Batteries (again...)

[Ermenilda]

Hi all,

 

Think I am a returning member to this forum if it is the same one I joined about 10 years ago! Plenty of good 'lively' debate and discussion going on I see - I know batteries have been discussed at great length over and over again, I've read and researched all I can find but am baffled with this problem. There is quite a bit (years) of background/info/experimenting/testing etc. behind this but will skip that for now and dive straight in...

 

Approx 2 months ago I purchased 2 X 220Ah Elecsol's to replace the old batteries - they are running down very quickly and do not seem to be taking a charge very well

 

Various tests with volt and clamp meters reveals the following;

 

1) The batteries get to the drastic 'drop off' point and fall to ~10v - they're flat - no two ways about that

2) start up the engine - alternator kicks in along with Sterling controller (boo hiss I know I know!)

3) cable runing into battery #1 = ~40 Amps (currently using a 1/2/BOTH switch [more boo/hiss's?])

4) cable running into battery #2 =~40 Amps

5) voltage increases to 14.8v smooth and quickly (~1 min if that)

6) Same time the voltage is increasing the ~40Amps going into each battery drops like a stone over about 30 seconds or so to hover at somewhere around the 10Amp and less range going into each battery

 

So - from all that I have read, heard from others, tested, experimented, guessed, botched, investigated, prayed for, sold soul for... etc. I conclude the following;

 

1) the alternator is working correctly and seems perfectly capable of outputting the 80A (it is a 130Amp alternator)

2) the Sterling is working correctly by getting batteries up to voltage and holding them there (I did set it to the Gel/Sealed setting but have since put it back to the Open Lead as it was with old batteries in hope that this would increase the Amps into batteries)

3) You cannot 'push' Amps into a battery it will only 'take/pull' whatever Amps it needs/is capable of taking - and in this case it would seem to be only 10Amps or less... having been a totally flat battery ~1 minute before! one persons opinion of this was "either the batteries are full or they're scrap!"

 

so - my question is;

 

"Surely a battery that has dropped to 10v, indicating it is flat as a pancake, should take a high rate of charge for a longer period of time provided the charging system is capable of delivering that power?"

 

There is a great deal of 'other info' I have left out and no doubt some will be raising an eyebrow (or two) at the above along with pointing out I've neglected to state x, y or z but I am more than happy to provide more info depending on what's deemed relevant!

 

Thanks for any advice/help!

[Nickhlx]

Are the batteries definitely "good" ? Reading the web blurb on them they seem to tolerate long periods of low charge well so they hopefully will be OK unless old stock...

 

Is the cable in the charging circuitry adequate with no high resistance points anywhere ( any connections getting hot whilst charging ?) Cables too light in duty / too long for their size are not good.

 

Are you confident in your meters ?

 

Some thoughts till the experts arrive

 

 

Nick

[Justme]

You should NEVER EVER let your bats get to 10v. I would even say 12v is far to low if you do it often.

 

I am no expert but those bats sound totally stuffed to me.

 

Are those 14.8v readings at the bat terminals?

Edited October 20, 2009 by Justme

[Ermenilda]

Are the batteries definitely "good" ?

 

my thoughts entirely (and seemingly a life long quest to actually know how to determine a batteries "goodness"!)

 

I'm holding back on going into detail what others have had to say (but if interested you can find what I found here ) about their experiences with these/the supplier's customer 'etiquette' etc. It's mostly good but a few bad... very very bad...

 

I am currently receiving the bad turning to very very... but I WANT to believe I cannot have such bad luck and something else must be at fault

 

as for the cables - they're bigguns and overall as short as I can get them (about 1m from alternator to 1/2/BOTH Switch and another 1m to each of the batteries) - have not noticed any heat problems

 

Clamp meter is a 'new toy' but seems reliable especially at these Amp's - doesn't work so well on mA as I would expect as settings are 40A and 400A

 

thanks for getting the ball rolling though!

[Ermenilda]

You should NEVER EVER let your bats get to 10v. I would even say 12v is far to low if you do it often.

 

I am no expert but those bats sound totally stuffed to me.

 

Are those 14.8v readings at the bat terminals?

 

in an ideal world eh! in an ideal world... *sniff*

 

all the batteries I have ever owned exhibit this behaviour when they run out of steam - they go down and down then there is a cliff edge of a drop - I know this is going to prompt some to gasp in shock/horror at a) my 'stupidity' to let this happen and b ) my 'stupidity' not to comprehend that THIS is the problem and I am going to knacker the batteries - but this is exactly what I have been trying to sort out for years (yup - the old batteries albeit they were knackered [ex-forklifts] used to be charged for an hour or two and they would last a couple of days at least with more load than am currently using because am skimping as much as possible to eek out what little capactiy I have now)

 

I wish it wasn't the case believe me!

