Petter PD2 engines

[madcat]

I would like to hear more because in the dim and distant past Halsall had one of these I believe also Im sure Warrior Woman would be very interested too.

What I have heard is that they were good at busting crankshafts and also overheating but I have no experience to back this up.Several people I know have PD2,s and seem to be very happy with them and they do sound good. Perhaps George will relate his experiences with Alton, I think that is Petter powered.

I think spares are becoming harder to find but again I have not needed to find any.

[furnessvale]

I would like to hear more because in the dim and distant past Halsall had one of these I believe also Im sure Warrior Woman would be very interested too.

What I have heard is that they were good at busting crankshafts and also overheating but I have no experience to back this up.Several people I know have PD2,s and seem to be very happy with them and they do sound good. Perhaps George will relate his experiences with Alton, I think that is Petter powered.

I think spares are becoming harder to find but again I have not needed to find any.

 

So far as I am concerned the PD2 engine is much maligned by the so called "purists". I had one in Alton for 13 years and Brian still has the same engine in. It starts first time every time, including in the depths of winter when I have passed more than one boat fitted with a National with the owner struggling to get her lit.

 

Air cooling means no winterising problems. Yes they can get warm in hot weather but I left the engine room doors open and the pigeon box off and blattered off up the cut with a good load with no problems.

 

Tales of broken cranks come from old boatmen and I think earlier models were a bit prone IF YOU DID NOT TAKE CARE WHEN BOLTING THE ENGINE DOWN. My understanding is that the crankcases are a bit weak and can possibly distort if you willy nilly tighten them down. I always bolted at three points then carefully shimmed the fourth before tightening and never had any problems. I also believe that later versions, and presumably rebuilds, had a stronger cintrided crank fitted.

 

I used to ignore the turned up noses when I told others what engine I had fitted.

 

(See you at the Port at Easter or are you going to Coventry?)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Edited November 15, 2009 by furnessvale

[Timleech]

I would like to hear more because in the dim and distant past Halsall had one of these I believe also Im sure Warrior Woman would be very interested too.

What I have heard is that they were good at busting crankshafts and also overheating but I have no experience to back this up.Several people I know have PD2,s and seem to be very happy with them and they do sound good. Perhaps George will relate his experiences with Alton, I think that is Petter powered.

I think spares are becoming harder to find but again I have not needed to find any.

 

They certainly do have a reputation for breaking cranks, George's suggestion that crankcase distortion may be a lot to do with it is supported by Ian Kemp, who probably knows as much as anyone about them. I know of one PD2 which suffered a broken crank within a couple of weeks of a rather hurried installation, that could be a pointer in the same direction. I have a PD4 here with very low hours which has all the symptoms of having a broken crankshaft, it's waiting for me to find the time to strip it down and confirm.

I don't see any reason why people should look down their noses at them, they have a valid place in the history of working narrow boats and they sound good

I don't suppose there are many new spare parts to be found, though

 

I can remember when nobody really wanted Nationals or RNs, never mind Bolinders, maybe one day PDs will be fashionable!

 

Tim

[Chertsey]

Yes, naturally I am interested, although I am already committed, one way or another, despite the issues that it is going to give me in terms of consistency with cabin shape and livery (1937 on the outside; 1960 on the inside?), I would like to hear as much as possible from as many people as possible with experience of them.

 

Just think, it's only for 23 of its 72 years that it hasn't had that engine.

 

I had no idea previously that they were unfashionable. Are air cooled Listers similarly de trop? Interestingly, given how few remain fitted, just prior to getting involved with Chertsey, I went to have a look at Darley, which has one, and the following week went out on Lancing (ditto). I have thus steered a boat with a PD2 for about five minutes.

 

Anyway, I've never been a follower of fashion, and I've already got a National.

Edited November 15, 2009 by WarriorWoman

[Derek R.]

We had a PD2 which came out of a ships lifeboat. We put it in Yarmouth in around 1987, and after freeing the rings up which had stuck in the grooves through lack of use, we stonked all over the cut. Whilst hand starting was a two man affair, on the button it would fire up directly with no fluffing or coughing - any weather. Straight through pipe made some lovely syncopated rhythms through Blisworth, and we could be heard coming!

 

I had heard that oil pressure needed to be watched, as if there was a leak in any of the external oilways - and the cooler joints could be weakened if the cooler was not secured correctly - pressure would go down and a messy engine would ensue, as the fan would blow oil all over the shop, and Petters like good oil pressure.

