Narrowboats and wide boats rediscovered at Harefield - the facts

[journeyperson]

Cohen rewrote it, for the American market, but the original recording, in which he sang "Yarmouth" is a very scarce collector's item.

 

Would that be a Canadian Yarmouth rather than Great Yarmouth?

[magpie patrick]

Hi Chris,

The boat in my B/W picture is a Walkers butty, the other I strongly believe is a Uxbridge FMC butty.

 

Adelina was researched a while back and is strongly believed to have been a Somerset Canal boat. It certainly is not a "Severner" and the bows are not "Worcester bows". That term relates to the boats that were constructed to take on the heavy flow of the Severn, they had extra strong guards on the fore ends, a little thicker than most boats and these had a thick wooden guard beneath them. The other feature was the "Wooden heads" situated either side of the fore deck which were used when these craft were towed in trains. These "Heads" had a hole through them so a long tow line could be run down the train of boats, apparently this was for stability. Survivors are few, the only full length ones easily seen now lie wrecked at Keays dock site Walsall, one still has half a bow intact with a wooden head. There are some at Lydney in bits, some lie just near Coombe Hill on the Severn as bank protection. a few were converted, "Linguist" being one, others may exist in places like the Timber ponds on the G&S.

 

Some S&CCC motors exist. wooden ones like "Don" and "Dane" ended up with Thos Clayton's, most if not all of the steel welded Charles Hill built motors are still around. one is "preserved" at Gloucester in original livery.

 

Adelina in 1980 - the hull is very poor but stern still original

 

 

 

Laurence, are you sure you are not confusing SCC (Somersetshire Coal Canal) with SCC (Severn and Canal Carrying)

 

Somerset Coal boats were a tad small, only a foot shorter and 2 inches narrower, but smaller. They were also primitive as far as we know

[Laurence Hogg]

Laurence, are you sure you are not confusing SCC (Somersetshire Coal Canal) with SCC (Severn and Canal Carrying)

 

Somerset Coal boats were a tad small, only a foot shorter and 2 inches narrower, but smaller. They were also primitive as far as we know

Absolutely sure. If you look at Adelina she is more akin to a Manchester box boat / Joey, very crude, little shape. The stern of a S&CCC horse boat or a "Severner" rises and has shape, Adelina is more akin to a Joey.

[MarkyP]

The below Harefield BW Archive photo (also seen in "Too Many Boats"), shows a number of GU and FMC Uxbridge boats +what seems to be at least one wideboat. The locations of the boats in this photo bear no resemblance to the other BW Archive photos and there are floating and sunken motors especially, which would have been removed. From key reference points in the background this photo seems to have been taken at least 5 years before the others, however it does look like one of the butty's at least has early BW paintwork (so frames the date of photo to between 1948 and 1962).

 

 

Questions I'm asking myself are:

 

Are these the boats that some talk of "coming out of Harefield Flash"?

 

What are the names of boats that are said to have come out of Harefield Flash?

 

Can any boat in this photo be positively identified (I assume only by deduction), and known to have existed post 1962?

 

Any input welcomed...

[Laurence Hogg]

This shows where the photographer stood to take the above picture.

 

[the grinch]

looking at the 3 items

the current positions

the old photo

and laurences reference point

it would appear that the 3 are probably the same boats, but the sterns seem to be the wrong end for the current positions

so given that maybe the front row in the old picture were subsequently removed leaving the rest in the background as they seem to be about right boats 18 -20 could easily be on the rear centre of the old photo?

Edited March 27, 2010 by hamsterfan

[Laurence Hogg]

so given that maybe the front row in the old picture were subsequently removed leaving the rest in the background as they seem to be about right boats 18 -20 could easily be on the rear centre of the old photo?

 

We strongly suspect that this picture is post 1956. It would appear that a lot of the boats seen were removed, there is also some evidence of the sunken boats being raised and moved. Further research is needed to confirm that fact.

 

For anyone who has suspected this was an elaborate "April fool" in the making (we know who you are!) take a look at Narrowboat, the latest edition and the forthcoming Waterways World both are featuring this remarkable site.

