anti-freeze ?

[n.b.Goldie]

Apart from its anti-freeze properties most anti-freeze has anti-corrosion properties as well which must be worth having if only to help preserve a very expensive engine.

 

Whilst at our local motor parts factors I could not believe how cheap 'distilled water' is. Just a couple of quid per five liters so I drained the system and refilled with 50/50 anti-freeze and distilled water which will help even further to prevent corrosion and 'furring'.

 

Belt & braces, me.

 

Ditchdabbler

[NB Alnwick]

Apart from its anti-freeze properties most anti-freeze has anti-corrosion properties as well which must be worth having if only to help preserve a very expensive engine.

 

Whilst at our local motor parts factors I could not believe how cheap 'distilled water' is. Just a couple of quid per five liters so I drained the system and refilled with 50/50 anti-freeze and distilled water which will help even further to prevent corrosion and 'furring'.

 

Belt & braces, me.

 

Ditchdabbler

 

There are plenty of good quality corrosion inhibitors on the market - we use 'Morris Ankorsol' which can also be added to anti-freeze. Ethylene Glycol in itself does not possess good anti-corrosion properties and it is extremely toxic as well as being expensive.

[andywatson]

Can I use this thread to ask my own question? Well I will anyway.. My boat is 10 years old, some say that anti freeze should be changed regularly but i've never changed mine, was still ok last winter in -13 or so..

 

As for fresh water, I drain down the whole system and even blow through the pipes and the pump. It helps if the fitting of the pipes allows for this.

 

 

Reputedly the anti-freeze properties remain well after the corrosion inhibitive properties have declined.

 

I test my anti-freeze with a hydrometer type tester, but just to make sure put a sample in the freezer.

I changed my engine anti-freeze this year.

The hydrometer test predicted freezing at -23C. The freezer sample was turning to slush at this temperature which was measured with a lab thermometer.

 

I think blowing out the water from the domestic system with air is a sound idea.

I will put a suitable valve into the water supply of my next boat to facilitate this.

[gazza]

snip

 

In my view anti-freeze in this country, is largely marketing 'umbug - designed to seperate us from our hard earned cash.

 

are you talking marine specific or anti-freeze in the automotive field? both of which require adequate strength of antifreeze in a closed loop cooling system, especially little used craft/vehicles

 

 

i have had to deal with a couple of cars that had too weak a solution of antifreeze. one was a ford pinto in a capri. that got away with trying to be started with a frozen block. cambelt didnt strip and amazingly the core plugs were ok. it had stood for a day. admittedly it was very cold that year (pos 95?) 

 

a vauxhall cavalier was not so luck, belt and core plugs.

 

for what its worth, anti freeze will be stopping in the bmc fitted to the elysian.

 

plenty of raw water cooled boats have ended up with frost damage due to not being winterised properly

[NB Alnwick]

are you talking marine specific or anti-freeze in the automotive field? both of which require adequate strength of antifreeze in a closed loop cooling system, especially little used craft/vehicles

>snip<

 

I am only really talking about situations where the engine is inside the boat and adequately protected.

My real concern about the chemical is the way it is disposed of - even with the toxic effects on wildlife well known, people still pour waste anti-freeze into the canal or the hedgerow.

 

It isn't necessary to drain anti-freeze and replace it every year or even at all - it may need topping up occasionally but once it is in a cooling system it can safely stay there. Nevertheless, if it does leak or if it is drained out, then it must be disposed of safely and this may be a costly exercise . . .

[gazza]

I am only really talking about situations where the engine is inside the boat and adequately protected.

My real concern about the chemical is the way it is disposed of - even with the toxic effects on wildlife well known, people still pour waste anti-freeze into the canal or the hedgerow.

 

It isn't necessary to drain anti-freeze and replace it every year or even at all - it may need topping up occasionally but once it is in a cooling system it can safely stay there. Nevertheless, if it does leak or if it is drained out, then it must be disposed of safely and this may be a costly exercise . . .

 

i thought this was what you were driving at. the only time i change coolant is if a pump, radiator or cylinder head has to come off. modern antifreeze with corrosion inhibitors are very good and last many many years. it has always amazed me the fashion for draining and refilling perfectly good antifreeze in the motorcycle world - especially off road circles. the dopes even pay upwards of a fiver a litre for premixed stuff in a posh bottle

 

 

totally agree with the disposal of waste fluids. too many seem to flick the bilge pump on when under way.....

[n.b.Goldie]

Reputedly the anti-freeze properties remain well after the corrosion inhibitive properties have declined.

 

I test my anti-freeze with a hydrometer type tester, but just to make sure put a sample in the freezer.

I changed my engine anti-freeze this year.

The hydrometer test predicted freezing at -23C. The freezer sample was turning to slush at this temperature which was measured with a lab thermometer.

