Insulating

[W+T]

Tell me if i am going to do this wrong and if it wont work please.

 

I am on plaaning to glue a layer of the foil backed bubble insulation direct to the hull between battens (which side should i glue?) which are fixed inplace, i will be doing from the gunnals to the bonded floor which is below water level, then as i have plenty another layer on top (either foil to foil or which ever you suggest) , overall 20mm thick, on top of that caldding it with PVC sheets ( no air pocket as the cladding will be touching the insulation) in the cabin but ply inside the cupboards etc.

The PVC cladding is also a slighlty insulant so also reduces condesation, so on my reconing it will reduce more condensation.

 

How does that sound then?

 

Any advice welcome, please.

 

wayne .

[blackrose]

Tell me if i am going to do this wrong and if it wont work please.

 

I am on plaaning to glue a layer of the foil backed bubble insulation direct to the hull between battens (which side should i glue?) which are fixed inplace, i will be doing from the gunnals to the bonded floor which is below water level, then as i have plenty another layer on top (either foil to foil or which ever you suggest) , overall 20mm thick, on top of that caldding it with PVC sheets ( no air pocket as the cladding will be touching the insulation) in the cabin but ply inside the cupboards etc.

The PVC cladding is also a slighlty insulant so also reduces condesation, so on my reconing it will reduce more condensation.

 

How does that sound then?

 

Any advice welcome, please.

 

wayne .

 

Foil side should be facing in, towards the interior of the boat. However there are two caveats: 1) there must be an airgap between the foil and whatever you cover it with. 2) I'm not sure foil backed bubblewrap is suitable for insulating a boat. (Sorry, number 2 isn't really a caveat - more of a caution that what you're doing seems completely wrong!)

 

Edit: but then perhaps I'm wrong about this - I've just never heard of this stuff being used in steel boats.

Edited January 31, 2010 by blackrose

[Rick-n-Jo]

Do you know what the long term durability of this stuff is - will it just fall to bits in a few years? How about its fire resistance?

 

You invest so much in a steel boat that I would not want to spoil it by penny pinching on the insulation, which is not a particularly huge part of the finished cost anyway.

 

Meself I'd be googling/eBaying for some cheap Kingspan, rockwool or building grade polystyrene.

[koukouvagia]

Tell me if i am going to do this wrong and if it wont work please.

 

I am on plaaning to glue a layer of the foil backed bubble insulation direct to the hull between battens (which side should i glue?) which are fixed inplace, i will be doing from the gunnals to the bonded floor which is below water level, then as i have plenty another layer on top (either foil to foil or which ever you suggest) , overall 20mm thick, on top of that caldding it with PVC sheets ( no air pocket as the cladding will be touching the insulation) in the cabin but ply inside the cupboards etc.

The PVC cladding is also a slighlty insulant so also reduces condesation, so on my reconing it will reduce more condensation.

 

How does that sound then?

 

Any advice welcome, please.

 

wayne .

 

 

A bit of googling by a complete amateur (me) leads me to believe that the insulation properties of foil backed bubble wrap are only half as good as those of rockwool or sprayfoam etc. (Is there a heating engineer on CWDF who can explain simply what K, R and U values are and how they relate to the various insulation methods in a narrowboat?)

 

Also on a building forum someone reported that bubble wrap insulation needed replacing after 7 years.

 

So I'd stick to one of the tried and tested methods of insulating a narrowboat and I'd not want to experiment with something different since it would be so difficult to remedy if the experiment failed.

[DHutch]

K value is thermal conductivity, property of a material that indicates its ability to conduct heat. Units of Watts per Kelvin Meter [W·K−1·m−1]

 

R value is a measure of thermal resistance* of the material, Units of Meter sqd Kelvins per Watt [m²·K/W] R-value is the reciprocal of U-value.

U-value is the overall heat transfer coefficient, describes how well am element conducts heat. It measures the rate of heat transfer. [W/(m²K)]

 

*Not to be confused with thermal resistivity, which is the reciprocal of thermal conductivity (K value) usually measured in kelvin-metres per watt (K·m·W−1).

 

 

 

 

 

We have been doing a project for a large train manufacturing company on options they have for insulation. In this application fire resistance, size and cost of material and installation play a large roll in the grading of possible products as well as thermal and to some degree acoustic performance however there a number of pocket air systems available which can potentially proved a good solution. I dont know what the OP is using but we where looking at a cellulose based product thats currently being used in Scandinavian rail applications under the name of isoflex. Currently they use a glasswool based system wrapped in foil packets which clearly offers very good fire Resistance.

