Restraint of trade?

[sunshine sport]

I don't think that is actually the case, Chris, but if this question were put to boat owners: "Would you like to have the freedom to sell your boat as you wish and that no unreasonable restrictions on that choice should be imposed by any mooring operator?" my money is on a landlside, "Yes."

 

Dominic, it appears that you mainly sell boats that are moored on their own moorings and potentially boats moored in marinas, so I am not surprised that you are in favour of this issue because you would directly benefit from it and not have all the running costs that a broker or marina operator would incur. ie. Rent, rates, wages, phone bills, mooring fees, heating bills, staff sick pay, staff holiday pay. Insurance, etc. So you feel that you can just turn up at a marina take your pics, then sell the boat and expect the marina or broker to pay all the running costs. Nice work if you can get it.....

Edited January 9, 2010 by sunshine sport

[Athy]

Dominic, it appears that you mainly sell boats that are moored on their own moorings and potentially boats moored in marinas, so I am not surprised that you are in favour of this issue because you would directly benefit from it and not have all the running costs that a broker or marina operator would incur. ie. Rent, rates, wages, phone bills, mooring fees, heating bills, staff sick pay, staff holiday pay. Insurance, etc. So you feel that you can just turn up at a marina take your pics, then sell the boat and expect the marina or broker to pay all the running costs. Nice work if you can get it.....

And whu not, Sunshine? While the boat is for sale the owner is still paying his mooring fees to the marina, enabling the marina to pay those wages, bills, window taxes and so on. Marinas usually offer free mooring for boats which they are selling, so if they don't sell the boat they are actually losing money.

When we sold Batto the problem did not arise, as Springwood Haven does very little brokerage. We just put the boat with Andy Burnett's and let them get on with it, which they did efficiently and effectively.

[carlt]

When we sold Batto the problem did not arise, as Springwood Haven does very little brokerage. We just put the boat with Andy Burnett's and let them get on with it, which they did efficiently and effectively.

But if Springwood did get a large proportion of its income from brokerage, do you not think it would be reasonable for them to prevent a competing business from using their property?

 

Marinas usually offer free mooring for boats which they are selling,

I think you'll find that this is the exception, rather than the rule.

 

There may well be others but I am only aware of one Brokerage marina that offers this service (and their brokerage pontoons are always full of overpriced boats, during the winter).

Edited January 9, 2010 by carlt

[Paul H]

And whu not, Sunshine? While the boat is for sale the owner is still paying his mooring fees to the marina, enabling the marina to pay those wages, bills, window taxes and so on. Marinas usually offer free mooring for boats which they are selling, so if they don't sell the boat they are actually losing money.

When we sold Batto the problem did not arise, as Springwood Haven does very little brokerage. We just put the boat with Andy Burnett's and let them get on with it, which they did efficiently and effectively.

 

Springwood Haven work in conjunction with ABNB - they will have received a share of the brokerage fee you paid.

 

http://www.abnb.co.uk/submenupages/marinas.html

 

I imagine Dominic has similar arrangements with other marinas now he is independant of ABNB.

 

Paul H

[alan_fincher]

So you feel that you can just turn up at a marina take your pics, then sell the boat and expect the marina or broker to pay all the running costs. Nice work if you can get it.....

Huh ?

 

Even if what you are suggesting were allowed, the owner of the boat would still be paying the full whack to have their boat on it's mooring in that marina for the duration.

 

That marina is continuing to collect maybe £200 to £300 per month, in exactly the same way as it would be if the owner was not selling the boat. If that's enough to cover the marinas costs and make a profit normally, then it still will be, surely ?

 

 

I think you'll find that this [Free Moorings whilst on Brokerage] is the exception, rather than the rule.

 

There may well be others but I am only aware of one Brokerage marina that offers this service (and their brokerage pontoons are always full of overpriced boats, during the winter).

Is it, I don't know ?

 

I know of at least three where this is the case, to the extent that I (perhaps wrongly) assumed it's the norm. Unless you firmly expected to get a much better service out of someone charging you for selling and for mooring, why would you conceivable use them ? I would have thought those offering free moorings would clean up, to be honest!

[dor]

I know of at least three where this is the case, to the extent that I (perhaps wrongly) assumed it's the norm. Unless you firmly expected to get a much better service out of someone charging you for selling and for mooring, why would you conceivable use them ? I would have thought those offering free moorings would clean up, to be honest!

In the past it was normal for boats on brokerage in a marina to have free mooring. Many brokerages are now waking up to the fact that they have been taken for a ride by people who want a free mooring, so ask an unreasonable amount for their boat or refuse to negotiate. Those that do offer free mooring usually limit it to a certain number of weeks. You still see the boats doing the rounds as they move to another broker when their free period has expired.

