Improving the basics for new boaters.

[Naughty Cal]

Of course it isn't, and I never claimed that it was.

 

However, I would dispute any claim that ALL hirers fall into the "couldn't give a damn" category.

 

Let us assume that 50% of hirers do fall into this category.

 

That would mean that at bases that do a poor handover, 100% of hirers come out without a clue as to what to do. At bases with a good handover, half the hirers come out a little better equipped. It isn't perfect, but it is better than nothing.

 

But no one is suggesting doing nothing.

 

The suggestion is to leave things alone and leave things as they are. Hire bases dont need more red tape or hoops to jump through.

 

I guess it's possible that your experiences may be oriented to somewhere a bit more like the Broads ? I've never tried that, but from what I have heard, such "don't give a damn" behaviours are perhaps more prevalent there ?

 

Not all of it. The canaltime hirers we came across on the Soar where all happy (the ones we spoke to in and around the locks and moorings) with the handling of the boats. None complained of bad handovers and all seemed to handle the craft as well as could be expected from novice/weekly hirers. One group had come from New Zealand and had hired a pair of canal time boats for their two weeks away. If their handovers where as poor as some claim on here then i doubt they would have made it to the mouth of the Soar (past the weirs and trent) never mind Kegworth. Also during this week there where a number of closures so the only route open to them in this direction was the soar so we probably met a higher proportion than would be expected.

 

It is a little unfair on the hire companies to suggest that they must give a two/three hour handover to each group of customers. Smaller hire groups may be able to do this but if your fleet consists of twenty or more boats it is a huge drain on time that should otherwise be spent on cleaning, servicing and paperwork. Not only that but you would end up with customers sat around waiting hours for one handover to finish before they can start theirs.

[mayalld]

But no one is suggesting doing nothing.

 

The suggestion is to leave things alone and leave things as they are. Hire bases dont need more red tape or hoops to jump through.

 

That IS doing nothing.

 

As things stand, SOME hire firms are doing it right, some are not.

 

The fact that having to do things right may be inconvenient for some of the dodgier operators doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.

 

It is a little unfair on the hire companies to suggest that they must give a two/three hour handover to each group of customers. Smaller hire groups may be able to do this but if your fleet consists of twenty or more boats it is a huge drain on time that should otherwise be spent on cleaning, servicing and paperwork. Not only that but you would end up with customers sat around waiting hours for one handover to finish before they can start theirs.

 

That pre-supposes that handover can only be done by one person.

 

Bigger firms would employ more handover staff.

 

The important thing about handover is how it is structured, so as not to overtax the attention span. For example;

 

• Hirer arrives
  
• 10 minute briefing on the domestic elements of the boat
  
• 10 minute briefing on engine/weed hatch/greaser
  
• Leave them to load their bags
  
• 10 minute dvd (on board)
  
• Q&A
  
• practical demonstration, and practice cruise
  
• final Q&A
  
• Off they go, with a copy of the DVD presentation still on board, so they can review it later if they want
  

 

Just splitting the learning up by getting some in before they start loading their bags helps

[alan_fincher]

It is a little unfair on the hire companies to suggest that they must give a two/three hour handover to each group of customers. Smaller hire groups may be able to do this but if your fleet consists of twenty or more boats it is a huge drain on time that should otherwise be spent on cleaning, servicing and paperwork. Not only that but you would end up with customers sat around waiting hours for one handover to finish before they can start theirs.

There are very few hire companies, I would suggest, that have a fleet of any significant size, that do not split their hirings so that different boats are hired from different days of the week.

 

It is not necessary to give intensive training to each crew, either. A good hire company will recognise a repeat hiring, or pick up on the fact that someone has experience, then limit themselves only to the essentials, or to particular areas where the current boat may differ from a previous hiring.

 

Some hirers "get it" very quickly - others take a lot more work. A good company will have enough capacity to ensure those who need the extra instruction get it.

 

It is not unusual to despatch a member of the hire base staff to the first lock(s) most boats will encounter. In that way vetting of each crew, and any necessary extra instruction, is usually possible with minimal delays.

 

The fact that many hire companies abdicate such responsibilities doesn't mean it can't happen.

 

There is a trade off too - if a boat returns from a hiring with damage that needs to be repaired before it can go out again, then this can cause greater delays to the next hirers than making sure training gets done. I recall frantic attempts to repair damage to a boat that Barbara Castle, (Minister of Transport, at the time), and her husband had managed to smash into a typical wide Grand Union bridge. It made training the next crew harder, as they could not on the first day use the side that still had wet paint on.

[Mick and Maggie]

None complained of bad handovers.