 

Never had any problems. In fact, we were surprised to hear from an ex-boatman at Sutton's that they had any reputation for broken cranks at all. He said some didn't like them because they were noisy engines being air cooled. Someone in Gas Street said they were nick-named 'Chip Fryers' because of the shape of the air cowling, but it never fried anything for us. Several people gave different theories as to why some broke cranks, but we never had any trouble at all. Nice engine, if a pig to work on due to the ducting.

 

We sold Yarmouth in 1992 having been around the system, over the Pennines twice, tidal Trent, Lincoln, and up to Chester and back, along with the usual rallies and shuffling about we did when living aboard. Then within six months of the new owners boating - the crank broke! What did he do that we didn't? I'll never know, but I did always make sure I turned it over a couple of dozen times before starting from cold to get oil up to the valve gear. But I cannot see that would have made the difference. But PD2's are not the only engines to have broken crankshafts.

 

Would I have another? I've got one! But a three pot. Shhhh!

 

Derek

[Steve Priest]

The Petter PD2 was the engine chosen by Waterways to replace the National diesels in the ex Grand Union boats of the S.E. division fleet, The first one was fitted in the Bexhill in 1956, and in the subsequent years the majority of the fleet were fitted with them. During the last decade of of canal carrying on the Grand Union the majority of boats were Petter powered, both with B.W. and later with Willow Wren. They were fitted with Parsons F type gearboxes with a 3:1 reduction, a third wheel in the reduction box meant that they could retain the National blades, even though the Petters were of the opposite rotation to the National engines. They were significantly more powerful than the National, the Petter-Maclaren version developing , I think, 20 H.P. at 1500 rpm and the Petter 24 H.P. at 1750rpm against the National at 18.5 H.P.

 

They have a reputation for unreliability which I think is largely unjust, and stems from indifferent maintenance in the later years of carrying, and they also have a reputation for breaking crankshafts. There seem to be several theories as to why this is, misalignment, incorrect fuel pump timing, fuel injection imbalance, but personally I suspect that torsional vibration is nearer the mark. Most of these factors can be dealt with, balance the conrods, compression pressure, correct timing, careful installation and alignment, basically good engineering practice, and as for torsional vibration, don't leave it ticking over.

 

They certainly have their place in history, and it is a shame that there arn't a few more around. Personally, I like them, they sound well and go well with the right blade on

[madcat]

Exellent replies,this is what I was after finding out.Keep them coming.

As it happens,as I never tire of reminding people the "big nasty" has a Lister HA2 so I never got involved with Petters.Alton was on my shopping list as was Victoria but Halsall was the only one I looked at and that was that.We nearly got run off the road by a German HGV on our way to view Halsall , ended up half on the grass verge and without much appetite for further travel.Luckily we all survived and 14 years on I think I made the right choice as the first ever narrowboat I ever noticed was Redshank another Big Northwich. Is this a case of be carefull what you wish for ?

[Timleech]

Yes they were known as 'Chip Fryers' (or should that be 'friers'?). Some tried to extend that to Armstrongs by calling them 'tater roasters' because they (Armstrongs) ran so hot, having no ducting to carry the hot air away.

 

I remember on a few occasions in the early1970s meeting the UCC camping boats in Braunston tunnel, on their way home on a Friday afternoon, there were PD2s among them & I'm sure some had straight pipes, that was an 'interesting experience' for the Hotel Boat passengers

 

I have an original McLaren Operators Handbook, "price 7/6" not specifically marine, that gives ratings of 20 bhp @1500 rpm and 24 bhp @ 1800, BS 12-hour rating. 10% higher for 1-hour ratings.

 

Were they marketed by Petters or McLarens as a marine engine, or was this done by a third party as with the Armstrongs (Parsons in that case)?

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

I remember on a few occasions in the early1970s meeting the UCC camping boats in Braunston tunnel, on their way home on a Friday afternoon, there were PD2s among them & I'm sure some had straight pipes, that was an 'interesting experience' for the Hotel Boat passengers

"Birmingham" was the best sounding of the UCC fleet as I remember it. You could hear it was "Birmingham" before you could see it was "Birmingham".

 

I'll ask my brother about his old PD2 when I'm next in contact with him. I know it was fine when he operated the boat, but suffered a bad failure whilst he had loaned the boat out to another operator. Whatever it was needed a big rebuild. My memory was that was a fractured oil pipe or union, of some kind. I don't think it was crank failure, but I'll try and find out.

 

When old engines like this fall out of favour, what happens to them all ? There were dozens and dozens (working) in the 1970s, now sadly they are a rarity. Do they just get scrapped, or is there a large pile of them somewhere ?