 

edited to correct date.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Laurence Hogg

[AMModels]

Hi everyone, not been too well but have seen a bit of this on the bcn group and guessed thered be a bit more detail here fascinating stuff Im really looking forward to seeing what comes of the investigation...maybe contact time team and get em in to help ;-)

 

Laurence saw you mention Linguist, did you see my thread on it from about a year ago? she was looking in a very sorry state back then I dont know if she has survived til now.

[Denis R]

We strongly suspect that this picture is post 1956.

I concur Laurence - the houses in Hillside are just visible through the trees - they were built in the fifties. I was brought up and my family still live in The Furrows, part of the same development.

[Hugh]

I see Laurence and his mates are selling the boats off already!

 

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=142216

 

Think the bidding may have closed at noon though

 

Hugh

[Derek R.]

Ooops - blast! I missed it . . . and the date is?

[MarkyP]

Apologies to all for the "deathy silence" – not because there's been no progress, but because there's been plenty!

 

Amongst the people expressing an interest in the "find" have been a retired couple who worked the canals all their lives, and who actually took a number of narrowboats into Harefield Flash in the 1960's - I visited them recently and it's clear they have a wealth of information to share. Communication with the descendant of a London based carrier using wideboats has also been of great interest and use with forming a clearer background picture. Both will be of great value moving forward.

 

The National Trust have a project at Dapdune Wharf on the River Wey, recording the Steven's barges. They made contact following the feature in WW and have given very good advice on the issues, obstacles and opportunities with the Harefield site. In addition communications with Nautical Archaeological Society have proved invaluable – they have been closely involved with recording the Purton Hulks and the Dapdune Wharf barges amongst other projects, and have a real desire to bring their such Archaeology to life for the community.

 

As has been reported The Waterways Trust have been very supportive right from the off. Whilst the identified craft are not on their property, British Waterways have been genuinely interested in the craft and potential project.

 

Collation of information is now well underway, but there are a few questions I wonder if the CWDF regulars could help with:

 

1. In one of the Bert Dunkley pictures it looks like there may be a partially sunk Royalty class butty pictured, however the cabin seen is higher than would be expected - these boats are in Hawtreys pit behind the present Harefield marina. In a second shot by Phillip Weaver, there appears to be two buttys with a Royalty type profile - these are shown floating, possibly in the now filled in part of Harefield marina. Can anyone clarify the exact age of the Dunkley and Weaver "Harefield" photos?

 

2. We know there are remains underwater in the flooded part of Hawtreys pit, but are unable to confirm 100% which exact craft they might be. The ex boat people interviewed have confirmed that over 12 pairs of Town class GU boats were sunk here in the 1960's and in the adjoining filled in part of Harefield marina. These are obviously different to the Dunkley "Josher" pics - does anyone know the names of the Town Class boats put into Harefield?

 

3. Lastly, does anyone know where the Rickmansworth PH records are?

 

It's essential now that as much information on the site as possible is gathered, to allow us to proceed further. Anything that can be contributed would be welcomed.

 

Many thanks,

 

Mark

[Laurence Hogg]

Apologies to all for the "deathy silence" – not because there's been no progress, but because there's been plenty!

 

Amongst the people expressing an interest in the "find" have been a retired couple who worked the canals all their lives, and who actually took a number of narrowboats into Harefield Flash in the 1960's - I visited them recently and it's clear they have a wealth of information to share. Communication with the descendant of a London based carrier using wideboats has also been of great interest and use with forming a clearer background picture. Both will be of great value moving forward.

 

The National Trust have a project at Dapdune Wharf on the River Wey, recording the Steven's barges. They made contact following the feature in WW and have given very good advice on the issues, obstacles and opportunities with the Harefield site. In addition communications with Nautical Archaeological Society have proved invaluable – they have been closely involved with recording the Purton Hulks and the Dapdune Wharf barges amongst other projects, and have a real desire to bring their such Archaeology to life for the community.

 

As has been reported The Waterways Trust have been very supportive right from the off. Whilst the identified craft are not on their property, British Waterways have been genuinely interested in the craft and potential project.

 

Collation of information is now well underway, but there are a few questions I wonder if the CWDF regulars could help with:

 

1. In one of the Bert Dunkley pictures it looks like there may be a partially sunk Royalty class butty pictured, however the cabin seen is higher than would be expected - these boats are in Hawtreys pit behind the present Harefield marina. In a second shot by Phillip Weaver, there appears to be two buttys with a Royalty type profile - these are shown floating, possibly in the now filled in part of Harefield marina. Can anyone clarify the exact age of the Dunkley and Weaver "Harefield" photos?

