CCERS assoc ?

[journeyperson]

I love the fact I disturbed a kingfisher on my way home, that doesn't happen to many people in (alleged) social housing.

 

I'll have you know that there are kingfishers on the Bridgewater in Trafford Park, just past the social housing estate.

[Chris Pink]

Ah pocket money then

 

Well if all the BW moorers come off their moorings and moored whereever they want, it will certainly leave a lot more space for those of us who bemoan the fact that BW have rented out some of their favourite mooring places.

 

As I was attempting to point out before you and your pet dragon engaged your mouths before brains, the impact would not be felt financially - making the assertions about cruisers 'not paying their way' a little specious.

 

I'll have you know that there are kingfishers on the Bridgewater in Trafford Park, just past the social housing estate.

 

That's ok then, I'll leave my unsightly hulks to gently rot away then and go and live in Trafford.

[mayalld]

Just for the record mooring permits were £4.6 million out of £167 million operating income in 2007-2008 or 2.7%, small enough to make my point which was to disagree with Casper Ghost about the financial impact of his assertion.

 

So, you have proved what?

 

You have proved that you can make statistics say anything that you want.

 

Try looking at it in terms of income shortfall/surplus.

 

i.e. how far is BW from being able to balance its books in terms of carrying out all necessary expenditure to reach steady state.

 

£4.6m is a much larger percentage of that figure.

 

As I was attempting to point out before you and your pet dragon engaged your mouths before brains

 

Ah, so we are ganging up on you together are we?

 

Probably in the same way as Maggie and King Arthur did!

 

Do you achieve this complete detachment from reality without using mind-altering drugs?

[carlt]

Really?

Evidence?

I live in a house on a small street, I have no passion whatever for small streets.

Me too! It is the only house on the street with its original windows, fireplaces, bath and fittings.

 

It is also the only house with a slate roof, still and none of the outhouses have been knocked together, into a nasty modern extension.

 

I am quite passionate about my house.

 

My boats and vehicles too, of course (I'm starting to feel unrepresentative).

[mayalld]

Me too! It is the only house on the street with its original windows, fireplaces, bath and fittings.

 

It is also the only house with a slate roof, still and none of the outhouses have been knocked together, into a nasty modern extension.

 

I am quite passionate about my house.

 

My boats and vehicles too, of course (I'm starting to feel unrepresentative).

 

Are you supposed to be representative?

[carlt]

Are you supposed to be representative?

No, I started to use myself as an example of how people can be passionate about their old Victorian houses but quickly realised I was living in a sash-windowed oasis, in a passionless Safestyle UK desert.

[Chris Pink]

So, you have proved what?

 

Having been distracted by the first ever insult by PM - gosh does that make me feel special.

 

anyway focus Pink focus

 

No Dave I haven't proved anything, though it seems to have got you and your friend going around in little circles.

 

Read my original reply to Caspar Ghost's point about the impact of all BW moorers leaving their moorings and it might, just might, penetrate the oily surface of your understanding what the point was that I was trying to make.

 

Love from the 'Aggressive Twat' - did i spell that right Martyn with a y?

 

how far is BW from being able to balance its books in terms of carrying out all necessary expenditure to reach steady state.

 

Last time i looked it was about the same as the director's salaries and bonuses for one year.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Chris Pink

[mayalld]

No Dave I haven't proved anything, though it seems to have got you and your friend going around in little circles.

 

Phylis isn't my "friend"

[Nightwatch]

In the pink, Chris, in the pink.

You are still going off on one though.

 

Sad.

[journeyperson]

Phylis isn't my "friend"

 

 

You could have let her think you were for more than 4 minutes....

[Sir Nibble]

Well if all the BW moorers come off their moorings and moored whereever they want, it will certainly leave a lot more space for those of us who bemoan the fact that BW have rented out some of their favourite mooring places.

Excellent! I don't even have to write my own post, I can just cut, paste and edit.

more space for those of us who bemoan the fact that non compliant CCers have claimed for their own use some of their favourite mooring places.

