Composting Lavatoirs

[lymmranger]

Cost

 

If being a liveaboard, emptying once a month at £15 (will increase) that is a cost of £180.

 

Therefore the unit will pay for itself quite quickly.

 

 

Bl**dy Hell bottle how do you last amonth between empties?

 

My neighbour only gets a week.........

[bottle]

 

Bl**dy Hell bottle how do you last amonth between empties?

 

My neighbour only gets a week.........

 

I don't, boat not built yet.

 

Just to give an example, of the economics of composting.

 

Your neighbour would get his money back in no time, unless he gets free pump outs.

[Carrie]

Would some kind soul put this numptie right?

:

 

Ok

 

Fresh drinking water is a precious thing that we need to conserve. So what do we do? We defecate into it. We add chemicals to fight the smell poduced when our excrement starts to break down anaerobically (drowned in water). Then we use large amounts of electricity to pump and carry it long distances. Then we use more clean drinking water and lots more chemicals to destrpy the pathogens created by poo trying to break down in water. Lots more electricity to macerate and finally restore the water back to a clean state.

The more electricity we 'need', the more power stations we 'need' to build and the more coal we need to burn. The more coal burnt (Drax power station for example!!) the worse climate change gets and the worse will be our droughts. More droughts, less water.

 

... or then again, we can just go on sh**ing in our drinking water...

[ChrisPy]

If we are entertaining then we leave it on.

 

why ?

 

is it like a lava lamp - fun to watch ?

[lymmranger]

Doh!

 

[blackrose]

My concerns about the composting toilet may have already have been covered:

 

1) Although all toilets are smelly to empty including pump outs and cassettes, what I don't like are smells coming from the holding tank while it's in use in the boat. This toilet looks like a dump through to me (the tank is directly under the seat), so wouldn't you get gasses coming up as you're extruding stuff into it?

 

2) As well as the potential to run down your batteries because of a continual 2amp load, the increased power consumption from the extra battery charging required might actually negate any environmental benefits this system accrued. I suppose solar panels and/or wind turbines could be used in conjunction, but an environmental profile would have to be conducted to quantify & establish any positive claims.

 

3) Someone above mentioned pathogens. Does this toilet compost waste at temperatures high enough to kill pathogens or is it simply that the resultant compost is dehydrated to the extent that pathogens cannot survive? I wouldn't want anyone to put the compost on their garden or allotment without knowing it was safe.

 

4) Lastly, since it's waterless what do you do about skidmarks on the bowl?

Edited September 28, 2006 by blackrose

[beatnik]

And, erm, do flies get in and divebomb your bum when you next sit down?

 

 

I wish there was somewhere to try out a composting loo. I was surprised that envirolet and biolet weren't at the UWA show. I was hoping to see one in the flesh. I'm in central London so no chandleries nearby.

 

And are there really on Envirolet (massive) and Biolet (peat) to choose from? I can't find any others on the internet.

 

I want a small, peatless one.

 

 

 

 

And I'm serious about the fly question... WHen you sit does it open a flap to the 'compost' (in which creatures can't get in easily) or is it always open?

[Pengalanty]

Having heard Carrie mention composting it has got me thinking again. My bathroom is going to be the next victim of my creativity and I am wondering about the pheasability of said loo. My bathroom is about 5ft at the mo. can anyone tell me about them and fan requirements?

 

Pengalanty - Comments

I have had a compoting toilet for a couple of years now. My next job on my boat, (As soon as funds have built up) is to dispense with this type of loo and fit a vacuflush type of system. I have yet to decide whether to have the cassette type, or a holding tank (Pumpout type).

 

I am copying some text recently sent to WWorld (Boaters Forum,) which may come into print in due course. You may be interested in reading it before you make any purchase:

 

******Copied******

 

Two years ago I designed and built a modern 58' 6" trad narrowboat.

 

I liked the idea of being "Green" and "Environmentally Friendly" and decided to fit a composting toilet. I have been using this for over eighteen months. During this time, I have met other boaters with this type of toilet. We have all experienced similar difficulties, although other boaters have different makes of toilet to me.

 

When I purchased the toilet, I was led to believe that it was so simple, that it was almost a "Fit and Forget Item." I think the statement made should have been "So Basic an item!"). I was told that it was a simple matter to fit, only needing a 12-volt DC supply for the fans and a 230-AC supply for the heater element. No problems with pump outs and no necessity to find "sani-stations" every few days!

 

I have found this somewhat different. In my case, (I'm on my own most of the time,) I have to drain off the excess liquid about every 14 days.