 

but 'all that' aside the fact of the matter here is that the batteries are not taking more than 10Amps when the alternator/wiring/setup is more than ready to 'give it to them' as it manages ~80A when the alternator first kicks in - this has been the case since new but is only recently I finally invested in a clamp meter to actually see what is going on with all those little amps!

 

does this indicate a knackered battery or just one that is a bit slow on the uptake? (har har) like I think/understand Gels only accept charge very slowly and therefore there is nothing I can do about it?

 

yup - the 14.8 is at the battery terminals

[Nickhlx]

my thoughts entirely (and seemingly a life long quest to actually know how to determine a batteries "goodness"!)

 

I'm holding back on going into detail what others have had to say (but if interested you can find what I found here ) about their experiences with these/the supplier's customer 'etiquette' etc. It's mostly good but a few bad... very very bad...

 

I am currently receiving the bad turning to very very... but I WANT to believe I cannot have such bad luck and something else must be at fault

 

as for the cables - they're bigguns and overall as short as I can get them (about 1m from alternator to 1/2/BOTH Switch and another 1m to each of the batteries) - have not noticed any heat problems

 

Clamp meter is a 'new toy' but seems reliable especially at these Amp's - doesn't work so well on mA as I would expect as settings are 40A and 400A

 

thanks for getting the ball rolling though!

 

 

As far as I know clamp meters are not accurate but only useful as a guide and/or for relative measurements - Voltages, when accurately measured ( hence need to have a good / accurate meter) can tell you meaningful things when batteries are "rested" - i.e. not been charged or discharged for say 10 hours... and you will need to know what voltage the system is charging at. However you have said that this is 14.8 volts which sounds good for open cell / wet lead acid batteries when on charge...

 

As Justme said though, if the batteries have been down to 10 volts for any length of time they are probably "shot" - as indicated by taking no significant charging current and "immediately" coming up to 14.8 volts - they are "high impedance", almost certainly from sulphated plates. You have confirmed the cables are good and thick in the charging circuit, so minimal voltage drop there, another thing pointing at the batteries again .....

 

Sorry... it does seem that they have "departed this earth"...

 

I use Trojan deep cycle 6 volt 240 amp hour, and am paranoid about keeping them healthy - not below 12.3 volts and getting back to 100% SoC or as near as I can as soon as poss after a discharge, and am hoping for a long life with them - and "only" about £140 each - Two should do you for those or maybe four...

 

Nick

[Keeping Up]

The batteries are certainly acting as if they are no good. Your tests do indeed suggest that the alternator, controller, and charging system are working fine. About the only other thing that is work checking, I reckon, is whether the batteries have sufficient water in them (it should at the very least be covering the plates in every cell).

 

If they are adequately topped up and are performing like this I would be shouting very loudly at Elecsol by now. However it may be difficult to prove that you have not yourself wrecked them; it is perfectly possible to destroy a battery inside 2 months by flattening it sufficiently, so you have a "catch 22" situation, were they wrecked because they went flat, or did they go flat because they were already wrecked?

[Gibbo]

The batteries are probably quite badly sulfated having been discharged to 10 volts. Ignore what Elecsol say about their batteries not suffering from sulfation. It's bollox.

 

That being the case they are either recoverable or they're not. If they're not, then it's replacement time. Simple as that.

 

If they are recoverable then it will take one hell of a long time. Because they are in such a low state of charge their internal resistance will be very high. Thus, when you start to charge them they will draw very little current.

 

Really you need to get them onto a shorepower charger. Watch the charge current. It will start off quite high but then drop within a matter of minutes as the voltage comes up to the charge voltage limit for that particular charger. Now continue to watch the charge currnet. It will start to increase. But this is going to take a long time. I don't mean a few hours. I mean 24 hours or so. Perhaps even longer. You might actually get them back to serviceable.

 

If the charge current remains low after 10 hours then they are knackered.

 

The cause is quite simply that you've been drastically undercharging them. Either too low a voltage or just not for long enough.

 

Despite what you might hear elsewhere, it simply is not possible to fully recharge from 50% to 100% in less than about 8 hours. Trying to do so results in what you have now.

