BW Directors online

[PeterScott]

BW have had a couple of connection problems which is why the chat is slower than we'd like.

Working on the last post for twelve mins . Not worth waiting for imho. Is it me Simon thinks he agrees with? Surely not.

[The Toad in the Hole]

Is it me, or does the "cover it live" software appear to have stopped / slowed to a crawl?

[Richard Fairhurst]

If there's nothing showing up you can refresh the whole page (F5 if you're on a PC, Command-R on a Mac) - it'll download the whole chat from the beginning so you shouldn't miss anything.

 

On a moderation note, I'm trying to have questions keeping pace with answers at the moment, but will let everything through at the end if there's still any outstanding.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Richard Fairhurst

[dor]

Looks like BW plan on bringing in charges for visitor moorings next year ...

[debbifiggy]

Liked yours though. Don't give up. I asked "Would a Third Sector BW pay its Chief Executive more than the Prime Minister? " but as I didn't get much of an answer at the live forum ...

Maybe they should just login here Eugene-fashion

Nice one! Lol :-)

D

[MikeV]

Looks like BW plan on bringing in charges for visitor moorings next year ...

£0.50/meter for NB's and £1.00/meter for widebeams?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I enjoyed that - not sure they managed to answer the question about having a boater for vice chair ;-)

 

Perhaps WW will do a "debate" page on it but I suspect, after the mauling BW's Maggie Carver got from WW readers a few months back, one side of the page would be blank! Maybe Richard will run a poll.

[MartinClark]

Anyone who missed it can read it all (non-live) here:

http://www.waterwaysworld.com/latest.cgi#1568

 

I see it attracted many of the "usual suspects"...

[fuzzyduck]

It's a shame i only got home at 6.55Pm

[MartinClark]

It's a shame i only got home at 6.55Pm

But you still got your question in about Cassettes.

 

Personally, I prefer CDs.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Anyone who missed it can read it all (non-live) here:

http://www.waterwaysworld.com/latest.cgi#1568

 

I see it attracted many of the "usual suspects"...

 

I liked Carls post

[fuzzyduck]

But you still got your question in about Cassettes.

 

Personally, I prefer CDs.

 

You're old school, the best boats are fitted with Ogg Vorbis's

[Allan(nb Albert)]

May I also mention Dave (mayalld) who made an excellent contribution to the debate.

[mayalld]

May I also mention Dave (mayalld) who made an excellent contribution to the debate.

 

:-)

 

Sadly, I could only make the first half hour whilst I was on the train home, but interesting reading!

[DHutch]

I saw a post about it midday yesterday but on checking the website thought i had missed it and certainly couldnt see when it was. Interesting to read back through it however, so thankyou Richard for hosting it and thanks to Simon and Vince for taking time to answer it.

 

As said, it would be fantastic to see that become a regular (monthly?) occurrence, or to see someone from BW return to using this forum from time to time as Eugene did.

 

 

Daniel

[Cosmic]

This whole exercise bore a striking resemblance to PMQs. Lots of people raised well-thought-out questions on important subjects, most of which were ignored or deflected. I don't think there were any specific commitments arising from it, and I'm not sure that this kind of forum can ever achieve that.

 

What it definitely does achieve is that it shows the Directors of BW what boaters think are the most important issues and, if they have the guts to tackle them, then maybe BW can act on this to the benefit of everyone. However, particularly given the nature of some of the problems raised, I personally suspect that this is highly unlikely.

[haggis]

I found the debate an interesting if frustarting experience. It would be interesting to know how many questions were actually put to the BW directors and how many they actually answered. Most of their answers were "company speak" but the suggestion that the BW board should include at least one active boater didn't seem to go down well with them.

Over the years, I have found that BW on the face of it do a lot of consulting with users BUT they seldom listen or act on what is said. The answer given is enough to make the enquirer feel that the matter will be taken on board but in reality this does not seem to be the case. It is only much later when the subject crops up again that you realise that the platitude you were given was just "weasel words". But by doing this BW is "consulting" and therefore the directors get their brownie points.

I feel I am getting very cynical about the way the current board is running BW but in all honesty I am very worried about the future of the waterways if the present form of management is allowed to continue.

 

haggis,

Edited September 15, 2009 by haggis

[The Toad in the Hole]

I dipped in and out a bit last night, and (despite my reasonably pokey PC and connection) things did seem to periodically grind to a stop, but here's my thoughts on a couple of the points.

 

New boaters.