 

As new hirers how would they judge the quality of the handover procedure. If you believe that what you were given was sufficient, because you know no better, how could you complain?

This is where an industry recognised standard of handover procedure to a syllabus would benefit everyone.

 

It is a little unfair on the hire companies to suggest that they must give a two/three hour handover to each group of customers.

 

But it would not be done every time a person hires. A current passport would show that they had been given instruction to a syllabus. (The syllabus would setout outcomes and expectations.) And the passport would record that they had gained further hands-on experience within the last three years, because later hires would have been stamped in their passport. If boat yards just rely on a hirer saying - I'm OK. It's not doing anything to improve the experience for everyone using the cut.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Mick and Maggie

[Junemc153]

As a fairly new hirer (we have hired from Napton Narrowboats for the past two years) I find this discussion interesting.

 

We are two couples of “forty somethings” who thought long and hard about a canal boat holiday and then did loads of research about hire companies, and also did some reading about using the canals themselves, how locks work, etc., etc. In fact we would have been happy to spend a couple of hours or so before picking up the boat to get some training.

 

We have hired from both Napton bases and found our first experience at Autherley Junction to be most excellent. The staff let us load our stuff on the boat and then spent a good hour going over the boat in detail, both in domestic and engine terms, steering, weedhatch etc. and this included the health and safety elements too. We were also told about speed limits and the protocols relating to moored boats. We were then walked to the stop lock and had an explanation of how it worked before we even got the boat moving. The guy then came with us through the lock (we opened and closed it) stayed with us for 15 mins or so until he was confident in our abilities.

 

Last year we hired from the Napton base, again we got the detailed talk but this was interrupted by other hirers who wanted to get out onto the canal and couldn’t wait until the staff member had finished with us. Fortunately we were able to get the boat out ourselves and left the staff to the other hirers.

 

The base at Napton has far more boats than at Autherley and I think this is the difference. Everybody turned up at 3.00 p.m. at Napton and it was a free for all. We were in no rush and were happy to wait but others aren’t and this is where the problems start – the WE MUST GET OUT BEFORE EVERYBODY ELSE attitude. At Autherley there were two members of staff and about four boats so it wasn’t too bad.

 

We now have the bug for canal life and this year have the use of our friends’ boat (they trust us!) instead of hiring.

 

Sorry this is long but I thought it might help the discussion.

June

 

PS on our first trip we did meet somebody who said "hire boaters are dangerous and don't get enough training" and then proceeded to nearly drown me when he opened the ground paddles fully as we were going up a lock!

[Naughty Cal]

But it would not be done every time a person hires. A current passport would show that they had been given instruction to a syllabus. (The syllabus would setout outcomes and expectations.) And the passport would record that they had gained further hands-on experience within the last three years, because later hires would have been stamped in their passport. If boat yards just rely on a hirer saying - I'm OK. It's not doing anything to improve the experience for everyone using the cut.

 

So the hirer who got their "passport" four years ago when he hired for a short break, has not hired since and has forgotten how to handle the boat is fine, he neednt take it again. But the hirer who has experience of many holidays aboard, just none with the new passport scheme, has to endure two/three hours of training first?

 

 

As new hirers how would they judge the quality of the handover procedure.

 

Im sure even a very novice hirer would be able to conclude if they where given a good or a bad handover.

 

If you walk into a shop you have never been into before you still know if you got good or bad service.

[carlt]

Maybe they should introduce a test, like the old Part 1 motorbike test, where the hire company has to dig a separate lake for the new hirers to demonstrate their control of the boat by steering around cones, attached to buoys.

[Naughty Cal]

Maybe they should introduce a test, like the old Part 1 motorbike test, where the hire company has to dig a separate lake for the new hirers to demonstrate their control of the boat by steering around cones, attached to buoys.

 

Good idea.

 

And they cant be set free until they have managed to successfully reverse park between two cones.

[Mick and Maggie]

So the hirer who got their "passport" four years ago when he hired for a short break, has not hired since and has forgotten how to handle the boat is fine, he neednt take it again. But the hirer who has experience of many holidays aboard, just none with the new passport scheme, has to endure two/three hours of training first?

 

All schemes have a starting point - the closer that is to a level playing field the better.

 

 

Im sure even a very novice hirer would be able to conclude if they where given a good or a bad handover.

I don't think so, as a new boater, they are going into the boat yard for possibly the first time, never having had the handover experience or anything similar to it before to base their judgement on.

 

 

If you walk into a shop you have never been into before you still know if you got good or bad service.

I agree, but they would have been into hundreds of other shops and have experienced broadly similar sales service. Thefore they are experienced enough to make a reasonable judgement.

