Eberspacher M10 Vs Hurricane

[Roger Gunkel]

Speedwheel,

 

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I would assume from the nature and tone of your response that you have a vested interest in these type of units, so if you have, please be up front and let us know.

 

You are quite correct in your assertion that I have not read the report, nor do I need or have any intention of doing so, particularly as everthing that you have highlighted and pointed out confirms exactly what I have said.

 

There are NOW two types of red diesel, as you correctly state, however this is very recent and as I correctly pointed out in my post and previous reports, red diesel had remained unchanged for over 20 years. The whole content of your quote regarding Eberspachers running on red diesel, is based on the spec of the new low sulphur red meeting the requirements of BS EN 590. you are again quite right in that assertion, but it is ignoring the fact that, yet again, it is a massive smokescreen. These heaters, not just Ebers, have been supplied to boat builders for many years, and these same builders have been putting them into boats plumbed into the main tanks, even though, according to the fuel suppliers, red diesel as supplied to waterways outlets was not to BS EN 590 and such a fuel has only become recently available. The new fuel may well be now on the market in some forecourts and maybe in the last 12 months on one or two waterways outlets, although I haven't found any evidence of that so, for this particular thread can be discounted at the moment.

 

For Eberspacher or anyone else to openly state "We have found boat owners using the better quality fuel to have a longer period between servicing, therefore what is needed are people like you demanding this far superior fuel. I am sure you would be happy to pay a few pence more for better fuel." Is to totally ignore the fact that at present it is almost impossible to find that fuel accessible to a boat, and for thousands of other longer term owners, the fuel never existed! Also one of the reasons that a large number of owners chose these heaters was for the easy availability of marine red diesel.

 

The quoted reason from suppliers to customers with failed boilers in my experience is 90% poor fuel quality, because that is the stock reply. When this has subsequently shown to be due to the non low sulphur red, then BS EN 590 is quoted as the minimum standard. Poor installation was certainly not the reason for failure in my case, nor anyone else that I know including Paul Sylvan with his Webasto.

 

Installations in the past may have varied due to poor guidance from manufacturers due to lack of awareness of how their units are used by boaters. Its all very well in retrospect to bring up the incorrect installation card based on hindsight and failure. My own installation by Liverpool Boats was to the original guidelines, but would probably be installed differently now with hindsight. The same with fuel quality, this was never a consideration at installation, but now that has all been changed. Your very statement that BS EN 590 spec for red diesel "meets the specs perfectly", is a clear admission in itself, that the 'available' fuel is, and always has been unsuitable.

 

I'm sorry, but no ammount of bleating about new unobtainable low sulphur red diesel or poor installation, will satisfy or compensate the many users of these systems who were misinformed, mis-sold or misled by the manufacturers and/or suppliers having paid out thousands of pounds each for unsatisfactory central heating systems in my opinion.

 

Others can read into the various cases whatever they want and make up their own minds.

 

Roger

[smileypete]

It seems Gibbo got much better results running his Mikuni once he'd changed fuel supplier:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...st&p=162680

 

Also Julian on Idleness has good results with his Mikuni using a particular fuel supplier:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...mp;#entry479641

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Edit: Correction, Julian on Idleness does in fact run his Mikuni on Gas Oil:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...st&p=162746

Edited February 16, 2010 by smileypete

[nb Innisfree]

After 4 years of poor running and lots of servicing and parts replacement our Mikuni has recently behaved itself and the only logical thing I can think of is a batch of better fuel, we cc so have to take what is available, I suspect ULS diesel is starting to find it's way onto the marine market as it supersedes lower spec gasoil.

[Speedwheel]

Speedwheel,

 

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I would assume from the nature and tone of your response that you have a vested interest in these type of units, so if you have, please be up front and let us know.

 

You are quite correct in your assertion that I have not read the report, nor do I need or have any intention of doing so, particularly as everthing that you have highlighted and pointed out confirms exactly what I have said.

 

There are NOW two types of red diesel, as you correctly state, however this is very recent and as I correctly pointed out in my post and previous reports, red diesel had remained unchanged for over 20 years. The whole content of your quote regarding Eberspachers running on red diesel, is based on the spec of the new low sulphur red meeting the requirements of BS EN 590. you are again quite right in that assertion, but it is ignoring the fact that, yet again, it is a massive smokescreen. These heaters, not just Ebers, have been supplied to boat builders for many years, and these same builders have been putting them into boats plumbed into the main tanks, even though, according to the fuel suppliers, red diesel as supplied to waterways outlets was not to BS EN 590 and such a fuel has only become recently available. The new fuel may well be now on the market in some forecourts and maybe in the last 12 months on one or two waterways outlets, although I haven't found any evidence of that so, for this particular thread can be discounted at the moment.

 

For Eberspacher or anyone else to openly state "We have found boat owners using the better quality fuel to have a longer period between servicing, therefore what is needed are people like you demanding this far superior fuel. I am sure you would be happy to pay a few pence more for better fuel." Is to totally ignore the fact that at present it is almost impossible to find that fuel accessible to a boat, and for thousands of other longer term owners, the fuel never existed! Also one of the reasons that a large number of owners chose these heaters was for the easy availability of marine red diesel.

