Leeds & Liverpool maximum length

[Peter Bell]

There seems to be confusion between different BW websites about the maximum length of boat that can use the Leeds & Liverpool canal between Wigan and Leeds.

On waterscape.com, the L&L 'boater's guide' says the maximum is only 60 ft.

But an apparently authoritative BW survey at http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/images/C..._tcm6-71620.pdf

says the maximum is 62 ft.

The confusion isn't confined to BW.

Nicholsons 2003 says 60ft,

while Jim Shead's excellent website says 62 ft, as does Nick Atty's brilliant Canalplanner site.

For myself and my wife, this really matters because we're planning to fulfil a long-standing ambition

this summer and cross the Pennines on the L&L - and our boat is a 62ft trad.

If anyone out there has practical experience that might help - or authoritative information,

I'd be hugely grateful to hear about it.

Cheers,

Peter Bell

[MikeV]

There seems to be confusion between different BW websites about the maximum length of boat that can use the Leeds & Liverpool canal between Wigan and Leeds.

 

I believe the difference depends on whether there are one or two boats in the wide locks. If there is one boat in the lock then you can position it on the diagonal and gain that extra couple of feet.

 

I did the centre section of the L&L from Foulridge tunnel to Shipley in a hire boat a couple of years ago. It was a 60ft boat and I don't recall any lock being particularly tight.

 

The only thing to be prepared for is the amount of water that comes through the lock gates on the Bingley Five. It was a cruiser stern boat, and going down there so much water was coming over the stern and through the deckboards into the engine compartment that the engine stopped in a big cloud of steam. Fortunately it was during the summer and so the helmsman (me) only got a wet pair of shorts.

 

Mike

[tony collins]

There seems to be confusion between different BW websites about the maximum length of boat that can use the Leeds & Liverpool canal between Wigan and Leeds.

 

 

 

I have a feeling that Owen & Iris Bryce took their 65ft boat "Bix" along that way. I think they recounted their activities in one of their books, I guess it is "Canals are my World" But I understand that they had to go diagonal AND remove fenders front and rear.

 

Tony

Edited January 7, 2006 by tony collins

[Keeping Up]

I have a feeling that Owen & Iris Bryce took their 65ft boat "Bix" along that way. I think they recounted their activities in one of their books, I guess it is "Canals are my World" But I understand that they had to go diagonal AND remove fenders front and rear.

 

Tony

I just can't believe you can get 65ft all the way through there. Although I'd love to be proved wrong.

 

We went through in 'Thistle' which was only 58'6", and we never had to remove the fenders, but there was never that much to spare.

 

It's worth noting that in some locks, diagonally is not always the best way because the cill is very strongly curved. The best way sometimes is to have the boat in the centre of the lock, with the bow between the gates and the stern in the centre of the (curved) cill. Diagonally you'll get the lock emptied but may not be able to open the gate to get out.

 

We did have the problem as mentioned about the leaky locks. Coming down the Wigan flight we were breasted with another boat so stopped the engine. The water went up the exhaust and filled up one cylineder throug the exhaust valve. Luckily being an SR3 we were able to open the decompressor and thus turn the engine over and start (spitting water out the top). The engine ran as an SR1 for the next hundred miles (we'd burned out the exhaust valve on one other cylinder when trying to beat the tide at Keadby) then coughed and became an SR2 again. It didn't become an SR3 until we reached Braunston and had the head taken off.

 

Allan

[Paul Evans]

For myself and my wife, this really matters because we're planning to fulfil a long-standing ambition

this summer and cross the Pennines on the L&L - and our boat is a 62ft trad. If anyone out there has practical experience that might help - or authoritative information, I'd be hugely grateful to hear about it.

It's some time since I used the L&L but I can tell you that a 62' boat will not sit along the wall and allow you to close the gates (going up) or avoid hanging up (going down). You will need to put the boat into locks diagonally and even then it will be a tight fit and you will need to be very, very careful about the way you operate them. In particular, keep any "helping hands" well away from the paddle gear!

 

Personally, I would not attempt it in anything over 57'. My advice would be - hang the expense and hire a boat that fits properly.

[Guest]

It's some time since I used the L&L but I can tell you that a 62' boat will not sit along the wall and allow you to close the gates (going up) or avoid hanging up (going down). You will need to put the boat into locks diagonally and even then it will be a tight fit and you will need to be very, very careful about the way you operate them. In particular, keep any "helping hands" well away from the paddle gear!

 

Personally, I would not attempt it in anything over 57'. My advice would be - hang the expense and hire a boat that fits properly.

 

A man on our marina has a 62ft. He reports exactly the same, diagonal only on Wigan flight (the lock keepers aparently tried to stop him going up last year). I think he is OK on rest of LandL though.