[John Orentas]

I was under the impression that this battle had been fought and won.. There were at one time marina's and other mooring places that would not allow moorers to bring people in to work their boats.. "If you need any work to be carried out on your boat, you must come and see me and I will find tradesman for you".

 

One particular boatyard in my area persisted with this attitude for many years, it didn't affect me but I thought the practise was obscene particularly as they put a mark-up on the costs, thankfully they eventually went into receivership.

[alan_fincher]

In the past it was normal for boats on brokerage in a marina to have free mooring. Many brokerages are now waking up to the fact that they have been taken for a ride by people who want a free mooring, so ask an unreasonable amount for their boat or refuse to negotiate. Those that do offer free mooring usually limit it to a certain number of weeks. You still see the boats doing the rounds as they move to another broker when their free period has expired.

OK, thanks.....

 

Yes it did always seem open to abuse, I know.

 

Perhaps people have got a lot more canny in the 5 years since we bought, then ?

 

I know some still offer it though, though not up until what time limit.

[tony collins]

In the past it was normal for boats on brokerage in a marina to have free mooring. Many brokerages are now waking up to the fact that they have been taken for a ride by people who want a free mooring, so ask an unreasonable amount for their boat or refuse to negotiate. Those that do offer free mooring usually limit it to a certain number of weeks. You still see the boats doing the rounds as they move to another broker when their free period has expired.

Mainly though, I think you'll find that a free mooring is only offered if the boat is moored on the sales pontoons. I cannot imagine that owners of boats in (say) Whilton Marina can effectively make use of their boats if they are crammed in three deep.

The broker I sold my boat through, made it clear to me that I could of course use the boat if I so wished, but he was astute enough to note that as it was unlicenced, I was unlikely to do so. Anyway he sold it inside two weeks so the situation didn't arise.

Edited January 9, 2010 by tony collins

[magpie patrick]

In the past it was normal for boats on brokerage in a marina to have free mooring. Many brokerages are now waking up to the fact that they have been taken for a ride by people who want a free mooring, so ask an unreasonable amount for their boat or refuse to negotiate. Those that do offer free mooring usually limit it to a certain number of weeks. You still see the boats doing the rounds as they move to another broker when their free period has expired.

 

I thought it was more common for the moorings to be free, but if you withdrew without selling the boat, you then got billed for the mooring

[Dominic M]

Just as a matter of interest, Dominic.

 

If I wanted to sell my boat, can I put a poster up on your property, without paying for your services?

 

I could also set up a diesel bowser, next to your tanks, and deal a bit of chandlery from my boot.

 

If you came and asked me to leave would it be restraint of trade?

 

I can't help feeling that a broker selling a boat, sat in a marina that offers brokerage services, is pretty much the same thing.

 

(the diesel bowser may be a bit extreme, though).

 

If the marina does not offer a brokerage service, however, I do agree wth you, in the same way that I think it unreasonable that a marina, who doesn't offer an engineering service, should charge for outside engineers, to work on boats.

There is a big difference. A boat owner is paying rent for a mooring. For you to place a diesel bowser on my property, you would need to rent part of it from me. I may or may not agree to rent you a proportion of my property for that or any other purpose.

Dominic, it appears that you mainly sell boats that are moored on their own moorings and potentially boats moored in marinas, so I am not surprised that you are in favour of this issue because you would directly benefit from it and not have all the running costs that a broker or marina operator would incur. ie. Rent, rates, wages, phone bills, mooring fees, heating bills, staff sick pay, staff holiday pay. Insurance, etc. So you feel that you can just turn up at a marina take your pics, then sell the boat and expect the marina or broker to pay all the running costs. Nice work if you can get it.....

Both actually. I have moorings set aside for 12 - 14 boats on brokerage at Stowe Hill at present so a good proportion are sold from there. I too pay "Rent, rates, wages, phone bills, mooring fees, heating bills, staff sick pay, staff holiday pay. Insurance, etc. " as my initial offer of 3 peppercorns and a lump of coal plus droit de seigneur over my delightful assistant payable each Lady Day was turned down at the start of negotiation. As others have pointed out, the running costs of a marina are what people pay mooring fees for. Without getting further into this debate I think it would be very interesting to see what the OFT were to make of the current arrangement. Given the caravan guidelines, I suspect it would not be permitted to continue in the present form. The problem with the OFT is that their resources are limited and they cannot investigate every complaint.

 

You know who I am and what I do. Perhaps you might care to disclose the same as you are obviously not a disinterested party.

 

In the past it was normal for boats on brokerage in a marina to have free mooring. Many brokerages are now waking up to the fact that they have been taken for a ride by people who want a free mooring, so ask an unreasonable amount for their boat or refuse to negotiate. Those that do offer free mooring usually limit it to a certain number of weeks. You still see the boats doing the rounds as they move to another broker when their free period has expired.