 

The quoted reason from suppliers to customers with failed boilers in my experience is 90% poor fuel quality, because that is the stock reply. When this has subsequently shown to be due to the non low sulphur red, then BS EN 590 is quoted as the minimum standard. Poor installation was certainly not the reason for failure in my case, nor anyone else that I know including Paul Sylvan with his Webasto.

 

Installations in the past may have varied due to poor guidance from manufacturers due to lack of awareness of how their units are used by boaters. Its all very well in retrospect to bring up the incorrect installation card based on hindsight and failure. My own installation by Liverpool Boats was to the original guidelines, but would probably be installed differently now with hindsight. The same with fuel quality, this was never a consideration at installation, but now that has all been changed. Your very statement that BS EN 590 spec for red diesel "meets the specs perfectly", is a clear admission in itself, that the 'available' fuel is, and always has been unsuitable.

 

I'm sorry, but no ammount of bleating about new unobtainable low sulphur red diesel or poor installation, will satisfy or compensate the many users of these systems who were misinformed, mis-sold or misled by the manufacturers and/or suppliers having paid out thousands of pounds each for unsatisfactory central heating systems in my opinion.

 

Others can read into the various cases whatever they want and make up their own minds.

 

Roger

 

The company I work for do sell Eberspachers but I have no personal interest and it makes no difference to me personally if we sell them or not. I am simply commenting as someone who has quite a bit of experience both with supplying them to customers and feedback I recieve, using them myself and formal training by Eberspacher on installing and maintaining and the issues they have identified on boats.

 

I have had them in the past - both on boats and in camper vans and cars - and have run them under a number of different conditions and have never had a problem (with the exception of low voltage - but that was my own stupidity not the fault of the equipment).

 

They will run fine on non BS EN 590 fuel (this is the advised minimum but it does not state that they will work on a lower grade) but they have to be in a well set up system and have no other problems. I ran mine on central heating oil, taken out of an old tank that was being disposed of, for over a year (liveaboard) and it ran without a hicup. How is stating that something meets the spec perfectly the same as saying that anything of a lower spec is unsuitable?

 

You have always been able to get red diesel to road diesel spec. It may not have been called BS EN 590 but many farm machines cannot run on gasoil spec red and I know the chap who parks his £500,000 combine in the barn opposite me is not going to take chances with the fuel he uses or accept anything that is not up to the required standard.

 

I agree that all of these companies have jumped into the market without knowing what they were letting themselves in for and it has come back to bite them severely. I am surprised that some have not just withdrawn completely.

 

As a point of interest I have heard that pre-2002 units (eberspachers) have much less problems as the design was changed in some way - but I don't know how true this is.

 

I have to say that I would never choose to fit a blown diesel burn boiler on a boat as I dislike the noise - the ones I had came with the boat. My own choice for diesel heating would be a Lockgate Reflex. The one we have is brilliant and I very rarely hear a bad word about them and they are nice and simple.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Speedwheel

[smileypete]

It seems to me the main prob is with starting up on gasoil, when it has reached the combustion and flame detected stage all seems well. To this end I am going to try starting our Mikuni MX60 on white diesel and/or kerosene and if it proves successful I think will fit an extra fuel pump supplied by white diesel or kerosene teed into the fuel line immediately before the heater, this will operate via a glow plug actuated relay which will revert to main pump when combustion is achieved and glow plug switches off. As it will only use white diesel for start up 5lt should last several months or more therefore a small secondary tank will suffice.

 

Does this sound feasible, has anyone had experience with this?

Might be better to have a thermal switch on the heater casing or exhaust, so it gets the better fuel until the heater warms up some.

 

Also slowing the circulation pump initially may improve warmup time.

 

Incidentally there's a lot of discussion on the internet about adding 2 stroke oil(!) to diesel to get cleaner burning, wonder if it would help these sorts of heaters - or not...

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Speedwheel]

Incidentally there's a lot of discussion on the internet about adding 2 stroke oil(!) to diesel to get cleaner burning, wonder if it would help these sorts of heaters - or not...

 

I have a friend who is doing some informal research on this subject with modern high performance 'tuned' diesel cars. He adds two stroke oil to cut down on smoke generated from tuned diesels and it seems to work well.

[luctor et emergo]

<!--quoteo(post=491778:date=Feb 17 2010, 03:07 PM:name=smileypete)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (smileypete @ Feb 17 2010, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=491778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Incidentally there's a lot of discussion on the internet about adding 2 stroke oil(!) to diesel to get cleaner burning, wonder if it would help these sorts of heaters - or not...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

 

I have a friend who is doing some informal research on this subject with modern high performance 'tuned' diesel cars. He adds two stroke oil to cut down on smoke generated from tuned diesels and it seems to work well.

 

 

How does the principle behind this work then? I remember two-stroke moped engines smoking like a Challenger tank on a tactical retreat...

 

Would this work with the main propulsion engine? Would it stop my SR3 from smoking?

[WotEver]

Would it stop my SR3 from smoking?

Now you're just being silly

 

Tony