 

 

 

 

 

Daniel

[koukouvagia]

K value is thermal conductivity, property of a material that indicates its ability to conduct heat. Units of Watts per Kelvin Meter [W·K−1·m−1]

 

R value is a measure of thermal resistance* of the material, Units of Meter sqd Kelvins per Watt [m²·K/W] R-value is the reciprocal of U-value.

U-value is the overall heat transfer coefficient, describes how well am element conducts heat. It measures the rate of heat transfer. [W/(m²K)]

 

*Not to be confused with thermal resistivity, which is the reciprocal of thermal conductivity (K value) usually measured in kelvin-metres per watt (K·m·W−1).

 

 

 

 

 

We have been doing a project for a large train manufacturing company on options they have for insulation. In this application fire resistance, size and cost of material and installation play a large roll in the grading of possible products as well as thermal and to some degree acoustic performance however there a number of pocket air systems available which can potentially proved a good solution. I dont know what the OP is using but we where looking at a cellulose based product thats currently being used in Scandinavian rail applications under the name of isoflex. Currently they use a glasswool based system wrapped in foil packets which clearly offers very good fire Resistance.

 

 

 

 

 

Daniel

 

Thanks. That's very helpful. Now we need a dummies' guide with these values alongside the common types of insulation used in boats: rockwool, sprayfoam, polystyrene, thinsulate etc. Such a table would be very useful for anyone weighing up the pros and cons of a particular method.

[DHutch]

Thanks. That's very helpful. Now we need a dummies' guide with these values alongside the common types of insulation used in boats: rockwool, sprayfoam, polystyrene, thinsulate etc. Such a table would be very useful for anyone weighing up the pros and cons of a particular method.

Gahh! Tomorrow....

[W+T]

Thanks all for the replys, much appreciated. Maaybe i should of mentioned that it wil be fitted to a GRP boat, sorry, does that make any difference though in what the affect will be?

 

Shame if its no good as got loads spare, i have found these details on what i have

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alreflex 1L1

 

`This new, second generation product provides a major improvement in terms of

 

thermal resistance over previous foil/bubble products, and is available with a

 

Class ‘O’ fire rating

 

 

High Performance Insulation Systems

 

Meets new Approved Document L requirements for 2002.

Economic solution to achieve U-values as low as 0.25 W/m2K

Meets NHBC Technical Requirements

Alreflex 1L1 & 2L2 are the only BBA certified Foil/Bubble Pack Cavity Insulation and Rain Barrier products

Unique Class ‘O’ fire performance grade

CFC and HCFC free

 

This is also suitable for target U-value calculations for New Approved Document L 2002.

Eliminates water penetration across cavity

Forms integral insulating DPC at reveals

Easy installation`

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I cant find anything about how long it lasts though, well this product. Cant see it failing in the short term though as it is used in house cavitys/lofts etc. Can foil and the bubble material, i guess a type of plastic fail?

 

I found that it is as affective as 2" rockwool, well thats what they say! BUt i have enough to have 2 layers so double the effect?

 

So then if this stuff is no good then what can you suggest for a GRP boat, and best way to fit it.

It will have a stove on board so condensation will be less than with LPG.

 

How thick would i need the kingspan?

 

I know a lot of questions but i need to understand all this so once again thanks and all help welcome.

 

Thanks wayne

Edited February 1, 2010 by W+T

[W+T]

If this is anygood, found a tech site for it

 

http://www.thermal-economics.co.uk/pdfs/Br...s%20iss%202.pdf

 

It shows the two types mine is the 1L1 type.

[JimChuffff]

Tell me if i am going to do this wrong and if it wont work please.

 

I am on plaaning to glue a layer of the foil backed bubble insulation direct to the hull between battens (which side should i glue?) which are fixed inplace, i will be doing from the gunnals to the bonded floor which is below water level, then as i have plenty another layer on top (either foil to foil or which ever you suggest) , overall 20mm thick, on top of that caldding it with PVC sheets ( no air pocket as the cladding will be touching the insulation) in the cabin but ply inside the cupboards etc.

The PVC cladding is also a slighlty insulant so also reduces condesation, so on my reconing it will reduce more condensation.

 

How does that sound then?

 

Any advice welcome, please.

 

wayne .

 

If you are sticking on foily stuff, put the foil facing into the boat. The shiny bit is meant to stop radiant heat loss. If you were sticking another layer on, I'd put it shiny side facing out over the ribs in one big sheet, (shiny side facing shiny side like in the vacuum bit of a vacuum flask - smash yours and see how they do it). I've got sprayfoam and my only grumble is condensation on the battens, so foiling over everyhing might solve this a bit...