[Ermenilda]

these are tears of laughter! honest! *sob*

 

they have behaved like this from new - are supposed to be capable of taking a battering (if indeed that is what has happened if the fault lies in the charging system) - have not been down at 10v for any length of time (they bounce back if left alone) - and cost me £460 all in two months ago

 

they can't be sulphated

 

can they?

 

I looked into Trojans amongst many others but £/Ah seemed steep whereas although the Elecsols are a close second I fell hook line and sinker for the sales blurb I guess

 

oh and the clamp meter - appreciate may not be totally accurate but it's more accurate than my blind fumbling about in the dark (all these puns!) and has been a massive help in getting my head around what [relative value at least] of amps are going where

[Gibbo]

they have behaved like this from new

 

You won't like this but here goes, I don't believe you. They were at 10 volts when new?

 

they can't be sulphated

 

can they?

 

Yes they can. Most definately. I can sulfate a battery in a morning.

 

I looked into Trojans amongst many others but £/Ah seemed steep whereas although the Elecsols are a close second I fell hook line and sinker for the sales blurb I guess

 

You're not alone. Many others did too.

[Ermenilda]

Oh dear - my worst fears are being realised - surely a nightmare...

 

thanks for the input Keeping Up - they are sealed so no chance of checking the water levels

 

it's hard to keep positive but I simply refuse I have caused this

 

Gibbo - pleasure to 'meet you' I've read a lot of your work and many thanks for the response

 

how can a set of knackered forklift batteries setup on the same charging system last a couple of days off a few hours charge for the last couple of years whereas these batteries from brand new lasted a couple of days then gradually over the next couple of weeks were needing more and more regular charging - less and less load being put on them because of the fear of letting them 'fall off the cliff' to the point that it's now the equivalent of 1 hour charging = 1 hour use

 

to me it seems like they were MEGA pumped prior to despatch and all along they have only taken this small charge meaning that for the first few weeks I was fighting a loosing battle going one step forward/two back with the charging to the point I fell off the cliff and have little chance of climbing back up!

 

Others have stated the BS of Elecsol's claims but surely that is some contravention of some law somewhere? (someone on here is 'big up' on stating the law I noticed on other posts? any input most appreciated!)

 

At present I can't even get the guy to send me an invoice for them let alone begin 'discussions' about the likelihood they may be faulty! I too am experiencing exactly the same style of conversation others are reporting ie extremely brief and hung up on before drawing breath! He was all too happy to be calling ME when he was selling them!

 

 

*deep breath*

 

OK - so the general consensus is that they're knackered or at the very least 'recoverable' - that is not good enough - I have put up with 'recovered' batteries for years - I notice that the 'fix' from Elecsol for others that have experienced this problem is to put them on a mains charger for 2-3 days and then start using them again and everything will be alright.

 

surely that means all I will be doing is 'setting back the clock' to when they were delivered and within a couple of months I will be going through the whole rigmarole again!

 

Isn't that just an admission that there is an inherent problem with these batteries?!? it is an equalizing charge trying to blast off the sulphation! that's all

 

Others have simply given up on the service they have received and gone out and purchased different batteries - woah! mega ££££'s

 

to think how long I spend meticulously trying to pick out the 'right bit of kit' to purchase as an upgrade and have such bad luck as this... I am now actively turning my research towards solar panels (again) but am quite literally freaked out whether a similar story will unfold once I have forked out £££ only to find that in practice they don't work so well/"should have purchased another model" etc.

 

what to do...

[Jim and Paula]

Batteries in a nut shell ------

Keep them charged, NEVER let them fall below 65%. Assuming standard ‘leisure’ batteries.

Better to have a big capacity bank and only let them drop to say 70% than have a smaller capacity bank and let them drop to below 50%. Keep them charged is the ‘golden rule’!! They don’t like to be discharged!!!!

The real answer, for live-aboards is to go for the ‘milk float’ type 2V deep cycle cells and to look after them. We have come across boaters with these types of batteries that have lived with them for fifteen years and more and are still going strong. We only wish we could find the room to house them ourselves and we would go the same way.

Currently, around £72 for a reasonable 110AHr leisure battery, such a shame that solar is so expensive and grants are only available to land lubbers.....

Sitting back and awaiting attack........

[Ermenilda]

You won't like this but here goes, I don't believe you. They were at 10 volts when new?

 

no no - sorry - really don't want to let this get misunderstood and fall off the rails

 

they were pumped up and I couldn't honestly tell you the exact .?? but I would say 12.6 7 8 ish even

 

Yes they can. Most definately. I can sulfate a battery in a morning.