[Naughty Cal]

I agree, but they would have been into hundreds of other shops and have experienced broadly similar sales service. Thefore they are experienced enough to make a reasonable judgement.

 

If you walk into a boat brokers for the first time you knwo if you got a good service or not. Hire boating is no different.

 

All schemes have a starting point - the closer that is to a level playing field the better.

 

It wont be level though. Boat owners wont need the passport or any other qualification. They just buy a boat and go.

[barge sara]

Where does this end?

Some hire companies will also hire bicycles out with their boats - are they going to have to administer cycling proficiency tests too?

Will I need to show my CITB certificate next time I go to hire a scaffold tower?

 

I think you are trying to introduce bureaucracy where it really isn't needed, and giving the impression to novices that boat handling is difficult and dangerous to the extent that they will be put off alltogether and go to Centerparks instead for a relaxing hoilday that doesn't start with a 'driving test'!.

[carlt]

I agree, but they would have been into hundreds of other shops and have experienced broadly similar sales service. Thefore they are experienced enough to make a reasonable judgement.

Therefore a certificate, hanging on the office wall, confirming that their staff have taken the required training, to provide instruction, should allay any holiday maker's concerns.

 

There is no need for a passport, proving the customer's competence. Nor should there be.

[Dekazer]

Maybe they should introduce a test, like the old Part 1 motorbike test, where the hire company has to dig a separate lake for the new hirers to demonstrate their control of the boat by steering around cones, attached to buoys.

 

We'd still be inundated with born again boaters who learned in a 22ft Springer in their 20s, and then don't touch another boat until they have a mid life crisis and build a 60ft widebeam in their 40s and start hooning about in it disturbing the wildlife and worrying their wives...

 

[mayalld]

If you walk into a boat brokers for the first time you knwo if you got a good service or not. Hire boating is no different.

 

 

 

It wont be level though. Boat owners wont need the passport or any other qualification. They just buy a boat and go.

 

Your determination not to "get it" defies belief.

 

Firstly, buying a boat from a broker is a transaction for the purchase of goods, and is not generally expected to come with a training element. People have experience of buying goods, and know what good looks like.

 

Receiving a hire boat handover is training. People have less experience of that, and new hirers have no yardstick by which they could measure the quality, because it is not similar to their other life experiences.

 

Secondly, we are looking at a question of scale here;

• Every year, how many complete novices are let loose on the system with the boat that they just bought?
  
• Every year, how many complete novices are let loose on the system with the boat that they just hired for a week?
  

 

The problem of inadequately trained people on hire boats is larger, which isn't to say that I would discount the idea that brokers should voluntarily carry out a handover on a boat they just sold.

[Naughty Cal]

We'd still be inundated with born again boaters who learned in a 22ft Springer in their 20s, and then don't touch another boat until they have a mid life crisis and build a 60ft widebeam in their 40s and start hooning about in it disturbing the wildlife and worrying their wives...

 

 

They are private boat owners though. They can do what they like. No need for a test/passport

[mayalld]

Therefore a certificate, hanging on the office wall, confirming that their staff have taken the required training, to provide instruction, should allay any holiday maker's concerns.

 

There is no need for a passport, proving the customer's competence. Nor should there be.

 

Indeed there is no need.

 

However, if all hire companies were to operate high quality handover processes, such a scheme might assist them in determining which boaters need only a 10 minute handover, and which need 2 hours.

[Naughty Cal]

Your determination not to "get it" defies belief.

 

Firstly, buying a boat from a broker is a transaction for the purchase of goods, and is not generally expected to come with a training element. People have experience of buying goods, and know what good looks like.

 

Receiving a hire boat handover is training. People have less experience of that, and new hirers have no yardstick by which they could measure the quality, because it is not similar to their other life experiences.

 

Secondly, we are looking at a question of scale here;

• Every year, how many complete novices are let loose on the system with the boat that they just bought?
  
• Every year, how many complete novices are let loose on the system with the boat that they just hired for a week?
  

 

The problem of inadequately trained people on hire boats is larger, which isn't to say that I would discount the idea that brokers should voluntarily carry out a handover on a boat they just sold.

 

Where do you get your numbers from David?

 

Everybody is capable of making the desicion as to wether they got a satisfactory hand over or not. This will of course vary from person to person. There is nothing "to get" on the basis that there is no set of rules or syllabus that the hire companies have to follow. They each make their own desicion as to what makes a satisfactory handover. Your constant whinneying and bleating about "getting it" are not going to change anything.

 

 

Indeed there is no need.

 

However, if all hire companies were to operate high quality handover processes, such a scheme might assist them in determining which boaters need only a 10 minute handover, and which need 2 hours.