 

No idea about glue. It needs to be waterproof as you'll get condensation running down the hull. (I don't think there's much you can do to stop this)

 

hope this helps..

 

Jim

[Tim Doran]

I know this might sound like a cop out, but I think that you should follow the majority and use either kingspan, sprayfoam or rockwool. I have rockwool and should point out that rockwool does not make a vapour barrier, so I sometimes get drips.

 

Save the bubblewap (foil or otherwise) for parcels.

 

Tim

[ditchcrawler]

If this is anygood, found a tech site for it

 

http://www.thermal-economics.co.uk/pdfs/Br...s%20iss%202.pdf

 

It shows the two types mine is the 1L1 type.

You should just note that the U value includs the inerd block wall and is not the value of the insulation material

[Roger Gunkel]

Any inner surface of a boat that is directly in contact with the outside air, eg hull, cabin top, sides etc is going to be the coldest surface, so will attract condensation unless it is completely airtight insulated on the inside. That means that any surface that doesn't quite stick properly, or has air gaps where it goes over battens, is going to allow condensation to form, which will run down to the lowest point it can reach. Any loose fitting or porous insulation material may well keep heat loss down, but won't prevent condensation. In my opinion, the most effective insulation by far on a boat, is spray foam, which sticks to everything it touches. If you intend to use the boat for long periods in cold weather, it's the only thing I would consider if you are able to get to all areas. Being damp on a boat leads to all sorts of problems apart from making you feel miserable.

 

Roger

[W+T]

Ok then i will keep the bubble wrap for my parcels

 

Spary fome then....let me see where i can get the DIY kits from, will have a google and see what you folk can recomend for a good job.

I beleive its tricky to do as you need to get a even layer, i have done a bit of car body work and complete cars, this could come in handy.

 

thanks for the help.

 

wayne

[blackrose]

Ok then i will keep the bubble wrap for my parcels

 

Spary fome then....let me see where i can get the DIY kits from, will have a google and see what you folk can recomend for a good job.

I beleive its tricky to do as you need to get a even layer, i have done a bit of car body work and complete cars, this could come in handy.

 

thanks for the help.

 

wayne

 

DIY sprayfoam kits are available, but to be honest it's not really a DIY job. If you really want to do it yourself I would go for 1" or 2" Kingspan or Cellotex stuck on with Marineflex. Any seams need to be filled and sealed. You can use handheld cans of fire-rated sprayfoam for this (try e-bay) and vapor barrier tape where the gaps are so narrow that you can't get sprayfoam in.

[Bones]

I am told by our local Thrupp bubble wrap expert that it works beautifully when placed in slippers too.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Bones

[W+T]

DIY sprayfoam kits are available, but to be honest it's not really a DIY job. If you really want to do it yourself I would go for 1" or 2" Kingspan or Cellotex stuck on with Marineflex. Any seams need to be filled and sealed. You can use handheld cans of fire-rated sprayfoam for this (try e-bay) and vapor barrier tape where the gaps are so narrow that you can't get sprayfoam in.

 

 

I agree matey, just seen the cost of the kits and for mine it will cost around £250 for a 1" layer, i know its the best from what most say but thats a bit much to me, so next is as you say and use kingspan, i have found loads for sale and at very good price.

 

So what thickness? best way to fit? onto battons with a 1" air gap and plastic sheet over battens then kinspan and cladding?

 

One point of concern still is in my boat the floor is boneded in place so the condensation will run down and settle on the floor not the bolge, is this how cruisers are normaly built, i have had 2 small cruisers in the past and these had bonded floors also, but didnt have them long enough to see about the effects of condensation.

 

Is £12 a sheet of kingspan reasonable, loads on ebay.

Edited February 1, 2010 by W+T

[blackrose]

So what thickness? best way to fit? onto battons with a 1" air gap and plastic sheet over battens then kinspan and cladding?

 

One point of concern still is in my boat the floor is boneded in place so the condensation will run down and settle on the floor not the bolge, is this how cruisers are normaly built, i have had 2 small cruisers in the past and these had bonded floors also, but didnt have them long enough to see about the effects of condensation.

 

The thicker the better but you don't need to go over 2" (50mm) thickness. If it were me I would probably opt for 2" below the gunwhales where there is space and 1" above.

 

You need to stick it directly to the hull with a PU adhesive sealant such as Marineflex, that way there should be very little condensation. Ideally you would spread the Marineflex over the entire surface area of the Kingspan so that it bonds to the hull, but if you didn't manage to do that I don't think you'd have a problem as long as you fill/seal all the seams and gaps between the boards. Yes, as Roger says, there may be some condensation from air inside small areas that aren't bonded, but as long as no more warm air can reach those areas then the condensation should be limited to the moisture in the air that was originally there - which is a very small amount. PU board like Kingspan is a vapour barrier so there's no need for plastic sheet.