 

I think it's a great shame few of the GU boats now have them. They are as authentic as the Nationals or RNs in my view, and far more so than anything else, really.

[Hairy-Neil]

and they also have a reputation for breaking crankshafts. There seem to be several theories as to why this is.....

 

Or perhaps just poor choice of material?

 

IIRC the PD has a cast iron crankshaft, whereas most cranks are a forging. We discovered this when Nuneaton ran the big ends and damaged the crank in the summer of 1996. It was unable to be repaired by the usual method of submerged arc welding and its repair took far longer than expected.

 

I think it's a great shame few of the GU boats now have them.

 

I believe somewhere in the region of 15 GU boats still have a PD2 fitted.

[Timleech]

Or perhaps just poor choice of material?

 

IIRC the PD has a cast iron crankshaft, whereas most cranks are a forging. We discovered this when Nuneaton ran the big ends and damaged the crank in the summer of 1996. It was unable to be repaired by the usual method of submerged arc welding and its repair took far longer than expected.

 

I don't know what PD cranks are made of, but I think you'll find that many modern car engines have cast iron crankshafts. Certainly forgings would have been more common at the time for an engine like this.

 

The PD manual is very particular in saying that Big Ends should be reground if they show any signs of scratching or scoring, presumably because these could be starting points for cracks and ultimately failure, suggests to me that they were aware in early days of crank failure as an issue with these engines.

 

Tim

[Steve King]

I'll ask my brother about his old PD2 when I'm next in contact with him. I know it was fine when he operated the boat, but suffered a bad failure whilst he had loaned the boat out to another operator. Whatever it was needed a big rebuild. My memory was that was a fractured oil pipe or union, of some kind. I don't think it was crank failure, but I'll try and find out.

I remember being impressed by the sound of Bilster's exhaust at the Boxmoor Festival in 1976 when the boat was breasted up with butty Angel which was carrying the band (albeit almost out of sight down in the hold of the Large Woolwich).

 

Bilster then appeared in 1977 at Camden Town and had become the temporary home of Paul and Julia who worked for Foxton Boat Services and were then employed on the contract for laying a second electricity supply cable under the towing path of the Regent's Canal. One day, Paul told me, the oil pressure dropped away unexpectedly and before he could stop the engine it had siezed. I can't recall what happened to the boat after that but I guess it was returned to your brother.

 

 

Steve

[alan_fincher]

Bilster then appeared in 1977 at Camden Town and had become the temporary home of Paul and Julia who worked for Foxton Boat Services and were then employed on the contract for laying a second electricity supply cable under the towing path of the Regent's Canal. One day, Paul told me, the oil pressure dropped away unexpectedly and before he could stop the engine it had siezed. I can't recall what happened to the boat after that but I guess it was returned to your brother.

Yes, that sounds about as I recall it.

 

When I speak to my brother, (he can be a bit illusive!), I'll try to remember to ask him.

 

I seem to recall that the background to this was one of the big tunnel closures in the 1970s. I think possibly my brother lent his boat because it was south of a stoppage - maybe he used a Foxton one in return, to the north of the stoppage ? But it's all a bit hazy now, and I could be confusing with another story entirely.

 

Do we know if Bilster still has it's Petter ? It certainly appears to have an air cooled engine, still, but although I have now seen it at Little Venice on quite a number of occasions, (the last as recent as last week), it has always been locked up, so there has been nobody to talk to.

[pete harrison]

Or perhaps just poor choice of material?

 

IIRC the PD has a cast iron crankshaft, whereas most cranks are a forging. We discovered this when Nuneaton ran the big ends and damaged the crank in the summer of 1996. It was unable to be repaired by the usual method of submerged arc welding and its repair took far longer than expected.

 

I believe somewhere in the region of 15 GU boats still have a PD2 fitted.

 

Was it really 1996 that NUNEATON's Petter PD2 suffered its crank problem, how time fly's by !!!

 

As I have mentioned before I have been working on the history of motor narrow boat engine fitments and changes for some time (amongst other things) and my research suggests that 'British Waterways' re-fitted 68 former G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. with Petter PD2's, with possibly one or two more but I have been unable to confirm these one way or the other. BILSTER is not included in these 68 boats as it still had a National when sold by 'British Waterways', its Petter PD2 being fitted post February 1966 (August 1967 I think) by its subsequent owner.

 

As far as I am aware 10 of these 68 former G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd motor boats are still fitted with Petter PD2's, plus BILSTER plus TYCHO which still retains its 'British Waterways' Petter PD3.

