost certainly. But try and prove it.

[Pretty Funked Up]

I would say almost certainly. But try and prove it.

 

My matey with the elecsol carbon fibre jobbies just got new on warranty (2yrs old) 5 yr warranty. Independent battery place, tested it mnay times before it failed and they (elecsol) sent a new one.

[Robin2]

It's a Yuasa L36-90. And yes it's typical ...

 

<snip>

 

 

Thanks for a very comprehensive answer.

[blackrose]

I'm not sure if the answer to my question is in this thread somewhere as I haven't read every post, but I didn't want to start a new thread.

 

I was led to believe that in general open lead/acid batteries offered the best performance in terms of getting amps in and out because they could be charged at a higer voltage than sealed batteries, and also that they were a bit more tolerant of abuse.

 

Firstly is/was that correct, and if so has the technology of any form of sealed battery improved to the extent that they now out-perform lead/acid batteries? Besides the unavailable (and unaffordable) military batteries, which type of sealed batteries are the best (AGM, Gel, etc)?

Edited February 6, 2011 by blackrose

[Pretty Funked Up]

I guess its still too early to tell.

 

I spent just under 3 yrs on open FLAs and they werent tolerant to abuse and cost £70ea. brand new (110Ah @20hr rate)

I'm now playing about with sealed hawker powersafes which were £70ea. 2nd hand (92Ah @10hr rate)

Straight away I noticed that, even though they are 2nd hand, they hold a higher charge for longer than the open FLAs ever did when new.

 

Several months in now (well 3) and they are still as the day I received them, very happy. Quite often wake up to 12.7v!!

However these are powersafes and pricey to buy new and I cant really comment on VFM as I got em on ebay at around half price.

 

According to Gibbos early testing Hawker seem to under rate their batts (unlike most manufacturers who are a bit optimistic with their claimed capacity)

 

Let me do the summer with them yet. With all the extra abuse they'll get (parties, music, freezer trying to stay frozen when boat @30degrees) that should show whether they are worth the dollar or not

 

Has Gibbo managed to 'break' the hawker he was testing yet? (or given up trying?)

Edited February 8, 2011 by Pretty Funked Up

[Nickhlx]

I guess its still too early to tell.

 

I spent just under 3 yrs on open FLAs and they werent tolerant to abuse and cost £70ea. brand new (110Ah @20hr rate)

I'm now playing about with sealed hawker powersafes which were £70ea. 2nd hand (92Ah @10hr rate)

Straight away I noticed that, even though they are 2nd hand, they hold a higher charge for longer than the open FLAs ever did when new.

 

Several months in now (well 3) and they are still as the day I received them, very happy. Quite often wake up to 12.7v!!

However these are powersafes and pricey to buy new and I cant really comment on VFM as I got em on ebay at around half price.

 

According to Gibbos early testing Hawker seem to under rate their batts (unlike most manufacturers who are a bit optimistic with their claimed capacity)

 

Has Gibbo managed to 'break' the hawker he was testing yet? (or given up trying?)

 

 

 

Superb news ( and inadvertent marketing for Hawker probably)

 

 

Nick

 

 

[Gibbo]

Has Gibbo managed to 'break' the hawker he was testing yet? (or given up trying?)

 

I never give up, and I usually succeed.

 

After around 250 cycles down to 10.5 volts, this Hawker is now down to 110ahr capacity.

 

That is, in my experience, truly astounding. A leisure battery wouldn't have got even close to that many cycles (the last one I did was reduced from 85ahrs to 60ahrs after 5 such cycles), and even an expensive "proper" deep cycle wet cell would probably have lost about 25% capacity by now (as opposed to around 8%).

 

They remain, to date, the best batteries I have ever tested.

 

I'm not sure if the answer to my question is in this thread somewhere as I haven't read every post, but I didn't want to start a new thread.

 

I was led to believe that in general open lead/acid batteries offered the best performance in terms of getting amps in and out because they could be charged at a higer voltage than sealed batteries, and also that they were a bit more tolerant of abuse.