 

It was also a case of the "Mass" not being too wet or too dry and getting a feeling of how the loo was behaving. It is a living organism and needs an accelerator every 2 weeks, some peat added on a daily basis. I also had to include Cocoa Shells as my "Mass" was too heavy and the air could not penetrate through well enough. This type of toilet has to be tended to, rather like a garden, to keep it in good shape. It was a steep and fast learning curve in my case.

 

Last summer, I had the added problem of insect infestation, (Like little midges). To get over this, I sourced and purchased Diatomaceous Earth, (Another additional cost,) which more or less overcame the problem. I understand that ant killing powder has the same results. There would not have been very much difference in the outgoings between pumpouts and buying the extra items required.

 

When it came to taking some of the composted material out, which I was led to believe was a simple exercise, taking up very little time, I found that this was not so. The bottom bar on my loo, which acts like a "Riddle" of a solid fuel stove when raking ashes out, was, in fact, more or less seized up on every occasion. It requires tremendeous effort and strength. This was due to the weight and density of the "Mass". If it is too dry, it is hard and one is definitely unable to carry out what should be a simple procedure. In my case, each time it has turned out to be a morning or an afternoon job, rather then very little time. I had to resort to a small gardening fork and trowel and it took ages to do, on each occasion.

 

It is not an unpleasant task, as one would think. Because the material is composted, there is no smell and not quite like unblocking drains! However, I have decided that it is not for me.

 

The main reason for changing, is that the toilet is like a modern scout camp latrine carried round in a nice white plastic box. It is not the nicest of items for ladies on board, nor for visiting guests. It spoils a rather nicely fitted bathroom as it is not of the same quality as the vanity unit or bath fitted.

 

I know that many people like the idea of being environmentally friendly and green. However, a word of caution for anyone contemplating going down this route.

 

It might be OK for people using their boats for weekends only but from personal experience, it's certainly not suitable for anyone living aboard full time.

 

I have spoken to two other boaters who have composting toilets. In both cases, if the funds would allow, they would both change their systems. One couple I know well, do not even have a drain off facility on their composting loo and it is most difficult for them to remove the excess of liquid from the cabinet.

 

I have decided to dispense with the toilet altogether and fit a vacuflush system with a china bowl, low water requirement and holding tank. This upgrading will take place over the winter. The other alternative that I am giving consideration to, is the "Vacuflush" cassette system with perhaps an extra cassette.

 

You may reproduce any part of this document. I have specifically left out makes and distributors, as I do not want to be involved in any possible litigation. However, please emphasise - Other Boaters Beware! -

 

Regards, ~Allan Cazaly~ nb.Pengalanty (Cruising the Southern Grand Union)

 

******End of Copy******

[blackrose]

 

Pengalanty - Comments

I have had a compoting toilet for a couple of years now. My next job on my boat, (As soon as funds have built up) is to dispense with this type of loo and fit a vacuflush type of system. I have yet to decide whether to have the cassette type, or a holding tank (Pumpout type).

 

I am copying some text recently sent to WWorld (Boaters Forum,) which may come into print in due course. You may be interested in reading it before you make any purchase:

 

 

Thanks for the description of your experiences. I wish everyone was so honest and less defensive about their choices. It's very useful for anyone contemplating installing a composting toilet, especially as this represents a large investment. It's a pity that the idea and the reality of thes toilets are so different.

 

Since you're thinking of buying one I can give you some feedback on a Vacuflush with removable cassette:

 

I installed one 4 months ago and use it everyday. Easy to install and no problems so far* but I have been told that I will need to replace the o-rings where the cassette slides into the base unit on a regular basis.

 

I guess the cassettes are the same sort of volume as a portapotti but about 0.1 - 0.2 litres of water are used at every flush whereas this is less with a portapotti. On the other hand most casstte based systems require filling with a couple of litres of water before you even start - the vacuflush cassette is used from empty.

 

I live alone, go to work everyday, have a spare cassette and a nearby elsan point, so emptying is a job I only have to do every few weeks. But if you had a family on board it would be a different story. If you had the space & could find a 38mm L-port valve, you could have a vacuflush toilet feeding a cassette or a steel holding tank depending on which you selected. Mind you, I don't know how the built in vacuum holding tanks work.

 

* The only other issue for me has been a smell coming from the hose connecting the toilet to the cassette, but this is definately due to a faulty barrier in the hose and vetus have offered to replace it. (topic on another thread). If I were doing it again I would probably fit rigid pipe.

