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2 week boat exchange wanted

Hawksey

By Hawksey
in Holidays Afloat

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mayalld Veteran II

mayalld

Posted
Posted
In what way is this proposal commercial? This is not something being done in the course of running a business or for financial gain. Would not the simplest thing be that anyone who was interested in this exchange checks with BW and their insurance company before they go ahead?

 

It isn't material whether it is in the course of business.

 

The simple fact is that this is for hire or reward. The consideration in the contract being the reciprocal loan of a boat in each case.

 

"The insurance company will decide"

 

That is a very jaundiced view. I think in disputed cases a third party such as a judge will decide. And the onus will be on the insurer to PROVE that my best mate from Barcelona was under contract. A difficult task for any legal team in the absence of any paperwork and our strong sense of solidarity and friendship!

 

You are right but you are wrong, if you get my meaning! lol

 

OK, have it your way, and off you go with a comforting, but wholy wrong, belief in what the law will do.

 

Utmost good faith means that if you don't tell the insurance company something, and they decide it is relevant, they get to duck responsibility, end of story!

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Machpoint005 Veteran II

Machpoint005

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Posted

Dave is right. A new-found friend from Barcelona certainly wouldn't qualify on the insurance - a brother with boating experience (I've known him all his life) certainly would qualify as 'friend and family'. Where the line is drawn between the two is the only real question, but I suspect the line is much closer to the brother than the new pal.

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magpie patrick Veteran II

magpie patrickDonate to Canal World

Posted
Posted
In what way is this proposal commercial? This is not something being done in the course of running a business or for financial gain. Would not the simplest thing be that anyone who was interested in this exchange checks with BW and their insurance company before they go ahead?

 

 

It isn't material whether it is in the course of business.

 

The simple fact is that this is for hire or reward. The consideration in the contract being the reciprocal loan of a boat in each case.

 

Dave, I've done this a couple of times and told BW and insurers, okay, it was a house in Surrey not a yacht in Barcelona, but it was not regarded as "hire" by anyone

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Natalie Graham Proficient

Natalie Graham

Posted
Posted
It isn't material whether it is in the course of business.

 

Of course it is material if it is in the course of business or for financial gain. If it is not either of those things then it is not commercial. It is not only the transaction which is relevant but the context also. If I am making a living (or, more likely, struggling by) selling painted canalware from my boat, I need a trading licence. If I paint a water can on a quiet weekend, decide it doesn't suit my replica Mississppi stern-wheeler and post on here that anyone is interested in buying it can come round to the boat and have a look at it, then a trading licence is not required. The individual transaction is identical but the context determines whether the trading licence is required or not. Similarly, I can find nothing in the BW licence terms and conditions which would prevent me letting someone else use my boat on a one-off basis for a couple of weeks. Whether they just say thankyou at the end, buy me a nice bottle of wine and fill up the diesel tank or reciprocate with the use of their boat in the Mediterranean is immaterial.

 

As for the insurance, you advise the insurance company in advance (as is probably required by the policy) that senòr Josè Gonzalez and his partner will be using the boat for two weeks and they can make any necessary enquiries as to whether he represents a heightened risk to their business and can let it go ahead, ask for an extra premium, which this chap in Barcelona has said he will pay, or refuse to allow it, as they see fit. If they raise no objection then there is no problem. The insurance company is concerned with risk, not vetting your social circle.

 

It doesn't really matter whether I am right or you are right. It is how BW and the boat's insurers interpret

things that counts, so as I said, if anyone fancies a holiday on a yacht in the Med, then it should be a simple matter confirm the arrangements are ok with BW and the insurers before going ahead.

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mayalld Veteran II

mayalld

Posted
Posted
Car insurance is another example of this. You cant not use your car for hire or reward, however if you give somefriends a lift do you decline the drink they offer in return?

 

Receiving petrol money is specifically not hire or reward.

 

Receiving two weeks use of a boat is.

 

But believe what you will

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magpie patrick Veteran II

magpie patrickDonate to Canal World

Posted
Posted
It isn't a token.

 

Dave, there is more than just your opinion: I can in this instance quote the opinion of my insurance company.

 

When I have lent the boat out, I tell them. First Question "Is money Changing Hands?" No, other than for my out of pocket expenses (that's one reason I leave the boat full of diesel and get them to refill it, no possibility of the payment for fuel being generous)

 

One on occasion I said "I'm lending my boat to x, and while they are on board we are borrowing their house for a holiday"

 

"Is money changing hands (other than out of pocket expenses)" No

 

"Would they normally charge for the house, but are waiving all or part of the charge". No (I did ask how they would respond if I said yes, they didn't know)

 

That's fine then.