 

Firstly is/was that correct, and if so has the technology of any form of sealed battery improved to the extent that they now out-perform lead/acid batteries? Besides the unavailable (and unaffordable) military batteries, which type of sealed batteries are the best (AGM, Gel, etc)?

 

Only just seen this.

 

At the budget end of the battery market there's no question that open cells are better.

 

The "being charged at a higher voltage" is incorrect. Calcium based sealed batteries need a higher voltage than open cells. Modern AGMs also need a higher charge voltage.

 

Also, charging at a voltage higher than the gassing point doesn't charge the batteries up faster. You can sometime measure more current going in, but that current doesn't charge the batteries, it just boils the water away and warms the batteries up.

[pieter]

 

 

At the budget end of the battery market there's no question that open cells are better.

 

The "being charged at a higher voltage" is incorrect. Calcium based sealed batteries need a higher voltage than open cells. Modern AGMs also need a higher charge voltage.

 

Also, charging at a voltage higher than the gassing point doesn't charge the batteries up faster. You can sometime measure more current going in, but that current doesn't charge the batteries, it just boils the water away and warms the batteries up.

 

Does this mean that a B2B charger (like Sterling) which relies on a higher voltage isn't really that effective? I thought of getting one (for a motorhome, sorry, just spying here), until I noticed that my alternator voltage isn't much lower than what the Sterling supplies. But looking at your comment, even the slightly higher voltage, whic would take the battery into gassing, wouldn't help much.

[Tony Brooks]

Does this mean that a B2B charger (like Sterling) which relies on a higher voltage isn't really that effective? I thought of getting one (for a motorhome, sorry, just spying here), until I noticed that my alternator voltage isn't much lower than what the Sterling supplies. But looking at your comment, even the slightly higher voltage, whic would take the battery into gassing, wouldn't help much.

 

 

I trust Gibbo will forgive me for jumping in here.

 

In my view it will not help much with a modern (14.4V charging) alternator and a good charging circuit & charge splitter. In fact my car charges at about 14.8 volts as standard (I think it has to do with electrical power steering and Lead calcium batteries). If one makes a significant difference it is probably telling you that the charging circuit etc. is deficient in some way.

 

There are so many boats with absolutely atrocious charging systems and also ones with old 13.8 to 14.2 volt alternators it has given such devices as the B2B some credibility. If you are fitting it as a way of splitting the charge then so well and good (but I bet a good split charge relay would be far cheaper) but if it is simply to try to speed up the charging I suspect you will be disappointed.

 

A caveat in this on vehicles is that I have heard that some of the very modern vehicles with ECU controlled charging for maximum economy/vehicle performance have problems with more convention add ons. I think this may be just apply to those that boost the volatge to both battery banks but am not sure. I think the B2B and A2B were developed to overcome this.

[John R]

I never give up, and I usually succeed.

 

After around 250 cycles down to 10.5 volts, this Hawker is now down to 110ahr capacity.

 

That is, in my experience, truly astounding. A leisure battery wouldn't have got even close to that many cycles (the last one I did was reduced from 85ahrs to 60ahrs after 5 such cycles), and even an expensive "proper" deep cycle wet cell would probably have lost about 25% capacity by now (as opposed to around 8%).

 

They remain, to date, the best batteries I have ever tested.

 

 

As I said in an earlier post - these are the best batteries there are bar none. The internal technology is unique to Enersys / Hawker and very different to anything else in the important details that matter. They are however exspensive and probably way beyond cost effective for a boat supply but similar technology is available in Hawker XFC and Enersys Odyssey blocs.

If you can get one suggest you try an XFC bloc - you may get somewhere close to comparable results

[pieter]

I trust Gibbo will forgive me for jumping in here.

 

In my view it will not help much with a modern (14.4V charging) alternator and a good charging circuit & charge splitter. In fact my car charges at about 14.8 volts as standard (I think it has to do with electrical power steering and Lead calcium batteries). If one makes a significant difference it is probably telling you that the charging circuit etc. is deficient in some way.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions. On the motorhome forum I read many people swear by B2B chargers, but I also came to the conclusion that the advantage mainly holds true for older alternators.

 

Hadn't heard about issues with modern ECU managed engines.