I think blowing out the water from the domestic system with air is a sound idea.

I will put a suitable valve into the water supply of my next boat to facilitate this.

 

Is this was how anti-freeze works in that it prevents the water from freezing into a solid block? The resulting 'slush puppy' would have a fair amount of liquid in it to prevent expansion from destroying anything, excess liquid being diverted to the expansion tank in the same manner as when it expands due to heat.

 

I guess if I'm wrong I will soon find out!

[NBMike]

I'd say "yes" for the engine, assuming it is a closed circuit (skin tank) cooled type - others will say it's not required.

 

Yes for central heating, too.

 

Fresh water system most people don't bother, particularly if it's plastic rather than copper plumbing.

 

Leave taps open though, which allows some relief of pressure if pipe contents start to freeze, (allegedly!).

 

Most people don't drain the fresh water tank - what is yours made of, though, as I can imagine some will damage easier than others.

 

One of the most susceptible items appears to be Morco/Paloma/Rinnai type instantaneous water heaters, largely because they can quickly get chilled by cold winds blowing down the flue. They do definitely suffer frost damage, so should be drained if the boat is going to be left unheated.Others will give different advice, I'm sure - it's a forum speciality!

And that doesn't mean turning off the pump and opening a hot tap as one member at my moorings thought.

Mike

[mike-h]

We move aboard in November and keep the fires going till March - its cheaper than heating the house and the Morso Squirrel with back burner is the best 'anti-freeze' we have ever had . . .

 

 

Dont you have to keep the pump going if theres a back burner? What happens if / when it fails!? I had boiling water & steam pouring out of the header tank within a couple of minutes of forgetting to turn on the pump. Hence my worry about when it packs up with the stove blazing away.

[nb Innisfree]

As a safety measure we always try to remember to use cold water, i.e. straight from the tank and not the calorifier, for drinking or cooking just in case antifreeze, which is toxic, should leak from the heating coil into domestic hot water. I think potable antifreeze is available but don't know how effective it is in an engine.

[blackrose]

Adding an inhibitor such as Morris 'Ankorsol' will help to minimise the effects of corrosion in the engine coolant and prevent microbe growth in the central heating - that is what we do. We certainly would not consider adding anything to our fresh water.

 

I still believe that, in a properly designed boat, there should be no need to add ethylene glycol to an engine's cooling system and although boats have engine drip trays etc., many marine engines are cooled by the circulation of raw water. In such cases, there is no practical means of preventing the anti-freeze from polluting the surrounding water.

 

If there is a serious risk of an engine freezing while the boat is occupied and heated, then I would suggest that it would be better to revisit the design of the engine room rather than take on gallons of poisonous liquid. And, as suggested by Phylis, if an electrical hook-up is available, a small heater would probably help.

Obviously I wasn't including raw water cooled engines when I was talking about the use of anti-freeze / coolant. On a closed loop system there's no reason for anti-freeze to get into the waterway - anymore than there's any reason for engine oil to get into the waterway, or for that matter the inhibitor that you don't mind using!

The bottom line is that my engine manufacturer recommends the use of a 50% mixture of anti-freeze with water and I thinlk I will follow their advice rather than yours.

Edited October 18, 2009 by blackrose

[blackrose]

Dont you have to keep the pump going if theres a back burner? What happens if / when it fails!? I had boiling water & steam pouring out of the header tank within a couple of minutes of forgetting to turn on the pump. Hence my worry about when it packs up with the stove blazing away.

Another good reason to have a convection / gravity run backboiler system (without a pump) on a solid fuel stove.

Its not always possible of course, depending on length of run and the number of rads, but it would always be my first option - simple systems are often the best.

Edited October 18, 2009 by blackrose

[NB Alnwick]

Obviously I wasn't including raw water cooled engines when I was talking about the use of anti-freeze / coolant. On a closed loop system there's no reason for anti-freeze to get into the waterway - anymore than there's any reason for engine oil to get into the waterway, or for that matter the inhibitor that you don't mind using!

The bottom line is that my engine manufacturer recommends the use of a 50% mixture of anti-freeze with water and I thinlk I will follow their advice rather than yours.

 

I certainly wouldn't propose to offer advice that is contrary to that provided by an engine's designer or manufacturer. My main concern about Ethylene Glycol is the huge quantities that are used in many marine applications (if we used it on our boat we would need to add something like 60 Litres of neat chemical to our engine cooling system) which will not only add to the cost of boating but also pose a serious problem in disposing of it when the system is drained down. Many people fail or forget to appreciate the danger that this sweet and pleasant tasting chemical poses to all forms of wild life, pets and humans (especially children) and, as a result they tip it into the hedgerows, down drains and into the cut. In some countries, there have been campaigns to get the product banned and here in Britain there has been a petition to the Prime Minister to have a bitter tasting ingredient added to Ethylene Glycol to minimise the dangers to children.