 

As far as they were concerned, this was an informal arrangement for borrowing each others assets which (and I'm putting words in their mouth here) neither party had put a fiscal value to. Therefore it wasn't hire

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Natalie Graham Proficient

Natalie Graham

Posted
Posted (edited)

So, if someone on the forum with a seventy-foot narrowboat on the Oxford Canal is looking to visit the Leeds and Liverpool and another forum member offers the use of their 45' wide-beam moored at Skipton for a couple of weeks and the narrowboat owner then suggests the wide-beam owners come and use the boat on the Oxford while they are up on the L&L. Is it the position that BW would then require both boats to have a Commercial Licence? There is nothing that I can find in BW's licence terms and condition to suggest it is

 

The swap offered in the OP would be an informal private arrangement between two individuals. It most certainly is not "hire or reward' which is the carriage of goods or passengers for a fare.

 

Of course, if one was off to Barcelona for two or three weeks and one's boat was not on its own moorings then it would need to be moved at some point, and as one is required to have a sufficient and competent crew on board while the boat is underway, one would need to be careful of who one asked to do it. Someone RYA qualified to offshore level would be ideal if such a person could be found. :lol:

Edited by Natalie Graham
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Yoda Experienced

Yoda

Posted
Posted

For insurance purposes, the term 'utmost good faith' is critical. It means that if they care to pursue you they can.

 

I would be very careful about swapping and not telling the insurance companies on both sides.

 

It is less of a problem for me, as I have a boatmasters but if you go sailing without qualification, that would invalidate all insurance and leave you with all third party costs.

 

If you are on the other hand not sailing/ditch crawling and just using said vessels as hotels, I see no reason to be worried.

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Proper Job Veteran

Proper Job

Posted
Posted (edited)
Dave, there is more than just your opinion: I can in this instance quote the opinion of my insurance company.

 

When I have lent the boat out, I tell them. First Question "Is money Changing Hands?" No, other than for my out of pocket expenses (that's one reason I leave the boat full of diesel and get them to refill it, no possibility of the payment for fuel being generous)

 

One on occasion I said "I'm lending my boat to x, and while they are on board we are borrowing their house for a holiday"

 

"Is money changing hands (other than out of pocket expenses)" No

 

"Would they normally charge for the house, but are waiving all or part of the charge". No (I did ask how they would respond if I said yes, they didn't know)

 

That's fine then.

 

As far as they were concerned, this was an informal arrangement for borrowing each others assets which (and I'm putting words in their mouth here) neither party had put a fiscal value to. Therefore it wasn't hire

 

That's an interesting point.

 

If the yacht was used by the Barcelona person for his own purposes then it would be fine? If however, he charters it out at any time and get financial return it would not be ok(?) because it would be deemed that the 'exchange' was in lieu of payment?

 

My folks have a holiday apartment in the South of France. During the holiday season it is let out for financial gain (while they are CC'ing round Europe in their dutch barge). Outside of the 'holiday season, the apartment is available to family, friend etc if they are not using it themselves. If they wanted to do an exchange for a boat/holiday apartment in the UK, would that be deemed as a commercial transaction?

 

Just wondered?

Edited by Proper Job
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PaddingtonBear Rising Star

PaddingtonBear

Posted
Posted

Surely the very serious point here, although I tend towards Dave's cautiousness, is that the Jeanneau 44 is a serious piece of kit and would need a seriously experienced lumpy water sailor to handle it as well as being worth a serious amount of money. Do the Jeanneau owners have any idea what they are letting themselves in for? - rusting hippy boat moored on the Ashton perhaps.

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Chagall Experienced

Chagall

Posted
Posted
Surely the very serious point here, although I tend towards Dave's cautiousness, is that the Jeanneau 44 is a serious piece of kit and would need a seriously experienced lumpy water sailor to handle it as well as being worth a serious amount of money. Do the Jeanneau owners have any idea what they are letting themselves in for? - rusting hippy boat moored on the Ashton perhaps.

 

Which is one of the reasons why I fancied the swap, a Jeanneau 44 in Barcelona......fantastic sailing. He probably would prefer an equally classy nb though, and I agree that caution will probably win over desire but I shall be checking the insurance policy and I will ask them about the risks etc....

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