[mayalld]

You could have let her think you were for more than 4 minutes....

 

Whatever else she may be, I really don't imagine that she is THAT stupid!

[casper ghost]

Read my original reply to Caspar Ghost's point about the impact of all BW moorers leaving their moorings

Hi. Couldn't find your reply, did we agree or not

[Smelly]

Round and round we go...

 

I have said elsewhere that possibly the lack of hard and fast rules serves a purpose, as if the lines were too tight people would trip over them. "I've got to go and see my dying mum in hospital" or "I've just found out I'm dying of terminal cancer, they've given me 15 days to live"... "Sorry mate, rules is rules, bugger off or I'll impound your boat; I've gotta follow the law".

 

They need to be ambiguous to cover all possible events.

 

I had a couple of quotes lined up but have lost them, so I think it was Casper who mentioned people getting Housing Benefit for moorings and licence and alleging Councils might be "enlightened", err sorry they're both misinformed as by the book you're only entitled for your moorings, the licence being perceived as an ineligible service charge, although arguably it isn't, that's a challenge I'd be interested in representing if anyone's recently been awarded Housing Benefit.

 

Boat painting would also be ineligible as it does not relate to the occupancy but the maintenance. References on request.

 

As an aside, I think any thread that descends into insult by PM should be closed as the thread's served as much of a useful purpose as it can and there are some cases where the argument will never be settled.

 

Anyone for an autonomous Palestinian State? Come on kids, we can get our molotovs out with that one instead of PM's.

 

edit, I'll apologise for difficult to read text in my last reply here, however I'm going to have to find out which browser in which OS I used so I'm making no promises as to editing it.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Smelly

[Nightwatch]

I PM'ed Chris Pink as I thought it more appropiate in the circumstances.

 

I really didn't think swearing in open play the right thing to do, however he does.

 

I am sorry I did this but the guys so...............

 

Martyn. (By the way my parents put the 'y' in not me. I think it is rather superior. No I don't really.)

[carlt]

I had a couple of quotes lined up but have lost them, so I think it was Casper who mentioned people getting Housing Benefit for moorings and licence and alleging Councils might be "enlightened", err sorry they're both misinformed as by the book you're only entitled for your moorings, the licence being perceived as an ineligible service charge, although arguably it isn't, that's a challenge I'd be interested in representing if anyone's recently been awarded Housing Benefit.

Swmbo's sister received housing benefit, for mooring and licence (though she has no boat, now) and I know of one ccer who receives housing benefit, for her licence only.

 

Someone (who probably desires anonymity) was also, without my knowledge, at the time, was also using my mooring, as a paper one, because their mooring was over the border and their council wouldn't pay HB but (apparently) mine would.

[casper ghost]

Going back to the original thread topic..

 

Quote: Anyway is there an association for the CCER?

 

Answer: No.

 

There, we can close the thread now..

[Natalie Graham]

[/color]

Natalie,

 

I'm in agreement with much of what you post, here , and elsewhere.

 

However I struggle to agree with the point highlighted above.

 

Unless my understanding is flawed, the legislation on which much of the argument in this thread is based, is from 1995, not (say) 1965.

 

Have things really changed that much in 14 years. There may be more boats on the system, and bigger colonies of people who seldom move, but there were plenty of marinas in 1995, and plenty of non movers too.

 

Hi Alan,

 

I did say I was working from memory having researched this quite extensively when we previously discussed it in December and I wanted to avoid revisiting all that. I was thinking the terms of the 1995 Act had a basis in something earlier. I could well have been remembering incorrectly. In partial mitigation I will point out that the British Waterway Bill was originally introduced to parliament in 1990, so that makes it 19 years. I don't think though that this error necessarily detracts from my main point that the present situation seems both to be unworkable and the cause of a deal of displeasure among a number of boaters for a variety of reasons. Rather than rehashing the endless old debates about people not pulling their weight, not obeying the rules, social housing and the rest of it, the British Waterways consultation paper affords an opportunity to look at new ideas for alternatives to the current set up.