 

2. We know there are remains underwater in the flooded part of Hawtreys pit, but are unable to confirm 100% which exact craft they might be. The ex boat people interviewed have confirmed that over 12 pairs of Town class GU boats were sunk here in the 1960's and in the adjoining filled in part of Harefield marina. These are obviously different to the Dunkley "Josher" pics - does anyone know the names of the Town Class boats put into Harefield?

 

3. Lastly, does anyone know where the Rickmansworth PH records are?

 

It's essential now that as much information on the site as possible is gathered, to allow us to proceed further. Anything that can be contributed would be welcomed.

 

Many thanks,

 

Mark

 

Come on Canal World people, getting digging through albums etc, we really are at a crucial point with this operation.

[Steve King]

Come on Canal World people, getting digging through albums etc, we really are at a crucial point with this operation.

Ok, well I went to have a look at the boats at Harefield in 1975. Not long after that, Small Woolwich motor 'Bootes' came up for sale and I inspected it at Uxbridge with a view to buying it. An unusually batttered boat for a Star class, the counter was all dented and the sides had barely a straight line as I recall, this despite a large scarf joint just aft of the fore-end bulkhead and another just forward of the engine room bulkhead where presumably the boat had been completely re(side)plated at some point. It would have been a year or so later that I mentioned Bootes to former Boater Charlie Green who lived above the Toll House at Little Venice. He told me that Bootes had been dumped at Harefield, and when retrieved it had suffered corrosion to the hull and needed replating.

 

I have to say it seems a bit unlikely that a Small Woolwich would be replated at this late stage (1950s on?). And for what reason? If it was to become a waterbus then that might make sense but Bootes was never a trip boat as far as I know. And besides, there were plenty of better hulls around. So, take of this what you will, but it might just help.

 

 

Steve

Edited May 7, 2010 by Steve King

[pete harrison]

Ok, well I went to have a look at the boats at Harefield in 1975. Not long after that, Small Woolwich motor 'Bootes' came up for sale and I inspected it at Uxbridge with a view to buying it. An unusually batttered boat for a Star class, the counter was all dented and the sides had barely a straight line as I recall, this despite a large scarf joint just aft of the fore-end bulkhead and another just forward of the engine room bulkhead where presumably the boat had been completely re(side)plated at some point. It would have been a year or so later that I mentioned Bootes to former Boater Charlie Green who lived above the Toll House at Little Venice. He told me that Bootes had been dumped at Harefield, and when retrieved it had suffered corrosion to the hull and needed replating.

 

I have to say it seems a bit unlikely that a Small Woolwich would be replated at this late stage (1950s on?). And for what reason? If it was to become a waterbus then that might make sense but Bootes was never a trip boat as far as I know. And besides, there were plenty of better hulls around. So, take of this what you will, but it might just help.

 

 

Steve

 

I am afraid that the paper trail does not bare out Mr Green's claim regarding BOOTES being dumped at Harefield. I have several 'British Waterways' fleet lists dating from June 1948 to November 1960 all showing BOOTES to be under the control of the Townsend family, laterly as a single motor with Wilf Townsend. Although I do not have a tender form for BOOTES I do know that by the summer of 1967 it had been converted to a house boat.

 

A G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. fleet list dated 14 September 1944 also shows BOOTES to be in service, although not with the Townsend's.

 

I have extensive records of the boats stored at Boyer's pit, Harefield and BOOTES does not appear at all. I am unable to see any time where BOOTES could have been sunk (or partially filled with water) for long enough to cause serious corrosion.

Edited May 7, 2010 by pete harrison

[Laurence Hogg]

I am afraid that the paper trail does not bare out Mr Green's claim regarding BOOTES being dumped at Harefield. I have several 'British Waterways' fleet lists dating from June 1948 to November 1960 all showing BOOTES to be under the control of the Townsend family, laterly as a single motor with Wilf Townsend. Although I do not have a tender form for BOOTES I do know that by the summer of 1967 it had been converted to a house boat.

 

A G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. fleet list dated 14 September 1944 also shows BOOTES to be in service, although not with the Townsend's.

