Sea going boat terminology

[Jason Wilson and Family]

Why do you think this? The full title is International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, and the given Application is "a - These rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels. b - Nothing in these rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessel ............. "

 

There is nothing in them to suggest they are applicable inland - they certainly don't have a lot to say about who has priority at locks. A summit level may be fairly high, but high seas it ain't, and the only ships are hardships.

 

Would depend on which canal you're in, obviously some of the larger canals and rivers would fall under COLREGS, they kind of fall down in the trenches though. Not as if you could make an early and obvious turn in a narrow ditch. BW rules could only supplement on areas where the COLREGS are in effect but would be the main rule one portions of the system not accessible to ships.

[mayalld]

Why do you think this? The full title is International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, and the given Application is "a - These rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels. b - Nothing in these rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessel ............. "

 

There is nothing in them to suggest they are applicable inland - they certainly don't have a lot to say about who has priority at locks. A summit level may be fairly high, but high seas it ain't, and the only ships are hardships.

 

I think this because the words that you have quoted say it is so!

 

Colregs states that they apply "upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels". The majority of the UK Inland waterways system is "connected therewith", and is navigable by (for example) NB Progress. As such, colregs do apply.

 

However, part b is clear that any "special rules" made by the appropriate authority have precedence. BW have made such special rules (which do deal with priority at locks). See here

[Tam & Di]

BW have made such special rules (which do deal with priority at locks). See here

 

You're quite right on that - I'd forgotten that the Bye-laws do in fact have quite a bit to say concerning "Rules of the Road". I think however that you would be hard pressed to maintain that the COLREGS are applicable in all events other than those on which BW have Bye-laws. The lights and shapes set out in the COLREGS for instance include that a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre shall be a black ball over a black diamond over a second black ball; such shapes shall be minimum 0.6m and the vertical distance between each shall be at least 1.5m. Vessels under 20m are allowed to reduce these dimensions, but you don't see a lot of canal boats with them.

[Timleech]

I think this because the words that you have quoted say it is so!

 

Colregs states that they apply "upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels". The majority of the UK Inland waterways system is "connected therewith", and is navigable by (for example) NB Progress. As such, colregs do apply.

 

That strikes me as a barrack-room lawyer's stretching of interpretations

 

Tim

[Naughty Cal]

Can NB Progress really be classed as a sea going vessel? It may have fluked a couple of crossings but that dont make it a suitable vessel for sea passages.

[mayalld]

That strikes me as a barrack-room lawyer's stretching of interpretations

 

Tim

 

It is indeed a stretching of interpretations.

 

I am not to familiar with tupperware boats, but given that Phylis can go to sea in her Yoghurt pot, I would guess that there are GRP craft that are sea-worthy of sub-7' beam?

 

You're quite right on that - I'd forgotten that the Bye-laws do in fact have quite a bit to say concerning "Rules of the Road". I think however that you would be hard pressed to maintain that the COLREGS are applicable in all events other than those on which BW have Bye-laws. The lights and shapes set out in the COLREGS for instance include that a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre shall be a black ball over a black diamond over a second black ball; such shapes shall be minimum 0.6m and the vertical distance between each shall be at least 1.5m. Vessels under 20m are allowed to reduce these dimensions, but you don't see a lot of canal boats with them.

The bye-laws also specify lights and the like, and over-ride colregs there

[Naughty Cal]

I am not to familiar with tupperware boats, but given that Phylis can go to sea in her Yoghurt pot, I would guess that there are GRP craft that are sea-worthy of sub-7' beam?

 

Not that many. They are a little too narrow to be stable enough.

 

Not that many. They are a little too narrow to be stable enough.

 

I have found you one though

 

Shetland Black Hawk

[carlt]

Not that many. They are a little too narrow to be stable enough.

 

I think you'll find the vast majority of sea going leisure boats are 7' or less beam.

 

The deciding factor is not beam but whether or not the underwater profile resembles a skip.

[Naughty Cal]

 

I think you'll find the vast majority of sea going leisure boats are 7' or less beam.

 

Speed boats maybe, cruisers rarely

[carlt]

Speed boats maybe, cruisers rarely

I would guess that there are GRP craft that are sea-worthy of sub-7' beam?

