National Engine starter motor

[monkeyhanger]

Enough is enough.

 

I can start my engine, mostly, but when any little thing goes wrong (it overheated yesterday) it can be an exhausting process.

 

And I'm not getting any younger.

 

so...

 

I am going to put a starter motor on my National DM2 (or at least investigate the feasibilty)

 

Does anyone know of a machine shop that can handle putting a ring gear on a National flywheel?

 

and what flavour of starter motor would be recommended?

 

 

...otherwise I might be in the market for an HA2 or HA3

Tony Redshaw fitted en electric start to my JP2 this summer. Very nice job, but not cheap!

[Timleech]

How does it engage?

 

To be perfectly honest I have no idea. From what I remember the pinion is on a parallel spline (not a Bendix-type helix), but as to what pushes it along the spline I haven't a clue, never looked inside.

Sirnibble might be able to enlighten us?

 

It's certainly not like the bigger Nationals, which had a little petrol engine with a friction drive (think VeloSolex) onto the flywheel rim.

 

Tim

Edited September 28, 2009 by Timleech

[Arnot]

How does it engage?

There is a shaft inside the armature shaft that pushes the pinion forward, this in turn is operated by a solenoid. They were known as the"Simms Shift Pinion" starter and were used a lot by the MOD for tanks etc. They were built like a brick outhouse, marvellous engineering. Would probably cost more than the average engine if they were made today.

 

Possibly not seen since the old Queen even...

 

Regards

 

Arnot

 

Edit - cor they must be old, I just googled them and drew a blank!

Edited September 28, 2009 by Arnot

[PaddingtonBear]

Why should anyone expect fitting a complete electric start to be 'cheap'? can someone explain what this obsession is with 'cheap', in all cases you get what you pay for - monkeys and peanuts comes to mind.

[Chris Pink]

To be perfectly honest I have no idea. From what I remember the pinion is on a parallel spline (not a Bendix-type helix), but as to what pushes it along the spline I haven't a clue, never looked inside.

Sirnibble might be able to enlighten us?

 

It's certainly not like the bigger Nationals, which had a little petrol engine with a friction drive (think VeloSolex) onto the flywheel rim.

 

Tim

 

onto a ring gear? Rather than a belt or rubber wheel on the flywheel?

 

Why should anyone expect fitting a complete electric start to be 'cheap'? can someone explain what this obsession is with 'cheap', in all cases you get what you pay for - monkeys and peanuts comes to mind.

 

I don't expect it to be cheap. Where did you get that idea? I have been toying with this for years, mainly when it's difficult to start, funnily enough, but have waited because i want to do it properly rather than bodge something with v-belts or suchlike.

 

It's one thing at a time though. Find out why it don't go first.

[Timleech]

onto a ring gear? Rather than a belt or rubber wheel on the flywheel?

 

Entirely conventional in that sense. I think the ring gear it engaged with is now going round on the Swallow.

 

Tim

[Arnot]

i want to do it properly rather than bodge something with v-belts or suchlike.

Just a heads up here...

 

I get involved with adding electric start to a few older engines, sometimes as a project and sometimes just to supply the starter and wiring and it is almost always a time consuming and difficult job.

 

A while ago, it occurred to me that there was no obvious reason why an alternator could not be temporarily converted to a motor and used to start an engine provided it was beefy enough. So I have been collecting the bits over the summer to try this idea out over the winter.

 

If (and it's a big if) it works out, it should be possible to fit a large alternator that doubles as a starter motor and uses the pulley drive to transmit the torque. Only one machine to mount and install but a bit more electrickery to wire up.

 

For those who are interested the plan is to simulate a three phase supply, inject it into the stator whilst feeding the rotor fully. Then to control the frequency and current of the three phase to accellerate the flywheel to start the engine. There are quite a few potential stumbling blocks and as far as I know no-one has tried this yet on a 12V or 24V system. Combined alternator starters are however becoming popular on vehicles so that the engine can be stopped at traffic lights etc and restarted quickly but they do relay on higher voltages.

 

Regards

 

Arnot

[steamraiser2]

Drop Martyn an email at Marine Power Services (www.marinepowerservices.co.uk). He can sort machining, fitting a ring gear and sourcing a starter motor too. They make starter ring gears , including Lister JPs and FRs and Gardner types. There really is no need to cobble something up the skills are still out there!

[PaddingtonBear]

Sorry if I offended you Mr Pink, the comment about cost was made about Tony Redshaw by monkeyhanger - I wonder if he is from Hartlepool.