Edited September 30, 2006 by blackrose

[Crazy Scheme]

Cost

 

If being a liveaboard, emptying once a month at £15 (will increase) that is a cost of £180.

 

Therefore the unit will pay for itself quite quickly.

 

 

and schlepping your poo around in a plastic box

 

and there are a lot of keen gardeners around you know.

 

It is a 'waste' to let all that good fertiliser get flushed away when it could be used

[Alastair]

And, erm, do flies get in and divebomb your bum when you next sit down?

I wish there was somewhere to try out a composting loo. I was surprised that envirolet and biolet weren't at the UWA show. I was hoping to see one in the flesh. I'm in central London so no chandleries nearby.

 

And are there really on Envirolet (massive) and Biolet (peat) to choose from? I can't find any others on the internet.

 

I want a small, peatless one.

And I'm serious about the fly question... WHen you sit does it open a flap to the 'compost' (in which creatures can't get in easily) or is it always open?

 

I installed a Biolet about 4-5 weeks ago. We have 3 adults aboard full time, and 4 small childred for half the week.

 

It does need looking after - you have to get the mix right. also, the temperature setting is critical - too high, and the contents dry out and block the system. Too low, and liquid builds up in the emptying tray.

 

The extraction fan is fairly powerful, and we have had NO insect problem at all.

 

The washroom is now less smelly than it was when we used a sea toilet. That required constant cleaning and those domestic toilet flush thingies.

 

There is no bowl with the biolet - when you sit down, a flap system moves and the poop etc drops straight into the composting chamber.

 

I would say that it is easier to look after and less smelly than a porta-potti.

[lymmranger]

For goodness sake guys......

 

S*d enviromental issues.... I could argue on every aspect of your life not being enviromentally friendly (unless you live naked in a cave)

 

- These loos hardly ever need emptying.

 

- These loos do not smell

 

- These loos are very low maintenance

 

- these loos never dye you blue

 

- I cannot think of a better system (outside of a house loo)

 

AND they are more enviromentally friendly than any other boat system.

 

I also agree with Alaster, READ THE INSTRUCTIONS and you will be fine!

 

Oh! I do hope all you greens are taking good care of your horses.... what you have an engine???????

 

Sorry Alastair spelt your name wrong there!

[Carrie]

I've started using my home-made compost toilet (this week I have mostly been eating...).

Just thought I'd share that momentous news with you - I know you really wanted to know!!

[Big Steve]

Well, I'm glad you did, you've drawn my attention to this thread. I've just got a nb and don't like the elsan, it looks to me that the composting bog is the way to go. I've heard some horror stories about macerator and vacuum toilet blowbacks.

 

Re. the heating of compostors, wouldn't it be possible to run the engine cooling via a heating pad under the bog to give it a boost and save electric when cruising?

In fact you could have some sort of umpteen way heat exchanger which put heat into the pad from the stove, engine, solar heater or whatever devious contraption you could think up.

[lymmranger]

Steve.........

 

I no longer live aboard, and so liquid is not a major problem.

 

I find natural conection evaporates most of it away (if you are unfortunate enough to breath in whilst standing by the chimney you will know)

 

The important thing is to stir it.........

 

after each use or after a day or so.

 

When I lived aboard (alone, sob sob) - I found that I only had to leave it on for an hour or so each day

 

edited for atrocious spelling (bloody wine)

Edited March 17, 2007 by lymmranger

[Big Steve]

Thanks for the info Lymmranger, it certainly looks like this is the way forward. Any one know anything about biolet? I can only find their American site, they claim it's made in Sweden, so why can't I find a Swedish site? Does anyone stock them in UK?

[bottle]

Thanks for the info Lymmranger, it certainly looks like this is the way forward. Any one know anything about biolet? I can only find their American site, they claim it's made in Sweden, so why can't I find a Swedish site? Does anyone stock them in UK?

 

Canalshopman, Whilton marina (member of this forum) link

[lymmranger]

My instruction book refers to Sweden and Switzerland.

 

They didn`t use to be made in USA

 

My understanding is that Sweden has so many remote properties (ie no mains sewers) that this is the sensible solution.

(Switzerland too?)

 

I got mine some years ago, (cheap) They were going for about £1000 at the time.

 

I was advised to take a holiday to Sweden, go to a Swedish builders merchant and that they would be cheap enough to pay for the holiday......

 

however I spotted a "for sale" ad, bought one second hand (but new and unused) - saved a packet!!!!!!