 

I was thinking of seaworthy craft in general, rather than limiting myself to one specific genre.

 

There are very few sea going wooden boats, if I only count lifeboats.

[Naughty Cal]

I was thinking of seaworthy craft in general, rather than limiting myself to one specific genre.

 

There are very few sea going wooden boats, if I only count lifeboats.

 

Well yes but by the same token there are many speed boats that have a beam of well over 7ft.

 

What there are not many of is canal/inland waterway boats that are suitable for venturing to sea which is where the conversation started in the first instance.

[carlt]

Well yes but by the same token there are many speed boats that have a beam of well over 7ft.

Why are you limiting yourself to speedboats and cruisers?

 

The vast majority of GRP leisure craft are 7' or less, in beam, and are suitable for fresh or saltwater use.

[magpie patrick]

Well yes but by the same token there are many speed boats that have a beam of well over 7ft.

 

What there are not many of is canal/inland waterway boats that are suitable for venturing to sea which is where the conversation started in the first instance.

 

At the risk of getting barrack room lawyer-ish I'd tend towards Phylis's stance, by being a bit more rigorous in defining "navigable". There are such things as sea-going canoes and rowing boats, and many small fishing vessels have less tha seven feet beam. BUT, taking Dave's interpretation to it's extremes Colregs would apply anywhere a shallow draft dinghy or a canoe can be used so long as it could navigate continuously to the sea, on the basis that there are canoeists who circumnavigate Iceland and fishing vessels in the Faroes are only five feet six beam. The fact that vessels can navigate both doesn't mean they are suitable vessels for doing both or either. I think you'd be hard put to come up with a craft that complied with RCD for Category A waters (the most demanding category unless I've got their scale upside down) that could also get to llangollen.

 

I found a practical example of this when trying to plan passenger boat services to the Olympic Park a few years ago, the safety requirements for a commercial passenger vessel on the Thames meant it was virtually impossible to design a vessel that could navigate the Thames at Limehouse and then fit under the bridges on the Limehouse cut, because doors and opening windows would have to 2 metres above waterline (from what I remember)

 

 

Why do you think this? The full title is International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, and the given Application is "a - These rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels. b - Nothing in these rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessel ............. "

 

There is nothing in them to suggest they are applicable inland - they certainly don't have a lot to say about who has priority at locks. A summit level may be fairly high, but high seas it ain't, and the only ships are hardships.

 

Which means they definitley don't apply on the Mon and Brec

[carlt]

At the risk of getting barrack room lawyer-ish I'd tend towards Phylis's stance, by being a bit more rigorous in defining "navigable". There are such things as sea-going canoes and rowing boats, and many small fishing vessels have less tha seven feet beam.

Next time I'm on the North sea, slaloming round the Shetlands, Fairlines, Hardys, Raiders, Beneteaus, Dorys, Vikings, Wilsons, Orkneys, Dolphins, Colvics, Maylands, Quicksilvers, Endeavours I'll take a photo.

 

All are equally at home on fresh or saltwater, non of them are sea canoes, rowing boats, speedboats or cruisers.

 

I could then mention all the small rag powered boats, with dismountable masts.

[Teadaemon]

At the risk of getting barrack room lawyer-ish I'd tend towards Phylis's stance, by being a bit more rigorous in defining "navigable". There are such things as sea-going canoes and rowing boats, and many small fishing vessels have less tha seven feet beam. BUT, taking Dave's interpretation to it's extremes Colregs would apply anywhere a shallow draft dinghy or a canoe can be used so long as it could navigate continuously to the sea, on the basis that there are canoeists who circumnavigate Iceland and fishing vessels in the Faroes are only five feet six beam. The fact that vessels can navigate both doesn't mean they are suitable vessels for doing both or either. I think you'd be hard put to come up with a craft that complied with RCD for Category A waters (the most demanding category unless I've got their scale upside down) that could also get to llangollen.

