Changing Engine Oil

[Androo]

To be clear.......

 

In the case of the BMC, are you saying that those who suggest they are less likely to bore glaze run on API-CC, than on a more modern spec, do not know what they are talking about ?

 

Those making that statement include one of our contributors who regularly runs marine diesel courses, has years of experience, and certainly has no financial interest in making us buy an oil we do not need. I would trust his independent view more than most.

 

In fact I can't understand what's in it even for HMI-Isuzu to say you need to use an API-CC in their more modern engines. They are not saying you have to use their oil, just anybody that makes an API-CC one. Why would they say that, if there was no technical background to it ?

 

Canal boat engines have a very different use pattern to automotive and industrial ones, so just because the same base engine wouldn't need an API-CC in a non canal environment, I don't think that disproves it might be a good idea in canal use, does it?

 

Alan is this more or less OK?

 

Don't care about price. 20 pounds + spent on oil is better than thousands spent on a new engine.

 

http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/scripts/...p;idProduct=251

 

My boat is 12yrs old not so sure about the age of the engine only the hrs done (4000hrs)

Edited March 25, 2009 by Androo

[Scotty]

The easiest place i've found to buy API-CC has been B&Q

£9.98 for 4.5L

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?acti...ELAID=266990224

[Chris Davidson]

Hi, probably not a lot of help, except to people living in the Peterborough area.

Millfield Autos on Lincoln road sell an amazing range of engine oils including:

Comma 20W50 API CC which I paid £11 for 4.5 litres

The Daytona brand that B&Q sell for only £6.99 for 4.5 litres

and a whole range of other API CC grade oils from Morris and others.

 

Hope this helps someone, and I am in no way involved with the above company.

 

Thanks Chris

[churchward]

To be clear.......

 

In the case of the BMC, are you saying that those who suggest they are less likely to bore glaze run on API-CC, than on a more modern spec, do not know what they are talking about ?

 

Those making that statement include one of our contributors who regularly runs marine diesel courses, has years of experience, and certainly has no financial interest in making us buy an oil we do not need. I would trust his independent view more than most.

 

In fact I can't understand what's in it even for HMI-Isuzu to say you need to use an API-CC in their more modern engines. They are not saying you have to use their oil, just anybody that makes an API-CC one. Why would they say that, if there was no technical background to it ?

 

Canal boat engines have a very different use pattern to automotive and industrial ones, so just because the same base engine wouldn't need an API-CC in a non canal environment, I don't think that disproves it might be a good idea in canal use, does it?

 

I stand by my statement.

 

If you take the trouble to read the rest of my posts you will see that I am saying that in some cases you may need the lower spec and indeed I say about IZUZU is likely to be because they are playing safe with the CC spec because of the light loading in canal use. All your points are addressed in my previous posts and in some way I agree. However as I say I stand by what I said as I do know something about the chemical make up of CE and CF spec oils and the effects it can have it is not very sophisticated stuff compared to the later spec oils.

 

The thing is as is the case with the example of Perkins Diesels a little further up they have done some testing on the later spec oils and found them OK for use. It is just that some folk hang onto what the original manual says when the reality is that it's just that they higher spec oils weren't around at the time but are perfectly OK.

 

As far as the BMC engine is concerned I did say (just a few posts up)

 

.....In the case of the BMC diesel I don't know the internal construction so it is hard to be specific although I imagine it is rather like the build standard of a BMC B series Petrol as found in MGBs etc. These like the old A series will perform perfectly OK on a higher spec 20W/50 multigrade (mineral not synthetic) but they do cope better with a Classic blend such as the Castrol Classic XL or the Morris Magnol....

 

on the subject of IZUZU like engines I also said

 

....CE/CF oils aren't anything special either but they do assume a level of use and load in the engine which is where some of the Japanese engine clones may need a lower spec in a canal context as often they are not doing much more than ticking over. Which is where you have the potential for more rapid bore glazing with using a more modern oil.....

 

 

I really don't grasp the point you are trying to make Alan.

Edited March 25, 2009 by churchward

[alan_fincher]

Alan is this more or less OK?

 

Don't care about price. 20 pounds + spent on oil is better than thousands spent on a new engine.

 

http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/scripts/...p;idProduct=251

 

My boat is 12yrs old not so sure about the age of the engine only the hrs done (4000hrs)

Yes that's absolutely fine, but will doubtless be a relatively expensive way of doing it.

 

I can't see why there should ve any problem with the B&Q "Carlube Daytona" stuff that Scotty listed either.

 

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?acti...ELAID=266990224

 

It's the same viscosity, sape API-CC spec, and probaly (I'm guessing) about half the price.

 

I've never been able to find a suitable oil in my local B&Q though, but will now look again.

[Richard T]

Are you saying that you change your oil 5 times per year or that after one year any oil left over needs to be chucked ?

 

 

 

We change our oil about 5times a year - approx 800 engine hours per year plus a change in the spring before the season starts and we use the same oil in the PRM gear box.

[churchward]

We change our oil about 5times a year - approx 800 engine hours per year plus a change in the spring before the season starts and we use the same oil in the PRM gear box.

 

Just a thought here but it is often better to make a change of oil as a last action before laying the boat up (or less use) for winter rather than waiting to change it before the season starts in the Spring. The reason is is that it is better for an engine to sit idle with clean oil than sit in a bath of spent oil with all it's contaminents that can excelerate decay. The clean engine oil will not "go-off" just sat waiting for the get-go in the spring.