 

Why waste their time when they dont need to?

 

Do you spend an extra two hours a day number crunching because someone might like you to?

[RLWP]

Where do you get your numbers from David?

 

Everybody is capable of making the desicion as to wether they got a satisfactory hand over or not. This will of course vary from person to person. There is nothing "to get" on the basis that there is no set of rules or syllabus that the hire companies have to follow. They each make their own desicion as to what makes a satisfactory handover. Your constant whinneying and bleating about "getting it" are not going to change anything.

 

FOUL!

 

He asked you for numbers. You can't ask him where he got his from as he hasn't suggested that he had any.

 

Richard

[Naughty Cal]

FOUL!

 

He asked you for numbers. You can't ask him where he got his from as he hasn't suggested that he had any.

 

Richard

 

I dont have the numbers, nor have i claimed to have the numbers.

 

Would be interested to find them out though.

[luctor et emergo]

Maybe they should introduce a test, like the old Part 1 motorbike test, where the hire company has to dig a separate lake for the new hirers to demonstrate their control of the boat by steering around cones, attached to buoys.

 

 

Hmm, should be interesting..

 

"when I strike the hatch with my clipboard, I want you to make a controlled emergency stop"

[mayalld]

Where do you get your numbers from David?

 

What numbers? I didn't quote any numbers!

 

Unless, of course, you are seriously trying to claim that there are more complete novices setting sail every year in private boats than in hire boats.

 

Which would be good, because it would be so silly as to be beyond belief

 

Everybody is capable of making the desicion as to wether they got a satisfactory hand over or not. This will of course vary from person to person. There is nothing "to get" on the basis that there is no set of rules or syllabus that the hire companies have to follow. They each make their own desicion as to what makes a satisfactory handover. Your constant whinneying and bleating about "getting it" are not going to change anything.

 

They have no idea what good looks like, because they don't know what they should be shown.

 

 

Why waste their time when they dont need to?

 

Do you spend an extra two hours a day number crunching because someone might like you to?

 

It doesn't waste their time.

 

A voluntary massport scheme would allow hirers who wished to do so to have a record of their experience and prior training.

 

If a hirer has no passport, the operator must assume that the hirer needs a full training session, covering everything. If the hirer has a passport showing recent training and experience, the operator knows that he can do an abridged handover.

 

Everybody wins. The operator can plan for lower staffing of handover, and to concentrate staffing on those who need it. The more experienced hirer isn't kept hanging around for pointless instruction.

 

Oh, and in answer to your question, yes I do. I am often required to provide numbers at short notice to support the business. crunching numbers that nobody actually uses some days ensures that I am ready to supply them when they are needed.

[Naughty Cal]

What numbers? I didn't quote any numbers!

 

Unless, of course, you are seriously trying to claim that there are more complete novices setting sail every year in private boats than in hire boats.

 

Which would be good, because it would be so silly as to be beyond belief

 

 

 

They have no idea what good looks like, because they don't know what they should be shown.

 

 

 

 

It doesn't waste their time.

 

A voluntary massport scheme would allow hirers who wished to do so to have a record of their experience and prior training.

 

If a hirer has no passport, the operator must assume that the hirer needs a full training session, covering everything. If the hirer has a passport showing recent training and experience, the operator knows that he can do an abridged handover.

 

Everybody wins. The operator can plan for lower staffing of handover, and to concentrate staffing on those who need it. The more experienced hirer isn't kept hanging around for pointless instruction.

 

Oh, and in answer to your question, yes I do. I am often required to provide numbers at short notice to support the business. crunching numbers that nobody actually uses some days ensures that I am ready to supply them when they are needed.

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Although i still think you are talking a load of bull again.

 

And proving what a boring existence you live in the process.

[mayalld]

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Although i still think you are talking a load of bull again.

 

And proving what a boring existence you live in the process.

 

Translation:

 

"I can't actually fault your reasoning, so I'll just insult you"

[Naughty Cal]

Translation:

 

"I can't actually fault your reasoning, so I'll just insult you"

 

If that is how you read it then fine.

 

What i actually said is we will have to agree to disagree.

 

You think you are right, i think i am right. One of us is wrong.

[mykaskin]

Bloke on a boat training course, when asked if he had experience on a boat said he had been boating for 10 years.

 

Later, once he'd managed to hit a boat while turning and struggled with stopping for a closed lock, it transpired he'd been with a group that had hired a boat one weekend a year for 10 years, and he'd only steered the boat between locks!!

 

There's experience, and then there's experience.

Edited April 16, 2010 by mykaskin