[Chris Pink]

Sorry if I offended you Mr Pink, the comment about cost was made about Tony Redshaw by monkeyhanger - I wonder if he is from Hartlepool.

 

No offence taken Mr B.

[monkeyhanger]

Tony Redshaw fitted en electric start to my JP2 this summer. Very nice job, but not cheap!

I should also have said that he removed the flywheel, machined it (or had it machined elsewhere) and fitted a ring gear. He's worth speaking to

[Ben2108]

It's always had pretty low compression but it does seem right down at the moment. I can turn the flywheel over compression with my foot (both cylinders) and as i say one inlet valve is hissing badly.

 

Probably a good time to do the starter as well.

 

The starter motor on Shirley is a CAV unit which partially energises to engage, before switching to full power. The armature rotates slowly whilst trying to slide along, when the gear engages it move fully along which switches full power to the motor. A fascinating bit of electromechanical cleverness

I have a lot of National spares if you need any.

[Chris Pink]

Probably a good time to do the starter as well.

 

The starter motor on Shirley is a CAV unit which partially energises to engage, before switching to full power. The armature rotates slowly whilst trying to slide along, when the gear engages it move fully along which switches full power to the motor. A fascinating bit of electromechanical cleverness

I have a lot of National spares if you need any.

 

Yes, i agree and it will be on a pallet this week.

 

How does this electo-mechanical whosit work? is it integral to the starter or a bit of bolt on electrics?

 

Is your crankcase door replaced?

 

Steve, above, master of his onions has said I'll need to replace this with a flat plate but if there was a way of making a bracket and keeping the original door I would like to do that.

 

I'm off to drop the pistons now, eek!

[Sir Nibble]

The starter motor on Shirley is a CAV unit which partially energises to engage, before switching to full power. The armature rotates slowly whilst trying to slide along, when the gear engages it move fully along which switches full power to the motor. A fascinating bit of electromechanical cleverness

 

 

How does this electo-mechanical whosit work? is it integral to the starter or a bit of bolt on electrics?

This is the mighty CA45 starter, Very very clever indeed and horrible to work on until you've done a dozen or so.

The whole issue is built into the starter. There is a large solenoid co-axial with the pinion that drives it forward as a contact closes to energise the motor through a resistor. When the pinion contacts the ring gear it's rotation is stopped and it is wound down a spiral spline by the rotation of the motor until it is fully engaged at which point a second contact closes to byepass the resistor.

There is a horrible confection of locking balls and sliding collars within as well.

[Ben2108]

Is your crankcase door replaced?

 

Steve, above, master of his onions has said I'll need to replace this with a flat plate but if there was a way of making a bracket and keeping the original door I would like to do that.

 

It is mounted on the door with a machined spacer and big U bolts, the main snag is that it is over the dip stick hole!

[billh]

RN diesels have starter rings for the National, they recently machined the flywheel and made the starter motor mounting for Daphne, the engine had become incredibly difficult to start by hand.

Interesting idea about using the alternator as a starter- it would need some fancy electronics to do it. Years ago, the FMC Fern had a JP2 which could be started by motoring the enormous dynamo through the two v -belts onto the rim of the flywheel. There was also a small Ruston air -cooled diesel that could run the dynamo for battery charging and this could also be started by motoring the dynamo. The dynamo was a CAV 24v off a London bus (Routemaster?). As it happens, the JP was easy to start by hand anyway, so the whole set-up was over complicated and mostly redundant!

Bill

[Steve Priest]

My starter is mounted pretty much as R. N. starters are, on a bracket mounted on the crankcase door, the problem with the original one is that it has a raised panel, so I thought it would be easier and a better job to replace this with a flat plate. My starter motor is more modern than the CA45. I don't know what type, but it is the same as the one on my Land rover, I had considered using a CA45 with the same bracket, but as Ben 2108 says, you can't get the dipstick out if you do because the starter is much longer, there is just enough room behind the one I used to get to it The other reason for using the modern starter is that it would be easier, and cheaper, to replace should I have a problem with it in the future, having said that if you had a CA45 in good condition I would doubt that you would have a problem. I think that the original National starters (electric starting was an option, but not one that the GUCCC availed itself of) were mounted on the engine feet. I have what I believe to be an original starter, but it is way beyond further use. If you do choose to fit a CA45, then perhaps the engine foot is a better place to mount it, and you can leave the crankcase door alone

 

Steve

[Jrtm]

I know this is a really old post but would a rn flywheel not fita national?

 

As in one off one on? Or are they compleatly diffrent even though there memt to be baced on the rn?

 

If its a stupid answer just say no

Edited May 1, 2016 by billybobbooth