 

I have extensive records of the boats stored at Boyer's pit, Harefield and BOOTES does not appear at all. I am unable to see any time where BOOTES could have been sunk (or partially filled with water) for long enough to cause serious corrosion.

 

Wilf Townsend latterly skippered "Barnet". The funnel of "Bootes" still exists too in a private collection. However what GU motors were in Hawtrey/Boyers pits? At least one small Woolwich motor is visible just right of centre in this picture (by P Weaver), also several Town class motors are shown , some sunk. As all of these are accounted for it means some boats were removed. If a full record exists, a list of all known boats which lay in these pits would be extrememly useful. This is information which would help complete the picture of what is known offically to have happened here.

 

If anyone knows the whereabouts of the original of this picture please could we have a copy if possible. Despite being credited to the "Waterways museum/TWT" it is not in their files.

 

[alan_fincher]

 

Anyone interested in the Basingstoke boats, there have been

 

Previous thread 1

 

and

 

Previous thread 2

 

which talk about "Jester" (believed to be Tilbury), which survives near Old Fishery bridge, Boxmoor on the Grand Union

 

Edited May 8, 2010 by alan_fincher

[Laurence Hogg]

Wilf Townsend latterly skippered "Barnet". The funnel of "Bootes" still exists too in a private collection. However what GU motors were in Hawtrey/Boyers pits? At least one small Woolwich motor is visible just right of centre in this picture (by P Weaver), also several Town class motors are shown , some sunk. As all of these are accounted for it means some boats were removed. If a full record exists, a list of all known boats which lay in these pits would be extrememly useful. This is information which would help complete the picture of what is known offically to have happened here.

 

If anyone knows the whereabouts of the original of this picture please could we have a copy if possible. Despite being credited to the "Waterways museum/TWT" it is not in their files.

 

 

This picture is from th Phillip Weaver collection, does anyone know of any similar to this, cannot imagine anyone taking just one picture.

[pete harrison]

 

Anyone interested in the Basingstoke boats, there have been

 

which talk about "Jester" (believed to be Tilbury), which survives near Old Fishery bridge, Boxmoor on the Grand Union

 

There is an awful lot of guess work and speculation as to the original identities of the Basingstoke house boat conversions. Although TILBURY certainly was one of the boats converted by Floating Homes Ltd. in the early 1960's I have yet to see anything at all that links it to JESTER. In fact my records suggest the boat was broken up on the Basingstoke Canal in 1998 - although I am prepared to be corrected by anybody who can substantiate their claims !

[alan_fincher]

There is an awful lot of guess work and speculation as to the original identities of the Basingstoke house boat conversions. Although TILBURY certainly was one of the boats converted by Floating Homes Ltd. in the early 1960's I have yet to see anything at all that links it to JESTER. In fact my records suggest the boat was broken up on the Basingstoke Canal in 1998 - although I am prepared to be corrected by anybody who can substantiate their claims !

Accepted!

 

I was only repeating, (perhaps unwisely!), what people had previously said.

 

Interesting boat - it has been at it's current location for as long as I can possibly remember, so I can't imagine it has had any out of water maintenance done in decades, though I have never seen any sign of it either being low in the water, or an automatic bilge pump kicking in.......

 

However,

 

Rereading this from one of the previous threads threads I quoted.....

 

Yes that's Jester and she was still there at Boxmoor in late April when I passed through .

 

I owned her briefly in the mid nineties when I bought her in order to get the residential mooring she occupied above Scotland Bridge Lock on the Basingstoke Canal . At that time there were nine or ten houseboat conversions of ex-working wooden narrowboats in that area , most of which have gradually disappeared and been replaced with more modern steel boats . There are two or three left which are now kept afloat by being either wrapped in a big plastic sheet or having a steel box with pointed ends put under them .

 

......I am more than slightly confused, as surely this boat has been at Boxmoor long, long before "the mid nineties".

 

Both myself and other half are almost completely certain that this boat was already moored at its current location by 1982, when we moved to a house that's less than a quarter of a mile away.

 

Presumably Foxglove knew the boat they had owned, when they saw this one at Boxmoor only three years ago ?

 

I'm wondering if they have misquoted the date they owned it, as I can't see how it could have been on the Basingstoke at any point in the 1990s.

 

Very puzzled!