I always offer free moorings, and with no charge at the end of my 20 week term should the boat not have sold and the owner wish to take it elsewhere. If an owner wants a price on his/her boat that I think is unrealistically high, I shake hands, wish them luck, and walk away from it. If brokers find people abusing their mooring offer then the broker is not pricing the boat correctly in the first place and should not have agreed to place it on the market at that value.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Dominic M

[Chris Pink]

There is a big difference. A boat owner is paying rent for a mooring. For you to place a diesel bowser on my property, you would need to rent part of it from me. I may or may not agree to rent you a proportion of my property for that or any other purpose.

 

Well finally we are all in agreement.

 

The marina operator was not prepared to rent a proportion of their property for Mr Shead to sell his boat.

[carlt]

There is a big difference. A boat owner is paying rent for a mooring. For you to place a diesel bowser on my property, you would need to rent part of it from me. I may or may not agree to rent you a proportion of my property for that or any other purpose.

So, if i get a boat and take one of your moorings, drop a diesel tank and delivery pump in the hold and start selling to passing boats, you would have no objection?

[Dominic M]

So, if i get a boat and take one of your moorings, drop a diesel tank and delivery pump in the hold and start selling to passing boats, you would have no objection?

I'll let you fight that one out with Towcester.

[Québec]

I was under the impression that this battle had been fought and won.. There were at one time marina's and other mooring places that would not allow moorers to bring people in to work their boats.. "If you need any work to be carried out on your boat, you must come and see me and I will find tradesman for you".

Off main topic, but fought and won by whom? We know - from unhappy experience - a marina/brokerage where you can only use their 'preferred professionals' to undertake work on your boat in the marina i.e. self-employed individuals who pay the marina a yearly fee in order to maintain their preferred status. They're very good, but you're stuck with them, and it gets particualrly difficult if things go pear-shaped. In fact the marina's small print T&Cs state that , as a moorer, you are not allowed to do ANY work yourself on your boat , external or internal. I suspect lots of exponents of noise-reduced internal DIY behind closed curtains, and regular trips out on the cut to undertake external or noisier work (which is fair enough).

[Dominic M]

Well finally we are all in agreement.

 

The marina operator was not prepared to rent a proportion of their property for Mr Shead to sell his boat.

I don't think that point was ever in contention, so yes, I agree that in renting a mooring to Jim Shead the marina was not prepared to let him sell his boat other than through their own brokerage, or would seek to take a slice of the proceeds if he sold it otherwise. The point was whether or not that is a fair and reasonable restriction, and whether or not it might be lawful. I happen to think it isn't reasonable and may well not be lawful; you think otherwise. Fair enough. I can't really add any more than that other than I suspect that if the OFT were to get their teeth into it, they might well rule such practice to be unfair. Perhaps they wouldn't. Perhaps we shall never know.

[Chris Pink]

I don't think that point was ever in contention, so yes, I agree that in renting a mooring to Jim Shead the marina was not prepared to let him sell his boat other than through their own brokerage, or would seek to take a slice of the proceeds if he sold it otherwise. The point was whether or not that is a fair and reasonable restriction, and whether or not it might be lawful. I happen to think it isn't reasonable and may well not be lawful; you think otherwise. Fair enough. I can't really add any more than that other than I suspect that if the OFT were to get their teeth into it, they might well rule such practice to be unfair. Perhaps they wouldn't. Perhaps we shall never know.

 

You contradict yourself, Dominic;

 

You say that you have the right to restrict Carl selling diesel from your moorings but not the right to stop him selling boats.

 

Or have i got this wrong?

[Dominic M]

You contradict yourself, Dominic;

 

You say that you have the right to restrict Carl selling diesel from your moorings but not the right to stop him selling boats.

 

Or have i got this wrong?

Carl's hypothetical scenario is that he sets up a commercial operation on an ongoing basis retailing diesel from my premises. This is very different from a private boat owner renting a mooring and at some point deciding s/he wishes to sell that boat.

 

The state distinguishes between such types of activity - if you buy a house you are not entitled to turn it into a retail outlet without applying for a change of use which may well be refused. You are however free to sell it. Any private person is free to dispose of their assets without necessarily being considered a business by the state. Otherwise most boat owners would be required to register for VAT when they sold their boat, as they would exceed the minimum quarterly turnover limit.

 

Succinctly, a private person choosing to sell their boat does not constitute a commercial operation, and I contend they should be free to dispose of that asset either through private sale or by appointing the agent of their choice without penalty. If you don't agree with that, fair enough. I've set out my point clearly and I don't want to get into a "dog with a bone" nit picking debate.