 

seriously? can't someone just invent a better technology than this! [joke - I am amazed at battery technology and have great respect for the mighty battery god if he/she's listening!) they cost ***** hundreds of £££'s and you are saying it is possible to sulphate a battery in a few hours! I've never heard that but am NOT gonna try and derail this conversation into how long it takes to sulphate a battery (I thought it was due to continued abuse over weeks/months/years not minutes/hours) - jeesh it's like walking on eggshells! the things stand up to serious abuse in some environments why is it so touchy touchy nicey nicey once you stick one on a boat!

 

You're not alone. Many others did too.

 

perhaps some of them are also the one's I heard mention of Elecsol spending 'most of their time in court' with?

 

 

arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggghhhhhhh sorry - I just had to get it out

 

now what....

 

Elecsol is gonna try and argue the toss about whether I did it and I vice versa - that is provided I can a) get them on the phone b ) actually have more than a 12 second conversation

 

why isn't there just some conclusive test for a batteries 'goodness' (don't answer that - I KNOW there isn't - at least nothing I have ever heard of... drop tests don't really do it - specific gravity doesn't really do it - a volt meter doesn't really do it - an ammeter doesn't really do it - green eggs and ham don't really do it mutter mutter mutter....

[Ermenilda]

Batteries in a nut shell ------

Keep them charged, NEVER let them fall below 65%. Assuming standard ‘leisure’ batteries.

 

how does one know when a battery is at 65%? I guess you're talking about battery monitoring equipment but I've seen many a post on here that 'some' don't agree these are neccessary (that 'kind' of thing - not trying to kick that old chestnut off again!) but what I mean is that 'some' feel they are able to keep their particular batteries/setup balanced without the need for them. I'm up for giving one a go for sure but when I've just shelled out £££ on batteries - where's this never ending flow of money coming from?

 

Better to have a big capacity bank and only let them drop to say 70% than have a smaller capacity bank and let them drop to below 50%. Keep them charged is the ‘golden rule’!! They don’t like to be discharged!!!!

 

I agree - but I mean really what's the point of having a battery in the first place then if you can't use it for fear of it giving up the ghost and sulphating itself? Of course I understand the need for them but this reasoning makes one a slave to the batteries which is only really operating as a ballast rather than an energy reservoir

 

The real answer, for live-aboards is to go for the ‘milk float’ type 2V deep cycle cells and to look after them. We have come across boaters with these types of batteries that have lived with them for fifteen years and more and are still going strong. We only wish we could find the room to house them ourselves and we would go the same way.

 

that's what I've just taken out! they were good ballast too but to be honest were in a bit of a mess and I was worried about acid leaking etc. I'm serioulsy thinking about putting them back in now

 

Currently, around £72 for a reasonable 110AHr leisure battery, such a shame that solar is so expensive and grants are only available to land lubbers.....

Sitting back and awaiting attack........

 

so this makes me think just spend the £££ on getting 6 X 110Ah and let the alternator put 10A into each of them...

 

no attack from me! I am massively appreciative of all the comments! thank you!

 

it's just so depressing to have shelled out for these and this is what I get in reality

[DHutch]

... 2 months ago I purchased 2 X 220Ah Elecsol's....

Not exactly what you want to hear, and the may yet work out, but from my experience thats not a good line to start with im afraid.

- We certainly found if left for a month or so they have a tenancy to self-discharge and the never recovered.

- Our bought to replace out bank of four 8yo exides lasted around 10 months and were replaced with the ones currently in the boat four years ago.

 

 

Daniel

[Ermenilda]

oh - one last thing to add

 

Gibbo - you said about getting them onto a mains charger - I didn't say anything about when I try to charge them off the generator via a battery charger on the boat - same thing although I haven't measured the actual current (spent all the time concentrating on whether I had a charging problem with engine/alternator/cables/switches etc.)

 

the needle on the battery charger stays low (sorry I don't know the actual read out! how poor is that!) whereas with the old forklifts being charged this way they sucked up the current and the needle was high dropping very gradually if at all

 

Over the weeks the generator has been running for hours with an extension lead into the boat to charge laptop etc. during all this so can actually have electricity to work etc. and the battery charger is crocodile clipped 'permanently' to the batteries

 

these batteries have had every opportunity to 'take' the amps I've been offering them

 

Not exactly what you want to hear, and the may yet work out, but from my experience thats not a good line to start with im afraid.