[Laurence Hogg]

This picture is from th Phillip Weaver collection, does anyone know of any similar to this, cannot imagine anyone taking just one picture.

 

Please chaps can we keep this thread just for Harefield and the craft which are and may be there, we are at a crutial time and we need as much information as is out there. We particulary need views from the Boyers side of the Hawtreys pit.

[Paul H]

Wilf Townsend latterly skippered "Barnet". The funnel of "Bootes" still exists too in a private collection. However what GU motors were in Hawtrey/Boyers pits? At least one small Woolwich motor is visible just right of centre in this picture (by P Weaver), also several Town class motors are shown , some sunk. As all of these are accounted for it means some boats were removed. If a full record exists, a list of all known boats which lay in these pits would be extrememly useful. This is information which would help complete the picture of what is known offically to have happened here.

 

If anyone knows the whereabouts of the original of this picture please could we have a copy if possible. Despite being credited to the "Waterways museum/TWT" it is not in their files.

 

I think it is important to differentiate between boats stored at Harefield and boats dumped there. GUCCC stored out of service boats at Widewater (the bit that is now Harefield Marina) as early as 1938 and BWB seemed to have continued this practice, there being limited space at Bulls Bridge. So I imagine quite a few boats came and went as they became non-operational and were then later sold, put back in to service or passed into the maintenance fleet. Pure speculation, but in 1959-61 it is likely that a number of GUUCCC wooden boats were so stored as they were expected to be replaced by the new River Class butties. My own boat Capricorn is unaccounted for from 1936-42 and 1945-1951 and it is likely spent much of this time at Widewater.

 

The Joshers and Clayton rubbish boats were of course dumped in the next gravel pit which was only briefly connected by water.

 

There could well have been 12 Town Class pairs at Widewater but the nmotors at least didn't stay there!

 

 

Paul H

[Laurence Hogg]

I think it is important to differentiate between boats stored at Harefield and boats dumped there. GUCCC stored out of service boats at Widewater (the bit that is now Harefield Marina) as early as 1938 and BWB seemed to have continued this practice, there being limited space at Bulls Bridge. So I imagine quite a few boats came and went as they became non-operational and were then later sold, put back in to service or passed into the maintenance fleet. Pure speculation, but in 1959-61 it is likely that a number of GUUCCC wooden boats were so stored as they were expected to be replaced by the new River Class butties. My own boat Capricorn is unaccounted for from 1936-42 and 1945-1951 and it is likely spent much of this time at Widewater.

 

The Joshers and Clayton rubbish boats were of course dumped in the next gravel pit which was only briefly connected by water.

 

There could well have been 12 Town Class pairs at Widewater but the nmotors at least didn't stay there!

 

 

Paul H

 

Our eye witness people talk of around 24 pairs being dumped/sunk there. Also of note is "Widewater" was split into two, the present "dry" land being severed by a causeway originally, so in effect there were three lakes side by side. It is suspected that the "dry" land may contains some craft, whilst the opening to Hawtreys was only used for a short time it seems according to the BW people who were there that a permanent breach was open into "The graveyard" in the early sixties.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Laurence Hogg

[Laurence Hogg]

Our eye witness people talk of around 24 pairs being dumped/sunk there. Also of note is "Widewater" was split into two, the present "dry" land being severed by a causeway originally, so in effect there were three lakes side by side. It is suspected that the "dry" land may contains some craft, whilst the opening to Hawtreys was only used for a short time it seems according to the BW people who were there that a permanent breach was open into "The graveyard" in the early sixties.

 

You can see in this picture "Widewater" is affectivly split into two, some boats are visible in Hawtreys pit to the left which at this time was connected to Harefield south lake. The pointers show where the 1960's phot by Phillip Weaver was took from.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Laurence Hogg

[Laurence Hogg]

In reply to emails asking for more ariel pictures of Harefield here is a zoomed in on from the 1960's picture and one found took in 1970's. From these you can see how "Widewater" (Harefield marina now) was divided and mainly infilled.

 

Again a plea to anyone with information, we need to know as much as possible about the boats which went into here in the 1950's- mid 1960's. Photographs, articles and any information regarding the boats which were dumped here is now most important. There is a real chance that some excavation and conservation will take place in the future therefore it is essential we know as much as possible about the site in advance.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2010 by Laurence Hogg