 

Good luck in the hunt!

[Big Steve]

What model is yours Lymmranger? Does it have the heater or just the fan? I've found a bloke in the states selling them for $1300, by the time VAT and shipping is added it'll be $2000, around £1,000 which seems to be the going rate for a decent crapper. Also found an outfit in Spain selling them, but no prices yet. Still can't understand why no Swedish site comes up when searching for these things on Google.

[Alastair]

They aren't called biolet in Sweden, that's why you don't get a Swedish website.

 

I do think that the commercial toilets are very overpriced.

 

If I was selecting a system again, I wouldn't get the composting toilet, simply because it doesn't cope with the number of people we have here.

 

I think that a Biolet or Envirolet would be fine for 2 people.

 

By buying a commercial unit, you get something that looks reassuringly like a 'normal' toilet. This makes it more acceptable for visitors.

 

I think that I could make a composting toilet that would work as well as a commercial one, and be easier to clean. But it wouldn't have that 'white goods' look.

[lymmranger]

What model is yours Lymmranger? Does it have the heater or just the fan? I've found a bloke in the states selling them for $1300, by the time VAT and shipping is added it'll be $2000, around £1,000 which seems to be the going rate for a decent crapper. Also found an outfit in Spain selling them, but no prices yet. Still can't understand why no Swedish site comes up when searching for these things on Google.

 

Mine is a 240v AC model with heater fan and stirrer,

 

Alastair is correct although mine has the word "Biolet" printed on it the instructions mention another trade name.........

 

Cant put my book to hand at present but "hu....." seems to ring a bell, will try and find it.

 

My instruction book did not include a DIY compost mix recipe, but others on the forum have this info with their models

 

From memory, my instructions did give me the impression that there were several models available and that the number of full time users dictated the model you chose.

 

Anyone know anyone in Sweden that they could ask???????????

[Big Steve]

I discovered (via USA site) that Biolet company is known as Mulltoa in Europe. Funny thing is, when you find their web site, it still calls them Biolets.

Now found the Envirolet information, via canalboatshop, their's looks bigger and butcher than the Biolet , and you can get at the electrics, if it goes wrong , without being up to the armpits in shhhh.. you know what. They are (both makes) $1200-$1500 in the States, by the time they get here they are £1200 -£1500 . That really gets on my wires.

 

Any info appreciated.

[Rick-n-Jo]

Interesting discussion.

 

You all seem to have dismissed the Sun-Mar, Canal Shop Man would, I suppose, since he's selling a rival product.

 

The smaller Ecolet models, aimed at caravans, RVs and small boats would struggle to cope with more than two people, or continuous use, but if you can design your loo to have space for the Exel range they should be more than adequate. They come in mains, and non-electric variants (NE, still needs a fan, which can be supplied along with activated carbon filters). Some owners have tried using engine heat or central heating instead of the built in heater.

 

The main problem with fitting one of these Excel variants is access through doors and space in the Head. The Excels are 33" long x 22.5" x 32" high and require 48" in which to remove the Finishing Drawer.

 

Since we're seriously considering one of these (Excel or Excel Marine) I'd be pleased to hear from anyone with first hand experience.

 

Contact for UK distributor is Adam East

 

Website Sun-Mar

 

Rick

[Canal Shop Man]

Now found the Envirolet information, via canalboatshop, their's looks bigger and butcher than the Biolet , and you can get at the electrics, if it goes wrong , without being up to the armpits in shhhh.. you know what.

OK, I'm getting some more info on the Biolet, but initial thoughts are that its 240v (or 110v) only and would consume a lot of power - I'll keep you posted!

They are (both makes) $1200-$1500 in the States, by the time they get here they are £1200 -£1500 . That really gets on my wires.

 

Any info appreciated.

If you don't like the cost complain to the government and DHL - the difference is made up by import duty, VAT and shipping costs. The first two I can't do anything about. I'm trying to reduce the shipping cost by importing a large number, but that isn't easy to organise (anyone got space to keep 50 toilets??)

 

Interesting discussion.

 

You all seem to have dismissed the Sun-Mar, Canal Shop Man would, I suppose, since he's selling a rival product.

Sorry, just missed your post whilst doing mine -

 

I had the choice of importing either make and only chose the Envirolet because I could see its advantages over the Sun-mar - even though it was more expensive.

Both toilets work, but I would choose an Envirolet every time.

[Ron]

Hate to ask an awkward question, but if you are living on a narrowboat, what do you do with all that compost?

 

What sort of volume is produced per person per year?