- We certainly found if left for a month or so they have a tenancy to self-discharge and the never recovered.

- Our bought to replace out bank of four 8yo exides lasted around 10 months and were replaced with the ones currently in the boat four years ago.

 

 

Daniel

Hi Daniel - many thanks for the feedback but just wanna be certain what you mean here

 

are you saying Elecsols were purchased to replace the Exides but they only lasted 10 months before you then decided/had to replace them with another make which have now so far lasted you 4 yrs and counting?

 

have I got it right?

[Nickhlx]

If you need an inexpensive solution to get you buy whilst you think about the way forward, one of the chaps on here (Vince1969) has been passing on batteries that have had light UPS standby duty for their allotted time, get changed automatically, and only apparently had "light use".

 

I can not vouch for them personally (yet) but I am sufficiently convinced to get a couple for a non-essential use myself, although several others have been buying them and been very happy with them for their domestic bank. At the last look they were Delphi Freedom, and I believe that they changed either their manufacturer and/or their specification during their life, although kept the same name. I am sure Vince won't mind if you PM him for more info and to see if he has any spare at the moment.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Nick

[Gibbo]

Gibbo - you said about getting them onto a mains charger - I didn't say anything about when I try to charge them off the generator via a battery charger on the boat - same thing although I haven't measured the actual current (spent all the time concentrating on whether I had a charging problem with engine/alternator/cables/switches etc.)

 

the needle on the battery charger stays low (sorry I don't know the actual read out! how poor is that!) whereas with the old forklifts being charged this way they sucked up the current and the needle was high dropping very gradually if at all

 

Re-read my post. Particularly the part about how long it takes. A few years ago Mrs Gibbo sulfated the batteries on our boat. It took 3 days of continuous equalise charge to get them right again.

 

If Elecsols are discharged to 50% it will take an absolute minimum of 10 hours charge to get them back up to 100%

 

5 or 6 hours will get them to 90% but that remaining 10% is now sulfation that will probably stay.

 

Do that same useage cycle again 5 times and the batteries are now only 60% the capacity they were at the beginning of the week.

 

Do it for a month and they are knackered.

[Naughty Cal]

I think the answer is to get yourself a new set of batteries, audit your power consumption and size your battery bank to suit your power useage. Then seriously think about your battery charging regime. Charging for two hours is never going to fully recharge your batteries and will probably do them more harm than good. Letting them drop to anywhere near 10v is just silly and wasting servicable batteries.

[smileypete]

how does one know when a battery is at 65%? I guess you're talking about battery monitoring equipment but I've seen many a post on here that 'some' don't agree these are neccessary (that 'kind' of thing - not trying to kick that old chestnut off again!) but what I mean is that 'some' feel they are able to keep their particular batteries/setup balanced without the need for them.

 

You can do without a proper battery monitor if you have an accurate battery voltmeter and decent charge ammeter, and know how to interpret them.

 

The alternative is to rely on luck, and you might need lots of it, especially when using maintenance free Elecsols in a liveaboard situation.

 

Probably much better to get some cheap batteries and a proper battery monitor.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited October 21, 2009 by smileypete

[Gibbo]

A rule I learnt several years ago that applies to the average boater:-

 

However long you think it takes to fully recharge lead acid batteries, treble it and you might be close.

 

It does indeed seem to be about right.

[Roger Gunkel]

One thing that I can't see anywhere in your posts, is exactly what you are powering from your batteries that are flattening them in such a short space of time. Some idea of the load that you are placing on them, might help to diagnose the problem.

 

Roger

[GSer]

Perhaps it time to throw away the battery cataloges and get the generator mags out.

 

A nice, built in, water cooled, cocooned 'on demand' diesel generator starts to look an attractive option if you look at all the problems people have with batteries.

 

Paul

[Gibbo]

Perhaps it time to throw away the battery cataloges and get the generator mags out.

 

A nice, built in, water cooled, cocooned 'on demand' diesel generator starts to look an attractive option if you look at all the problems people have with batteries.

 

Paul

 

Aye, just the thing to light the toilet up at 3.00 AM

[GSer]

Aye, just the thing to light the toilet up at 3.00 AM

 

Yep!

 

OK then perhaps I'd keep one 110ah battery with a little inverter to run emergency lighting, nightime pumps and starting services. Are these cocooned generators noisy then? Ones i've heard have seemed very quiet but then again these have been at shows and events not at the dead of night. Certainly no noisier than some of these diesel cab heaters.

 

Paul