£1.37 a litre!!!!!!!

[alan_fincher]

Mark Boardman, of the diesel-selling boat 'Dusty', reckons that you need make no declaration of split if you're buying less than two jerrycans' worth of diesel, i.e. about eight gallons. Is this true?

I very much doubt it !

 

What's his source for that suggestion ?

 

HMRC site is clear you need to make declaration whenever buying fuel for a boat - I've seen no exemptions for small quantities.

 

If there were, what stops you buying your total usage "2 jerrycan's woth" at a time, and never making a declaration ?

 

Strange a reseller should say this, though !

[bottle]

Last week prices on the Glos -Sharpness all 'domestic' prices.

 

69.9

 

65

 

79.9

 

As you will know the canal is only 16 miles long but such a variation:angry:

[gaggle]

Last week prices on the Glos -Sharpness all 'domestic' prices.

 

69.9

 

65

 

79.9

 

As you will know the canal is only 16 miles long but such a variation:angry:

 

People pay way more for alchohol and then just piss it down the pan , at least the fuel moves the boat and is way cheaper.

[Dominic M]

You can, legally buy red non duty diesel for the non propulsion part and then buy white road diesel for the propulsion part. Works out alot cheaper, though I doubt anyone who says that is what they do actually does it. But it would be very difficult to dissprove.

Casp'

It doesn't work out cheaper to buy "road diesel" much of the time. I sell at 67ppl domestic, which equates to 115.5ppl propulsion. The garage down the road (Weedon, nr Daventry) is 119.9ppl at the moment. The cheapest to be found in this area is Northampton, which is 116.9ppl, so still more expensive. Then there's the cost of going to a garage, the hassle of filling up jerry cans, and the fact that your car will stink of diesel for weeks and rule you out of the next few weekends' dogging festivals.

[Dominic M]

No, it's because last weekend they were all on the Napton Flight.

Mark Boardman, of the diesel-selling boat 'Dusty', reckons that you need make no declaration of split if you're buying less than two jerrycans' worth of diesel, i.e. about eight gallons. Is this true?

No. If you supply red diesel to private pleasure craft, you are required to make a separate registration with HMRC that is on top of the normal RDCO (Registered Dealer in Controlled Oils)registration. You must not sell red to a private boat owner without first obtaining a declaration, unless the boat owner can demonstrate that it is his/her primary residence (which requires paper proof such a council tax bill, etc.) in which case a declaration is not required.

[nbfiresprite]

Bridge Boatyard at Ely had £1.35 on the Pump (Fixed 60/40),

Tesco's next door £1.16.

 

Firesprite

 

In the Office

[bag 'o' bones]

Just as a matter of interest is it possible to buy red diesel from a non canal fuel supplier? We have an oakleys depot near us but I don't think they sell in small quantities.

[cotswoldsman]

Just as a matter of interest is it possible to buy red diesel from a non canal fuel supplier? We have an oakleys depot near us but I don't think they sell in small quantities.

 

I guess the answer is yes not sure how this would sit with HMRC. Earlier this year I ran out of diesel on Llangollen canal as some kind person had stolen about 150 liters out of my tank a very kind farmer offered to help me out and sold me 200 liters at considerably cheaper than anywhere else I could buy it. Last year when I was traveling as part of a three boat we had 550 liters delivered canal side in a tanker the minimum purchase for a delivery was 500 liters we were never asked to sign a declaration.

[Doorman]

The fuel you use for propulsion must have the additional excise duty paid on it.

 

The excise duty on propulsion is 57.19 ppl, whereas on the "other" it is 10.99 ppl, a difference of 46.2 ppl. However that amount, (like all the excise duty) attracts VAT at a low rate of 5%, (a tax on a tax !), so the difference becomes 48.5 ppl (as near as damn it!).

 

If you buy you "red" from a non-marine supplier, and use if for propulsion, they have no mechanism to collect that extra duty and VAT and pay it to the revenue, so the law is being broken.

 

So far as I know, it would be OK to buy your "non propulsion" in jerry cans at agricultural prices, but you would have to be able to demonstrate that you had bought propulsion diesel from a marine source, and paid the full duty on it.

 

That's the law, so far as I'm aware. Many people clearly think they have no chance of being rumbled if they break it, but they should not delude themselves they are acting legally, IMO.

 

Shouldn't this be illegal?

 

It would be interesting to see how many other countries tolerate such extortion. Still, if taxation helps insolvant bankers then we shouldn't really complain, should we

[nb Innisfree]

No, it's because last weekend they were all on the Napton Flight.

Mark Boardman, of the diesel-selling boat 'Dusty', reckons that you need make no declaration of split if you're buying less than two jerrycans' worth of diesel, i.e. about eight gallons. Is this true?

 

Before the diesel split came into force I bought red diesel in jerry cans to do the initial fill on our boat, the owner of the boatyard said he had to inform HMI if the purchase exceeded a certain amount, I think it was in the region of 15 litres IIRC, this may explain Dusty's statement

Edited August 27, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Doorman]

People pay way more for alchohol and then just piss it down the pan , at least the fuel moves the boat and is way cheaper.