That's probably me in an old, basic and small narrowboat - the Llangollen new, charged for, facilities are of little use to me. I don't have mains power and I moor locally, so I reckon the visitor tax at Llangollen, which seems to be a preferred model for BW, adds maybe £30 onto my license. Fine if you're a holiday boat or a retiree making a onece only visit, less good for repeat trade. I don't need 240v power, I need clean toilet blocks/sani stations with showers - Use Maesbury as your model. I also need moorings that are more than 48 hours, because I don't live on board, and I might want to go out one weekend and back the next. There is a real possibility that BW are becoming a floating static caravan park, with the same levels of fit out and the same degree of inflexibility

 

Boaters on the board

I think BW would be fools to tie themselves to such a small pool of potential talent for such important positions. I'm not sure what an early retired account manager from Hounslow who happens to own a narrowboat could bring to the board that proper, consultation with boaters wouldn't but I do think they need to be more active in co-opting the specialist advice they need when they need it.

 

3rd sector model

The BW response to this was very telling - there seemed to be very much a public sector, "well volunteers can do the photocall and the litterpicking" approach to volunteer involvement. The thing they need to grasp is that volunteers aren't a plug and play option. It takes years to develop proper volunteer networks and requires support and investment on a par with opening a whole new office, but once they have the structures and the training in place, there is very little they can't do. But as a quid pro quo, they need real responsibility and governance roles as well - that means volunteers on the board in the fullness of time. BW are going to have look at different ways of doing things, they have been managing themselves on an old fashioned model, and they need to look elsewhere. They could start with getting organisational, rather than just technical advice from other bits of Defra like Natural England, who have a much better track record at volunteer involvement, and also to talk to bigger membership organisations (doesn't matter if they aren't considering membership at this stage) like (god forbid) RSPB or the nat. trust. And they need to go to them on the basis of equals, that they might actually offer BW some insights into the running of their whole organisation, not just about visitor centres or water voles.

 

 

And BW - stop being so bloody defensive. I want an active, healthy, well funded BW, just like you. If there's criticism, it's in the hope you might be able to do things better for all of us, and maybe, just maybe there is a brighter future, but you need to pull your corporate fingers out now.

[DHutch]

I hear that the Chairman did actually take part in the parade of historic narrow boats on President this year. It is probably a rumour but I heard that somehow the boat got stuck and he was given a practical lesson on the need for BW to maintain the canals properly. Anyone know it this is true?

I was there and as far as im aware its true.

- Certainly President struggled to get around the loop for lack of depth, amongst other things, as was reported to be carrying bw personnel on the saturday.

 

 

Daniel

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I found the debate an interesting if frustarting experience. It would be interesting to know how many questions were actually put to the BW directors and how many they actually answered. Most of their answers were "company speak" but the suggestion that the BW board should include at least one active boater didn't seem to go down well with them.

Over the years, I have found that BW on the face of it do a lot of consulting with users BUT they seldom listen or act on what is said. The answer given is enough to make the enquirer feel that the matter will be taken on board but in reality this does not seem to be the case. It is only much later when the subject crops up again that you realise that the platitude you were given was just "weasel words". But by doing this BW is "consulting" and therefore the directors get their brownie points.

I feel I am getting very cynical about the way the current board is running BW but in all honesty I am very worried about the future of the waterways if the present form of management is allowed to continue.

 

haggis,

 

My email sent to BW this am -

 

Hi Simon & Vince Thank you for contributing to the Waterways World online debate

I refer to the general call from contributors for a "boater on the board" and Simons response -

 

Guys - If you as individuals believe that all the members of the BW Board should be regular boaters and that all the experience needed can be drawn from that pool pf people then you are entitled to that belief - overall we need a range of people who can maintain the waterways, raise money for them, deal with environmental, heritage and conservation and regeneration issues and much else besides.

 

Simon misunderstood what was being said. I would point out that BW has, for many years, had a boater on the board (Richard Bowker) and that he was appointed vice chair by the waterways minister who said -

 

"I am delighted that Richard Bowker has accepted my offer to be the vice chair of the Board of British Waterways. He will bring strong support to the chair through his good balance of excellent commercial experience and his understanding of the waterways from a user's perspective. Richard is a keen and committed narrow boater having cruised extensively around the network. He therefore has great empathy with users. His experience and sound judgment will, I am sure, make him an effective deputy for Tony Hales as chair."

 

I will leave aside the issue of whether or not Richard Bowker had great empathy with users but the fact remains that he needs to be replaced by a boater to maintain the balance of skills needed on the board. It would seem from Simons response he feels that boaters want to take over the board! This is not the case, we are simply asking that a boater be replaced by a boater.