 

I found a practical example of this when trying to plan passenger boat services to the Olympic Park a few years ago, the safety requirements for a commercial passenger vessel on the Thames meant it was virtually impossible to design a vessel that could navigate the Thames at Limehouse and then fit under the bridges on the Limehouse cut, because doors and opening windows would have to 2 metres above waterline (from what I remember)

 

 

 

 

Which means they definitley don't apply on the Mon and Brec

 

It'd be an interesting design exercise, but I'd suggest it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a craft that complied with RCD category A, and was also capable of getting to Llangollen. It would be a bit of a one trick pony, as the various compromises would result in a boat that wasn't very pleasant to spend time aboard, but it could definitely be done.

 

If the Mon & Brec ever gets a connection to the river Usk, Colregs would apply there as they do to most other parts of the inland waterways network (i.e. where they are not superseded by other regulations).

[Naughty Cal]

Next time I'm on the North sea, slaloming round the Shetlands, Fairlines, Hardys, Raiders, Beneteaus, Dorys, Vikings, Wilsons, Orkneys, Dolphins, Colvics, Maylands, Quicksilvers, Endeavours I'll take a photo.

 

All are equally at home on fresh or saltwater, non of them are sea canoes, rowing boats, speedboats or cruisers.

 

I could then mention all the small rag powered boats, with dismountable masts.

 

That is exactly what most of them are, cruisers

[tomsk]

I think this because the words that you have quoted say it is so!

 

Colregs states that they apply "upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels". The majority of the UK Inland waterways system is "connected therewith", and is navigable by (for example) NB Progress. As such, colregs do apply.

 

However, part b is clear that any "special rules" made by the appropriate authority have precedence. BW have made such special rules (which do deal with priority at locks). See here

 

 

 

Dave, is a narrowboat a seagoing vessel as legally defined?

Edited November 4, 2009 by tomsk

[Naughty Cal]

Dave, is a narrowboat a seagoing vessel as legally defined?

 

No

[carlt]

That is exactly what most of them are, cruisers

Then you have just proved your own point wrong.

 

If you define a small seagoing, shallow drafted craft, with a cuddy, as a cruiser, then fair enough.

 

I call them boats.

 

I think you'd be hard put to come up with a craft that complied with RCD for Category A waters (the most demanding category unless I've got their scale upside down) that could also get to llangollen.

A C-class lifeboat.....7' beam.

[Naughty Cal]

Then you have just proved your own point wrong.

 

If you define a small seagoing, shallow drafted craft, with a cuddy, as a cruiser, then fair enough.

 

I call them boats.

 

Many of the craft you have just mentioned are over the 7ft beam which was stipulated. The vikings for instance are 7'2", not much over but enough to make narrow beam canals a no go. Many of the shetlands are over 7ft. The majority of Fairlines are well over 7ft, as are quicksilvers, The dory i will give you though.

 

Cuddies maybe stretch the limit of being a cruiser but they are capable of providing overnight accomodation for a couple of people so weekends away are possible, does this make them a cruiser who knows.

 

A C-class lifeboat.....7' beam.

 

And a draught of?

[carlt]

And a draught of?

Not sure, off the top of my head but less than a foot.

[tomsk]

No

 

 

Thank you Dave. If a NB is not a seagoing vessel is it subject to COLREGS

[carlt]

Many of the craft you have just mentioned are over the 7ft beam which was stipulated. The vikings for instance are 7'2", not much over but enough to make narrow beam canals a no go. Many of the shetlands are over 7ft. The majority of Fairlines are well over 7ft, as are quicksilvers, The dory i will give you though.

Usk was 7'2

[Naughty Cal]

Thank you Dave. If a NB is not a seagoing vessel is it subject to COLREGS

 

Thats OK.

 

Usk was 7'2

 

Should have complained, unfit for purpose

[magpie patrick]

okay, three points

 

1) I suspect that BW in particular have so many rules and regs that there isn't much left for COLREGS to deal with

 

2) We are based on the G and S. I would not for one minute suggest that what is left of COLREGS doesn't apply there, it is a ship canal and we have small naval vessels and tall ships on a regular basis

 

3) I suspect, however, that should a case come to court between two hire boats that collided on the upper reaches of the Llangollen, that any action based on a failure to follow COLREGS wouldn't get very far. I don't think it would get very far if two narrow beam Vikings collided either.