[gaggle]

the nicholsan guide says bw have an excellent guide to l&l free of charge 01282 456978 central office enquiries-leedsliverpool@britishwaterways.co.uk

it also gives lengths liverpool to wigan and leigh branch 72 ft and wigan to leeds 60 ft,helped set the lock yesterday for nb duke 70ft 6ins it was against the wall and i would say it had the 18 inchs to spare.

diagonal would probably have given extra above the 72 ft stated in guide.

[GRPCruiserman]

Dont forget only 60ft if you want to go down the Rufford Branch to Tarleton, not 62.

[fender.]

the nicholsan guide says bw have an excellent guide to l&l free of charge 01282 456978 central office enquiries-leedsliverpool@britishwaterways.co.uk

it also gives lengths liverpool to wigan and leigh branch 72 ft and wigan to leeds 60 ft,helped set the lock yesterday for nb duke 70ft 6ins it was against the wall and i would say it had the 18 inchs to spare.

diagonal would probably have given extra above the 72 ft stated in guide.

 

I always understood it was 72 ft from Liverpool to Wigan. This topic was discussed last year and it seems 62' is ok above Wigan:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2223

[Guest]

I always understood it was 72 ft from Liverpool to Wigan. This topic was discussed last year and it seems 62' is ok above Wigan:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2223

 

I have never had a 62ft boat but I understand there are two locks on Wigan flight that cause problems for this size. I know of one person who said his 60ft was a nightmare up Wigan due to the poor condition of the locks;"never again" he said!

[gaggle]

I have never had a 62ft boat but I understand there are two locks on Wigan flight that cause problems for this size. I know of one person who said his 60ft was a nightmare up Wigan due to the poor condition of the locks;"never again" he said!

never again is what the son in law said when i offered him a weekend on the boat,up the flight one day and down the next.it were right funny watching him doing all the work.

[Guest]

never again is what the son in law said when i offered him a weekend on the boat,up the flight one day and down the next.it were right funny watching him doing all the work.

A baptism of fire?! Believe it or not my wife and kids love doing the flight

[Nige]

It's some time since I used the L&L but I can tell you that a 62' boat will not sit along the wall and allow you to close the gates (going up) or avoid hanging up (going down). You will need to put the boat into locks diagonally and even then it will be a tight fit and you will need to be very, very careful about the way you operate them. In particular, keep any "helping hands" well away from the paddle gear!

 

Personally, I would not attempt it in anything over 57'. My advice would be - hang the expense and hire a boat that fits properly.

 

Hi Folks,

If I may, I have to at least partially disagree with this comment - no disrespect intended.

 

My permanent mooring is on the Leeds and Liverpool near Bridge 159 at Thornton in Craven (about 5 miles from Skipton). I can totally vouch for the section between Lower Park marina at Barnoldswick and bridge 160....or is it 158 as you head towards Skipton - I never can remember). ANYWAY- my boat Discovery is 62 feet long and I have no trouble whatsoever with the locks on this section. Locking down I have a good 10 foot or so between the end of my rudder and the cill of the locks, this being with the bows just gently touching the other end lock gates. I do not have to sit diagonally in the lock. Locking up is a little tighter, but certainly nothing to worry about.

 

Not having navigated any other sections yet - I can't vouch for those and defer to those who have been there and done it with big boats !!!

[DHutch]

Personally, I would not attempt it in anything over 57'. My advice would be - hang the expense and hire a boat that fits properly.

I dont remember it beeing all that tight on the wigan flight, or the rufford branch.

- Where about 58ft, 59ft with fenders. So not huge, but over 57

[TimYoung]

Our shortboat Severn is 14'3" wide by 62' long. It was built in 1936 to the maximum size the locks will pass east of Wigan. The locks west of Wigan take the same width but 72' long. The longer length is the size of boat that could trade between Liverpool, Manchester and Runcorn. The Rufford branch is shortboat length.

 

Tim

Edited January 10, 2006 by TimYoung

[Liam]

As I was reading this post I was thinking hmm.. Leeds & Liverpool Longboats, such as Ambush, 72ft which obviously can't go that way.

 

But.. there's the L&L short boats, which were 62ft, and built to fit that route.. so they must be able to take a barge 62ft in length and you definately can't put one of those buggers vertically in a lock.

 

Tim, would I be saying that your boat's based at Lorenz just by the tank? I pass it quite regularly going to and coming home from my sisters.

[GRPCruiserman]

Our shortboat Severn is 14'3" wide by 62' long. It was built in 1936 to the maximum size the locks will pass east of Wigan. The locks west of Wigan take the same width but 72' long. The longer length is the size of boat that could trade between Liverpool, Manchester and Runcorn. The Rufford branch is shortboat length.