 

I have already suggested to the Waterways Minister that he asks BW's chairman, Tony Hales, to consult with the IWA in order to identify a new vice chair from officers or ex officers of one of the boating user groups. This will ensure that the board gets a suitable replacement who does have the needed empathy with users. I am sure any slight lack of commercial experience will be made up by the other nine board members so that is not an issue.

 

If BW feels that the board no longer needs a boater on it, I would be happy to attend the AGM and put up a case. Indeed, I am sure that many concerned with the future of our waterways would jump at the opportunity.

 

This issue is key to the future of BW, please do not ignore it!

 

Kindest Regards

Allan Richards

Edited September 15, 2009 by Allan(nb Albert)

[KenK]

Well done to Richard for organising the online debate. It is no real suprise that BW are good at fielding the questions, as in all the meetings I've been to it is always the same issues that are raised, they could probably answer them in their sleep.

 

If this type of online debate became a regular event it might be better to ask the questions and receive the answers in advance of the debate and then debate the answers. That way the questions vary and can be more specific, BW have more time to answer and we still get the debate.

 

Ken

[DHutch]

New boaters.

That's probably me in an old, basic and small narrowboat...

Just out of interest, how old are you? (no info in profile)

I always get cross at the 'crush anything worth less than £1000' and similar policy's because i do think there should be a low entry point to getting onto the canals both in terms of ownership and hire.

Im 22 and in the lucky position to have basically free and unrestricted access to Emilyanne, as well at the opportunity to work a pair and several other boats. But i pass a lot of people around the 20-25 age bracket who would love a weekends boating but simply cant afford it when the entry point is as high as it seams to most to be and a weeks hire would buy you a car a several months running costs. So that really stuck a cord. Its certainly something ive thought at lot about, particularly the lack of really cost-effective hiring options. Nothing wrong with camping boats!!

 

Boaters on the board

I think BW would be fools to tie themselves to such a small pool of potential talent for such important positions. I'm not sure what an early retired account manager from Hounslow who happens to own a narrowboat could bring to the board that proper, consultation with boaters wouldn't but I do think they need to be more active in co-opting the specialist advice they need when they need it.

I would agree that, while if someone suitable who is a boater, would be preferable to someone who hasnt done so much boating its atlease if not more important they can do the job of a board member. What you do need however is some boaters further down that are listened to and consultation that works. BWAF is a good idea and im sure it works, but the fact the bollard fiasco ever happened is non-negotiable fact that at some point something fairly major went wrong within BW and there thinking.

I also think BW need to seriously work on the topic of health and safety. As ive said many times, im not against taking steps to minimalism and prevent accidents and deaths though implementing safety measures and informing the ignorant (note, ignorant, not stupid) of the risks. However the knee-jerk system-wide roll out of cilly signs, bollards, trackside markers and the like just smat of thought less 'then we can been seen to have taken reasonable steps to....' type thinking. Where instead of a large and poorly worded sign on every other lock a line in the licence agreement would or should suffice. In conjunction with a very reduced select number of signs in hotspots.

 

3rd sector model

The BW response to this was very telling - there seemed to be very much a public sector, "well volunteers can do the photocall and the litterpicking" approach to volunteer involvement. The thing they need to grasp is that volunteers aren't a plug and play option. It takes years to develop proper volunteer networks and requires support and investment on a par with opening a whole new office, but once they have the structures and the training in place, there is very little they can't do. But as a quid pro quo, they need real responsibility and governance roles as well - that means volunteers on the board in the fullness of time. BW are going to have look at different ways of doing things, they have been managing themselves on an old fashioned model, and they need to look elsewhere. They could start with getting organisational, rather than just technical advice from other bits of Defra like Natural England, who have a much better track record at volunteer involvement, and also to talk to bigger membership organisations (doesn't matter if they aren't considering membership at this stage) like (god forbid) RSPB or the nat. trust. And they need to go to them on the basis of equals, that they might actually offer BW some insights into the running of their whole organisation, not just about visitor centres or water voles.

Couldnt have said it better. I think you dead right, that in this day and age, with funding the way it it, bw ARE missing a massive trick when it comes to voluntary work and the use of volunteers. With a little bit of work a volenteer base can function in the same way as a grounds maintenance contractor, but without being paid!

 

And BW - stop being so bloody defensive. I want an active, healthy, well funded BW, just like you. If there's criticism, it's in the hope you might be able to do things better for all of us, and maybe, just maybe there is a brighter future, but you need to pull your corporate fingers out now.