 

The real point of my posts on this subject is that: if there is a safer way of preventing engine coolant from freezing (such as insulation and temperature control) then that must be preferable to using this toxic cocktail. On the other hand, and if there is no other way, it is essential that antifreeze is treated with proper respect and disposed of through a specialised waste disposal company. Note that the safety data sheets issued for Ethylene Glycol usually specify the wearing of protective eyewear and rubber gloves when handling it.

[pugwash61]

Apart from its anti-freeze properties most anti-freeze has anti-corrosion properties as well which must be worth having if only to help preserve a very expensive engine.

 

Whilst at our local motor parts factors I could not believe how cheap 'distilled water' is. Just a couple of quid per five liters so I drained the system and refilled with 50/50 anti-freeze and distilled water which will help even further to prevent corrosion and 'furring'.

 

Belt & braces, me.

 

Ditchdabbler

 

 

 

Sorry Ditchdabbler, but you've just done your dough. The correct name for distilled water is "DE-ionized water. In that it is water, that has been distilled, in order to remove trace elements of iron from it. Unfortunately, your engine block is almost defiantly made from cast iron & will render your De-ionized water back to an equivalent of ordinary tap water. This is why we should never de-cant into metal cans, or even use a metal funnel when topping up batteries.

[soldthehouse]

How do you make antifreeze

[pugwash61]

How do you make antifreeze

 

 

 

Is there a punchline coming?

[soldthehouse]

Is there a punchline coming?

maybe

[Guest]

Hide her nightgown

[soldthehouse]

Hide her nightgown

 

[pugwash61]

Well I believe it has something to do with Ethel?

[soldthehouse]

Well I believe it has something to do with Ethel?

Ethel hid the nightgown?

[FadeToScarlet]

Not so! My statement applies equally to Baldock and I'll warrant that, as built, Baldock was certainly not intended to have the engine (however expensive) filled with anti-freeze. The boat was designed for commercial use, all the year round, and the boatmen would have kept the engine running for most of the daytime and in extreme cold weather, they would probably have covered the engine with something (or taken other precautions) at night to keep it warm - after all it may not be possible to drain down every last bit of coolant without considerable effort. My comment regarding the insulating properties of the water will also apply - I guess that Baldock must draw at least three feet of water in the vicinity of the engine room and I'll guarantee that you have never experienced a situation where that water freezes solid - so with just the top inch or so of canal water frozen, Baldock's engine room will have a jacket of water, above freezing point, insulating its bottom and most of its sides.

 

Having said that, as Baldock is no longer being used for its original purpose, it may be sensible to add some insulation and/or heating to the engine room - after all you have made alterations elsewhere to provide comfortable accomodation for yourself - so why leave your engine out in the cold?

 

Presumably, as built, working boats tended to have raw-water cooled engines anyway (albeit with proper mudboxes, unlike my boat!) so anti-freeze couldn't have been used anyway?

 

I might of course be mistaken, but I thought that skin-tanks and closed-circuit cooling systems were a comparatively recent innovation?

[MoominPapa]

Sorry Ditchdabbler, but you've just done your dough. The correct name for distilled water is "DE-ionized water. In that it is water, that has been distilled, in order to remove trace elements of iron from it. Unfortunately, your engine block is almost defiantly made from cast iron & will render your De-ionized water back to an equivalent of ordinary tap water. This is why we should never de-cant into metal cans, or even use a metal funnel when topping up batteries.

No no no. Iron and ion are two completely different things. Ions are charged atoms, and for the purposes of this discussion, the form in which stuff exists when it is dissolved in water. You can read "de-ionised water" more simply as "water without anything dissolved in it."

 

Sure, if you put de-ionised water into a cast iron block, it will have iron ions dissolved in it in very short order, but that's not the point: you start with de-ionised water to be sure that is doesn't have other ions dissolved in it , because they are corrosive (like chloride) or leave scale deposits (like carbonate).

 

MP.

Edited October 18, 2009 by MoominPapa

[pugwash61]

No no no. Iron and ion are two completely different things. Ions are charged atoms, and for the purposes of this discussion, the form in which stuff exists when it is dissolved in water. You can read "de-ionised water" more simply as "water without anything dissolved in it."

 

Sure, if you put de-ionised water into a cast iron block, it will have iron ions dissolved in it in very short order, but that's not the point: you start with de-ionised water to be sure that is doesn't have other ions dissolved in it , because they are corrosive (like chloride) or leave scale deposits (like carbonate).

 

MP.

 

 

 

Was waiting for someone to come back & yes, your quite right. But as you say, within a very short time your back to square one. So whats the point in spending all that money?

[Guest]

Ethel hid the nightgown?

No, Ethel ironed it.