 

 

Don't really agree with that sentiment. If we just keep paying ridiculous prices for our fuel, then the companies will just keep charging us for it. I think it's called 'supply & demand'

 

Stupid is, stupid does!

Edited August 27, 2010 by Doorman

[alan_fincher]

Shouldn't this be illegal?

 

It would be interesting to see how many other countries tolerate such extortion. Still, if taxation helps insolvant bankers then we shouldn't really complain, should we

Far more is raised by VAT on road fuel, (where you are paying 17.5% VAT, soon to be 20%).

 

VAT on your red bought at a boatyard is much lower at 5%.

 

In both cases, it is applied as the final tax on the fuel you buy, so when you are buying fuel for your car, you are also paying VAT on the fuel duty already levied - just quite a bit more, that's all!

[Doorman]

Far more is raised by VAT on road fuel, (where you are paying 17.5% VAT, soon to be 20%).

 

VAT on your red bought at a boatyard is much lower at 5%.

 

In both cases, it is applied as the final tax on the fuel you buy, so when you are buying fuel for your car, you are also paying VAT on the fuel duty already levied - just quite a bit more, that's all!

 

 

Exactly! It only goes to underline my initial statement; Is this legal? or moreover, moral!

[J R]

Down the bottom end of the K & A 100% declaration comes out at £0.704p per litre. The buy in price from the wholesaler they are getting it at is £0.50p, the markup being £0.17p per litre profit not allowing for tax. Have a diesel price calculator program on my lappy, quite commonly used by boatyards as it happens, which I refer to before purchasing any diesel. It is good practice, imo, to agree the price/split before purchase to avoid, shall we say, any disagreements. The boatyards know the rules and quite frankly are taking the 9155 to either their percieved cash advantage or they quite frankly cant be bothered to do their jobs properly. Refer to HMRC Customs Brief 49/08 available on the HMRC website for the definitaive rules and legislation. Carry a hard copy on the boat in case any chancer boatyard decides to change the goal posts.

[matty40s]

It is down to the purchaser to determine the split and I wouldn't use a marina or seller who told me what my split was going to be. The sellers are only obliged to inform HMRC if a sale of more than 3000 litres is made in a single transaction, it is very unlikely they are going to investigate something less than this.

[Bobbybass]

I moor at Barton and white diesel is about £1.14 down the road.

I queried 60/40 with HMRC as I keep very comprehensive records. Their answer was that it is up to the buyer..but you often get 'blackmailed' into signing the 60/40 agreement when you fill up. I was told that you can 'adjust' the percentage when you fill up at a self declaration stop...for example claim maybe 80/20 or 90/10 providing you have the records to prove it. I then put it to them that they would query that 'agreed' a 60/40 split. In the end I presented my records and they sent me a refund cheque !!

[Doorman]

It is down to the purchaser to determine the split and I wouldn't use a marina or seller who told me what my split was going to be. The sellers are only obliged to inform HMRC if a sale of more than 3000 litres is made in a single transaction, it is very unlikely they are going to investigate something less than this.

 

 

Common sense at last!

 

We used to moor next to a high ranking police officer. He often scoffed at the notion that HMRC could possibly police this

situation effectively.

 

Their time would be better spent in investigating high earners who employ 'smart Alec' accountants to create imaginitive year-end figures. There's a very fine line between tax avoidance and tax evasion!

[Grace and Favour]

Far more is raised by VAT on road fuel, (where you are paying 17.5% VAT, soon to be 20%).

 

VAT on your red bought at a boatyard is much lower at 5%.

 

In both cases, it is applied as the final tax on the fuel you buy, so when you are buying fuel for your car, you are also paying VAT on the fuel duty already levied - just quite a bit more, that's all!

 

 

Exactly! It only goes to underline my initial statement; Is this legal? or moreover, moral!

 

Of course a multi-tax system is as moral as a single tax system . . . .

 

and, when you sit down over a pint of beer to mull over the rights and wrongs of it - just remember that all alcohol sales in the UK are subject to Excise Duty (based basically on ABV) with VAT applied to it also!

[Doorman]

Of course a multi-tax system is as moral as a single tax system . . . . and, when you sit down over a pint of beer to mull over the rights and wrongs of it - just remember that all alcohol sales in the UK are subject to Excise Duty (based basically on ABV) with VAT applied to it also!

 

 

Are you wishing to attract national condemnation here, or, just looking to wind this old wrinkly up?

 

Given the recent media coverage concerning flagrant abuse of tax payer's money by MPs, Bankers and anyone else in the queue, how can you advocate such forms of taxation.

 

I'm quite certain that if any government, was sincere enough to publish transparent evidence of where our hard earned cash goes, there would be national outrage!

 

Your comments suggest that you may be part of the civil service regime, who are blinded by government law, in the faithful quest of a comfortable desk job accompanied by a fat pension at the end of your years of 'hard graft'.

[FrigateCaptain]

As the farming buisness i work for is shutting, i've been informed that i can take the stock of R/D when the gates close. Theres near on 800ltrs in the tank!