Again, nail on the head. Clearly sometimes we the public get the wrong end of the stick and you need to stick up for yourself and explain of actually what you as bw have done is right for x reason.

- But i would have a hell of a lot more respect for all involved if they could admit to making mistakes. Of cause they have made mistakes, everyone does, and the more you do the mistakes you will make (and bw is a big beast). But once you've made a mistake, hold you hands up to it, apologise, have a dam good shot at trying to work out why it happened and how you can not make a similar mistake again, and the move on.

- If someone on the boat could come out at say "You know what guys, the bollards on the locks thing, that was absolutely stupid and a massive waste of time and money that has defaced many a lockside and we're sorry." "And further to that, we have taken it as a massive wakeup call that we have a big hole somewhere that need attention. But in the mean time we do need to carry on and this is what we're doing next"

 

Instead we get this: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...=0&p=410549

 

 

 

Daniel

[Allan(nb Albert)]

- But i would have a hell of a lot more respect for all involved if they could admit to making mistakes. Of cause they have made mistakes, everyone does, and the more you do the mistakes you will make (and bw is a big beast). But once you've made a mistake, hold you hands up to it, apologise, have a dam good shot at trying to work out why it happened and how you can not make a similar mistake again, and the move on.

- If someone on the boat could come out at say "You know what guys, the bollards on the locks thing, that was absolutely stupid and a massive waste of time and money that has defaced many a lockside and we're sorry." "And further to that, we have taken it as a massive wakeup call that we have a big hole somewhere that need attention. But in the mean time we do need to carry on and this is what we're doing next"

 

Here is Robin Evans latest word on bollards to the board in January of this year:-

 

One standard, namely bollards in narrow locks, was criticised by experienced boaters. We

are sure that the new standard does improve safety at narrow locks and we are working to

convince the doubters. The key issue is that we must provide a safe environment for all

our customers.

This I would suggest demonstrates why we need a "boater on the board" and why BW's non executive directors are so against it.

 

BW means never having to say you are sorry!

 

Despite having a declared policy of openness and accountability BW will never admit to failure and refuse to be accountable.

[The Toad in the Hole]

Just out of interest, how old are you? (no info in profile)

I always get cross at the 'crush anything worth less than £1000' and similar policy's because i do think there should be a low entry point to getting onto the canals both in terms of ownership and hire.

Im 22 and in the lucky position to have basically free and unrestricted access to Emilyanne, as well at the opportunity to work a pair and several other boats. But i pass a lot of people around the 20-25 age bracket who would love a weekends boating but simply cant afford it when the entry point is as high as it seams to most to be and a weeks hire would buy you a car a several months running costs. So that really stuck a cord. Its certainly something ive thought at lot about, particularly the lack of really cost-effective hiring options. Nothing wrong with camping boats!!

 

I'm early 40s - I really should get round to expanding my profile. When I was your age, my (to be) inlaws had a 60' semitrad, and we used that a lot - I probably wouldn't have a boat otherwise, but we couldn't justify spending that sort of money on a boat we couldn't use all the time. We bought our current boat on impulse from friends and it's extraordinarily basic - more akin to a steel bothy.

 

I spend a lot of time working in and around big conservation charities, and I'm watching with something between horror and disbelief as BW try to reinvent the wheel here. They really need to sort their attitude to volunteers out if they have any serious interest in moving towards that sort of a model. At the moment they are sounding like the parks department of a not particularly forward looking District Council.

[Chris Pink]

Well done to Richard for organising the online debate. It is no real suprise that BW are good at fielding the questions, as in all the meetings I've been to it is always the same issues that are raised, they could probably answer them in their sleep.

 

If this type of online debate became a regular event it might be better to ask the questions and receive the answers in advance of the debate and then debate the answers. That way the questions vary and can be more specific, BW have more time to answer and we still get the debate.

 

Ken

 

 

What's all this 'answers' stuff? i followed this online debate and didn't see anything i would class as an 'answer'. More like politicians on the Today programme; deflecting, ducking and diving, promoting ad infinitum a party line but nothing like an 'answer'.

 

Which, given the thought Dave Mayall and Carl and others put into framing their questions was, to my mind, completely insulting.

 

The 'answer' to my question (from Vince Moran) apart from being a non-answer was either a lie, or a complete inability to remember something that occurred 2 months ago - and I have it in print. So lier or incompetent? neither quality i wish to see in a senior executive of BW.