 

Tim

 

I find your information most interesting, but makes me think geometrically.

 

The 62 foot length of your boat will be point to point so to speak, wont it? Does your boat have a curved stern or a flat one? I am only thinking that your boat may be 62 foot long, but because of her beam, if the stern is curved, this would then facilitate the 'swing' of the gates as the close behind you coming up, or open in front of you going down the lock. Also if you have a curved stern, does this match the curve of the cill on your way down when it is behind you?

 

Either way, it would suggest that a 62 foot narrowboat should actually sit in the centre of the lock with it's bow on the cill coming up, and the transom in the centre of the cill going down? It would then mean that a 62 foot narrowboat could not share with another boat. I suppose for safety the boat could move towards the lower gates once they were closed to avoid being caught on the cill going down, then reverse back onto the cill to open the gates or swing clear of the closed gate if the opposite one were then opened.

 

It is interesting to hear that the Rufford Arm is actually 62 foot, as I am sure it has been quoted as only 60 on many occasions. I wonder if this is selective sizing for whatever reason. Perhaps it was for turning purposes at Tarleton or something, but they could always lock down then turn on the river, tides permitting of course.

 

I can imagine a narrowboat steerer getting wet feet in any locks with leaky top gates going down!!

 

[Liam]

The shortboats are identical to the longboats.. only 10ft shorter. They have a rounded transom, with a pretty large rudder hanging off the stern.

 

When I went to Preston Docks, there was a Shortboat with us, and we went via the Rufford Arm so it MUST fit.

 

I can't remember what boat it was, but was painted in the BW colours and was rather a smart boat.

[TimYoung]

As I was reading this post I was thinking hmm.. Leeds & Liverpool Longboats, such as Ambush, 72ft which obviously can't go that way.

 

But.. there's the L&L short boats, which were 62ft, and built to fit that route.. so they must be able to take a barge 62ft in length and you definately can't put one of those buggers vertically in a lock.

 

Tim, would I be saying that your boat's based at Lorenz just by the tank? I pass it quite regularly going to and coming home from my sisters.

 

Liam,

 

That's the one. It was green and oxide, now it's blue and grey. Built by Pimblott's on the Weaver.

 

Tim

 

GRPCruiserman

 

There is actually something a bit odd about the Tarleton locks in that they vary wildly in length.

The ruling length is 62' but the longest is 67' and a couple are 64'

 

Tim

[Smelly]

The thing about both Tarleton and Wigan is subsidence. They might have built the locks at Wigan for 62' boats however they've subsided due to mining underneath; some of the gates are visibly leaning down the hill, hence they might have got shorter, they're definitely very heavy to work because of this.

 

At Tarleton some locks I believe have been rebuilt due to some wise arse's idea of building a canal on rafts made of bales of cotton over a marsh... hence they've become a bit bow backed. I'd be worried about accepting the length of the lock as visible from above as the length of the chamber at the bottom... be ye wary. however having previously been 72' I've only ever turned locks on this section and haven't been throught the locks so wouldn't be able to say with any authority.

 

On a similar note though, I went up Beeston Iron Lock on a breasted pair a couple of years ago, so long as you stay at the back and aren't too hogged you'll make it... just. Wouldn't have tried it without local knowledge, and would extend exactly that piece of wisdom regarding the Wigan flght, oh, and if you're going up diagonally be very cautious of the paddle riser bars as they're quite slack and will pinch yer rudder (oh err missus) if you're not careful.

 

Are they still doing assisted passages up Wigan so the greenies can beat the pirates off? Might be worth ringing 'em and asking...

 

Tim, was it "Pauline"?

[Guest]

The thing about both Tarleton and Wigan is subsidence. They might have built the locks at Wigan for 62' boats however they've subsided due to mining underneath; some of the gates are visibly leaning down the hill, hence they might have got shorter, they're definitely very heavy to work because of this.

 

At Tarleton some locks I believe have been rebuilt due to some wise arse's idea of building a canal on rafts made of bales of cotton over a marsh... hence they've become a bit bow backed. I'd be worried about accepting the length of the lock as visible from above as the length of the chamber at the bottom... be ye wary. however having previously been 72' I've only ever turned locks on this section and haven't been throught the locks so wouldn't be able to say with any authority.

 

On a similar note though, I went up Beeston Iron Lock on a breasted pair a couple of years ago, so long as you stay at the back and aren't too hogged you'll make it... just. Wouldn't have tried it without local knowledge, and would extend exactly that piece of wisdom regarding the Wigan flght, oh, and if you're going up diagonally be very cautious of the paddle riser bars as they're quite slack and will pinch yer rudder (oh err missus) if you're not careful.