 

In addition to the former G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motor boats 'British Waterways' also fitted Petter PD2's to 5 former F.M.C. Ltd. motor boats, all of which were operating as a part of the South Eastern Division carrying fleet at the time. None of these 5 boats are still fitted with a Petter PD2.

[Chertsey]

As far as I am aware 10 of these 68 former G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd motor boats are still fitted with Petter PD2's, plus BILSTER plus TYCHO which still retains its 'British Waterways' Petter PD3.

Can you say which the ten are? Cassiopeia, Alton, Chertsey, Darley, Lancing.... It would be good to know so I can look out for them.

Edited November 16, 2009 by WarriorWoman

[Derek R.]

I did hear say, and it might be just a tale, that when Waterways were looking to replace their National's & RN's, they took the opportunity to make good a stock of delivered but unused PD2's that were intended for landing craft - the latter being no longer wanted - and that's how a lot of boats ended up with the Petter, that they were never directly ordered for the boats, but diverted from their original destination.

 

Anyone else heard that one, or was someone yarning?

 

Derek

[Hairy-Neil]

Can you say which the ten are? Cassiopeia, Alton, Chertsey, Darley, Lancing.... It would be good to know so I can look out for them.

 

Aldgate, Hadley?

 

 

Was it really 1996 that NUNEATON's Petter PD2 suffered its crank problem, how time fly's by !!!

 

Afraid so.....

 

My daughter was still at school when we did the trip with you and 'Casper' in 97. Oddly enough she's now an engineer working on marine engine design.

[Liam]

In addition to the former G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motor boats 'British Waterways' also fitted Petter PD2's to 5 former F.M.C. Ltd. motor boats, all of which were operating as a part of the South Eastern Division carrying fleet at the time. None of these 5 boats are still fitted with a Petter PD2.

 

I'm not 100% but I think I remember the owner of ex FMC Elk telling me he had a PD2?

[alan_fincher]

Can you say which the ten are? Cassiopeia, Alton, Chertsey, Darley, Lancing.... It would be good to know so I can look out for them.

Someone told me Aldgate had one, but that information may not be current.

 

EDIT:

 

Oops - I see Neil has already suggested it - (it wasn't him who told me, though!).

Edited November 16, 2009 by alan_fincher

[Timleech]

I'm not 100% but I think I remember the owner of ex FMC Elk telling me he had a PD2?

 

The Elk does indeed have a PD2

 

Tim

[Liam]

Was it installed by Waterways or was it a more recent addition?

[Timleech]

Was it installed by Waterways or was it a more recent addition?

 

I have an idea that the Bolinder was replaced (privately) with a BMC (2.2 or bigger) in the 1960s, though I may be confusing it with another boat.

 

Tim

[Hairy-Neil]

Can you say which the ten are? Cassiopeia, Alton, Chertsey, Darley, Lancing.... It would be good to know so I can look out for them.

 

Aquila?

[pete harrison]

Can you say which the ten are? Cassiopeia, Alton, Chertsey, Darley, Lancing.... It would be good to know so I can look out for them.

 

CASSIOPEIA, COMET, ALDGATE, ALTON, CHERTSEY, DARLEY, GREENOCK, LANCING, RUFFORD, STRATFORD

 

plus:- TYCHO (3 cylinder) and BILSTER

 

The F.M.C.Ltd. motor ELK does have a Petter PD2 but it was fitted after it left 'British Waterways'. The 15hp Bolinder semi-diesel out of ELK now lives in the F.M.C.Ltd. motor boat FERRET. Also note that COMET's Petter PD2 was replaced by a Lister HA2 in 1968 (PD2 removed by B.W.B.), being re-fitted with a Petter PD2 in about 1982. All of the other nine boats have been Petter PD2 powered since they were fitted by 'British Waterways', although not neccesarily by the same actual engine.

 

Several other boats are also fitted with Petter PD2's including the iron B.C.N. conversion TALPA / GLENFIELD (replacing a Bolinder ? in about 1975).

[pete harrison]

Aquila?

 

AQUILA had a National 2DM prior to its restoration. Hopefully Mr Priest will be prepared to enlighten us.

 

I did hear say, and it might be just a tale, that when Waterways were looking to replace their National's & RN's, they took the opportunity to make good a stock of delivered but unused PD2's that were intended for landing craft - the latter being no longer wanted - and that's how a lot of boats ended up with the Petter, that they were never directly ordered for the boats, but diverted from their original destination.

 

Anyone else heard that one, or was someone yarning?

 

Derek

 

I have heard that these engines were government surplus, but I do not know whether it was someone "yarning" - worth bearing in mind though !

Edited November 17, 2009 by pete harrison