 

If you have a search in the build blogs I'm sure there are some pictures showing how others have done it with Kingspan.

 

On the issue of the floor: If you have applied the Kingspan correctly then there should be very littler condensation running down the inside of the hull walls (but you need to do the ceiling too). What type of flooring are you going to have? I would also have some sort of insulating material on the floor which goes right up to the Kingspan.

Edited February 1, 2010 by blackrose

[ditchcrawler]

The thicker the better but you don't need to go over 2" (50mm) thickness. If it were me I would probably opt for 2" below the gunwhales where there is space and 1" above.

 

You need to stick it directly to the hull with a PU adhesive sealant such as Marineflex, that way there should be very little condensation. Ideally you would spread the Marineflex over the entire surface area of the Kingspan so that it bonds to the hull, but if you didn't manage to do that I don't think you'd have a problem as long as you fill/seal all the seams and gaps between the boards. Yes, as Roger says, there may be some condensation from air inside small areas that aren't bonded, but as long as no more warm air can reach those areas then the condensation should be limited to the moisture in the air that was originally there - which is a very small amount. PU board like Kingspan is a vapour barrier so there's no need for plastic sheet.

 

If you have a search in the build blogs I'm sure there are some pictures showing how others have done it with Kingspan.

 

On the issue of the floor: If you have applied the Kingspan correctly then there should be very littler condensation running down the inside of the hull walls (but you need to do the ceiling too). What type of flooring are you going to have? I would also have some sort of insulating material on the floor which goes right up to the Kingspan.

Unless I have got this wrong the OP has a plastic cruiser and unlike a Narrowboat most surfaces will be curved, I do wonder what sort of job it would be fitting Kingspan such surfaces.

[blackrose]

Unless I have got this wrong the OP has a plastic cruiser and unlike a Narrowboat most surfaces will be curved, I do wonder what sort of job it would be fitting Kingspan such surfaces.

 

Well, it depends on what kind of GRP cruiser it is, but I think 1" thick kingspan will bend a bit. Forget trying to bend the 2" thick stuff.

 

You would have to jam it in place overnight until the marineflex had gone off.

[W+T]

This my plastic (GRP Cruiser) which i am refitting

 

 

 

 

Should give an idea of the hull shape.

 

The floor is of plywood with grp bonded edges 2" above the bilge and 6" above keel.

 

 

Dont want to be a pain but if i was to fit the kingspan direct to the hull like i was with the bubble stuff, what is the difference when the bubble is fitted the same way with no air pockets and all joins as with the kingspan, filled but with foil tape. Is it that it is foil faced? just curious.

If i was going to stick the insulation to the hull then there would be no condensation to run....yes?

 

I think i can get away with bending the 1" kingspan and if need be use two layers, i have seen score board type foam sheets , or even do my own, but then there will loads of tiny air pockets on the hull side, mmm not good.

[blackrose]

Dont want to be a pain but if i was to fit the kingspan direct to the hull like i was with the bubble stuff, what is the difference when the bubble is fitted the same way with no air pockets and all joins as with the kingspan, filled but with foil tape. Is it that it is foil faced? just curious.

If i was going to stick the insulation to the hull then there would be no condensation to run....yes?

 

I think i can get away with bending the 1" kingspan and if need be use two layers, i have seen score board type foam sheets , or even do my own, but then there will loads of tiny air pockets on the hull side, mmm not good.

 

The difference is that Kingspan is at least 25mm of polyurethane foam, which has a much lower thermal conductivity than foil faced bubble-wrap. The kingspan is usually foil faced too, but as I said earlier, for the foil to have any effect in reflecting heat back (to the interior) it needs to have an air gap between it and the cladding.

[W+T]

The difference is that Kingspan is at least 25mm of polyurethane foam, which has a much lower thermal conductivity than foil faced bubble-wrap. The kingspan is usually foil faced too, but as I said earlier, for the foil to have any effect in reflecting heat back (to the interior) it needs to have an air gap between it and the cladding.

 

 

I understand now, thnaks fella./

 

Now been looking through this site and come to a finla decision...so i say, lets see if i am correct now

 

Glue kingspan of 25mm to the hull all over and every square mm tight to the battens that will grped into place for fitting 3mm ply to and covering the ply with a carpet type material to prevent any condensation, this will done from under the gunnels to the floor which is grp bonded into place, all cupboards and closed spaces will have ventilation top and bottom.

 

Go on, i am slow but i get there in the end.....i think