 

I was prompted by your post though to go back to some of the Hansard records of the debates surrounding the Bill. One thing I found of interest was that those debating the Bill in Parliament seemed unaware of the distinction which BW makes between houseboats and residential boats. Here is an interesting example:

 

My second point concerns people with houseboats on the canals and the problems that exist, particularly for people on low incomes. There is a substantial difference between people in the south of England, who generally have a reasonable income, and people who live on canals in the north and are on extremely low incomes. They enjoy owning boats and travelling around the canals more slowly than people having a fortnight's holiday and wanting to travel a substantial distance.

 

Those people like to travel for a few months around the canal network and then stop and find employment for a few months. They feel under pressure because of the sensible concerns about safety. I hope that when the Committee considers the issue we will be assured that people on low incomes will not be penalised if they do not have permanent moorings, and that if they progress around the canal system and do not need a permanent mooring they will not be in difficulty.

 

Clearly the speaker here considered houseboats to include those which are capable of moving around the system and also that making progress around the system would not preclude stopping to find employment for a few months.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Natalie Graham

[carlt]

Clearly the speaker here considered houseboats to include those which are capable of moving around the system and also that making progress around the system would not preclude stopping to find employment for a few months.

Does anyone know what happened to the ODPM study into living on boats and security of tenure?

 

Did it die, quietly, when Prescott was ousted?

[sueb]

Going back to the original thread topic..

 

Quote: Anyway is there an association for the CCER?

 

Answer: No.

 

There, we can close the thread now..

If you mean does any organisation represent the ccer the answer is yes and more than one.

Sue

[Chris Pink]

Clearly the speaker here considered houseboats to include those which are capable of moving around the system and also that making progress around the system would not preclude stopping to find employment for a few months.

 

It took quite sustained lobbying, hence the 5 years going through parliament, to restrain BW's stated desire that every boat should have a mooring.

It could be argued that Section 17 (3)i is a much watered version of what was called for by boating groups that included at that time NABO before it lost it's teeth and RBOA before it became BW's patsy - though IWA at that time was already firmly in BW's pocket.

 

It was mainly the work of one man, a lawyer whose name, to my shame, i forget, now dead who did more than anybody else to preserve some sense of fair dealing.

 

Maybe now that the leisure boating industry is more prominent in the public eye you will find more boat-literate politicians but I suspect that the majority would still wonder what the fuss was about.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Chris Pink

[Natalie Graham]

It took quite sustained lobbying, hence the 5 years going through parliament,

That, and the Bill having to be re-introduced after it was lost to the 1992 General Election. Sad to say I lost touch with the waterways during the 1990's.

[carlt]

Sad to say I lost touch with the waterways during the 1990's.

You weren't face-down in a Parisian gutter too, were you?

[sueb]

It took quite sustained lobbying, hence the 5 years going through parliament, to restrain BW's stated desire that every boat should have a mooring.

It could be argued that Section 17 (3)i is a much watered version of what was called for by boating groups that included at that time NABO before it lost it's teeth and RBOA before it became BW's patsy - though IWA at that time was already firmly in BW's pocket.

User groups can't win can they? Nabo was accused of BW bashing when others thought BW could do no wrong. Now because it is using a more rational approach it is accused of loosing it's teeth.

 

It was mainly the work of one man, a lawyer whose name, to my shame, i forget, now dead who did more than anybody else to preserve some sense of fair dealing.

Would that be Nick Grazebrooke?

 

Maybe now that the leisure boating industry is more prominent in the public eye you will find more boat-literate politicians but I suspect that the majority would still wonder what the fuss was about.

 

Sue Having trouble with colour

Edited May 6, 2009 by sueb

[nigel fryer]

I am one of three CCers cruising together and when we get up the Lancaster we will be joined by another CCer so we will then be four CCers cruising together if we find a Little Chef we might even all go for breakfast.

 

Bad news the Little chef on the A6 has now shut !

Sorry Nige