 

Are they still doing assisted passages up Wigan so the greenies can beat the pirates off? Might be worth ringing 'em and asking

Tim, was it "Pauline"?

They still assist.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Guest

[TimYoung]

Smelly,

 

Pauline is at Bedford basin in Leigh. It's a tad smaller than a shortboat at 57'6" by,I think, 13'10".

It was built for the Calder and Hebble as a horseboat. It's incredibly old like 1860. Motorised in the 30's.

 

Paul and Gabrielle Lorenz, its keepers, boated it to the continent for 5 years or so. The outward trip took 40 hours in the briny deep. They came back on a lorry!.

 

Severn has always been Severn, it just changes colour. Its the one on the right on the little picture.

 

Tim

 

p.s. Beware Beeston Iron as it has moved inwards again over the last year or so. That which once would fit may not do so now.

Edited February 14, 2006 by TimYoung

[Smelly]

that'll teach me to read posts properly!

[GRPCruiserman]

They still assist.

 

To a certain extent!! What I mean is:

 

Some years ago, I booked an 'Assisted Passage' up Wigan Locks and we had to be at the bottom of the 21 locks at 8am. We were then provided with two lock keepers who didn't leave us all the way up the flight. My wife set the next lock up whilst I was raised by one keeper each side of the lock. I was in a Norman 20 and held the boat with the engine at the back of the lock which facilitated all ground and gate paddles being able to be lifted virtually from empty. BW were absolutely superb, and although the team was changed half way up, we were at the top by 10.30, doing a lock in seven minutes start to finish at times.

 

We came down Wigan last summer and I called to enquire if the servuice is still available. The 'assisted passage' in the same way is NO longer available. The locks are now operated as the rest of our system, ie DIY but if the lock keeper is around he will help you.

 

When going down Gargrave locks last spring, a lock keeper appeared, Mr Benn style, and helped us down the locks. Apparently he was a short term worker who BW has employed just to help people up and down the locks for the summer. He was VERY helpful and couldn't do enough for us. We found him again on our way back. I don't know whether BW empoy someone similar at Wigan, but we went down at 8am so no lock keeper was in sight. We shared with another boat and still got down due to good team work in about three and a half hours.

 

On the Ribble Link they do the staircase for you and the sea lock and first (semi-tidal) lock, and they help a lot if there are only a few boats on the other locks, but they have to man both ends of the link, so if the first boat is to reach the staircase before the last boat leaves the semi-tidal lock, then some DIY is inevitable.

 

There are many staircases between Bingley and Leeds and some of these are manned, but on our way from Leeds towards Bingley a few years ago, a temporary BW worker opened the wrong side first and sent our friend's steel boat crashing in to my 16 foot GRP boat. They must have built those Yeomans to last and my refitted bulkheads must have been the correct type of Plywood and in the right place as no damage was sutained, but he got an earful!!!

 

Bingley 5 and 3 rises are also manned, something to do with the 3 rise having an odd-sized lock so you have to leave lower paddles open when the upper chamber is emptying or you flood Bingley apparently!!

 

I loved The River Trent as the locks are all manned up there (or at least they were a few years ago) and they even get it ready for you if you VHF on ahead. They are wonderful up there and the co-ordination is fantastic between the locks. The Aire and Calder are push button do it yourself.

 

Any way, drifting off topic, apologies, but the shorter locks above Wigan do fill a bit quicker which is good for us smaller boats, but I think it would be good if they could extend the locks on The Rufford Arm so 70 foot boats could reach The Lancaster Canal, it would be good to see them. I don't know how listed status or conservationists/historians would feel though!! I suppose if there was a '70 foot owners club' they could organise a road lift from Burscough to Rufford to by-pass it, like they used to do before the Ribble Link was built to lift boats on and off The Lancaster. It wasn't too dear if I remember rightly. It's only five minutes by road, but I suppose crane hire etc, would mean it would need a few boats together to organise.

 

There, knew, I'd get back on topic at some point!!!

[elessina]

There seems to be confusion between different BW websites about the maximum length of boat that can use the Leeds & Liverpool canal

 

Wanting to be able to cruise the Leeds and Liverpool we checked with the lock keeper at Bingley 5 and 3 rises, he said for a 12'-6" wide barge 60feet was the absolute max. Narrowboat up to 62ft was also the max.

 

Based on this we went ahead and had a 60ft barge built. Being based down South it will be a few years before we venture North (either by east coat or truck!!), but hopefully she will go through.

 

Ian

DB. Elessina