Edited March 25, 2009 by churchward

[Naughty Cal]

We change our oil about 5times a year - approx 800 engine hours per year plus a change in the spring before the season starts and we use the same oil in the PRM gear box.

 

We change ours every 100 hours. Its a real pain but the manual states we should so we do. At 9 litres a time it isnt going to be a cheap process but i would prefer to do it for my own peace of mind.

[Androo]

Didn't realise the oil needed to be changed so often.

 

One question.... with every oil change do you need to change the filter as well? I have the type that just unscrews and then you screw on a new one...

 

Thanks for the B&Q link..

 

Androo

[churchward]

Didn't realise the oil needed to be changed so often.

 

One question.... with every oil change do you need to change the filter as well? I have the type that just unscrews and then you screw on a new one...

 

Thanks for the B&Q link..

 

Androo

 

Frequency of oil change depends on the type of engine. Some are every 100 or so and some around 250 hours. You must change the oil filter each time.

 

According to the Calcutt manual for the BMC engine oil changes should be every 300 hours. However, other folk with that engine type may be able to say if in practice it should be different.

Edited March 26, 2009 by churchward

[Richard T]

Our BMC 1.8 is a Thornycroft marinisation and the manual states oil change at 200 hour intervals. We change our oil so regularly and the only time the boat is not in use is from the New Year to just before Easter and even then it often gets taken for a day trip. This New Year the oil had only 50 hours use - so a change was not considered necessary but we will change it at about 120 hours. The oil filter is changed every oil change. We do fuel filters at 400 hour intervals. We have a remote oil filter so changing it is very easy and much cleaner than having it on the crankcase.

[David Schweizer]

Frequency of oil change depends on the type of engine. Some are every 100 or so and some around 250 hours. You must change the oil filter each time.

 

According to the Calcutt manual for the BMC engine oil changes should be every 300 hours. However, other folk with that engine type may be able to say if in practice it should be different.

 

Every other workshop manual on BMC 1.5 based engines I have read, states every 200 hours.

 

I would be interested to hear how well people who adhere to an every 300 hour regime fare. I once allowed the oil service on the BMC 1.5 in my boat to over run by about 40hours, and the engine started to sound very rough.

Edited March 26, 2009 by David Schweizer

[churchward]

Every other workshop manual on BMC 1.5 based engines I have read, states every 200 hours.

 

I would be interested to hear how well people who adhere to an every 300 hour regime fare. I once allowed the oil service on the BMC 1.5 in my boat to over run by about 40hours, and the engine started to sound very rough.

 

Quite probably so but I was quoting from the document in the link below that Alan supplied earlier on in the thread. The service interval page is near the bottom of the document. However, I realise now I mis read it. I was looking at the table which only states 300 and 600 hour services but a little above the table it states the oil should be changed every 150 hours as well.

 

http://www.calcuttboats.com/pdfs/Handbook%...&%201.8.pdf

Edited March 26, 2009 by churchward

[Nitrox21]

Just a thought here but it is often better to make a change of oil as a last action before laying the boat up (or less use) for winter rather than waiting to change it before the season starts in the Spring. The reason is is that it is better for an engine to sit idle with clean oil than sit in a bath of spent oil with all it's contaminents that can excelerate decay. The clean engine oil will not "go-off" just sat waiting for the get-go in the spring.

 

 

Ref changing at the end of the season, if the boat is to be laid up for the winter, then as it sweats the condensate will contaminate the new oil.

If you swap at the start of the season, then you flush any condensate out with the old oil.

[chris w]

Both Isuzu themselves and Baldock both categorically told me that I must use an API-CC oil in my modern Isuzu 35. (If that's not available in emergency, then use an API-CD but definitely no higher in spec).

 

Baldock can explain much better than I can, but basically unless the engine is run under heavy load always, the higher (incorrect) grade oils will allow bore glazing to occur.

 

Chris

[churchward]

Ref changing at the end of the season, if the boat is to be laid up for the winter, then as it sweats the condensate will contaminate the new oil.

If you swap at the start of the season, then you flush any condensate out with the old oil.

True, there may be a very small amount of condensation but that is preferable to the egine sitting in a bath of spent oil for months. Changing oil before a lay-up is the preferable option from a engine protection perspective.

[Tony Brooks]

Both Isuzu themselves and Baldock both categorically told me that I must use an API-CC oil in my modern Isuzu 35. (If that's not available in emergency, then use an API-CD but definitely no higher in spec).

 

Baldock can explain much better than I can, but basically unless the engine is run under heavy load always, the higher (incorrect) grade oils will allow bore glazing to occur.

 

Chris

 

 

There are so many things that make an engine prone to glazing or not that I do not think we can be quiet as definite as Chris but basically he is right. All I would say is change "will allow" to might allow" and its a very good answer.

 

Both Lister and Isuzu sell 15W40 oil in API CC in 5 gallon cans. For the BMC I would use Comma Premium (not Motorway) 20W50 or Unipart 20W50 from motor factors.

[churchward]

Both Isuzu themselves and Baldock both categorically told me that I must use an API-CC oil in my modern Isuzu 35. (If that's not available in emergency, then use an API-CD but definitely no higher in spec).

 

Baldock can explain much better than I can, but basically unless the engine is run under heavy load always, the higher (incorrect) grade oils will allow bore glazing to occur.

 

Chris

Engine loading is a major factor in bore glazing but also it seems to occur more easily on an engine that runs at near constant revs particularly if the rpm level is not that high compared to the engines limit. Bore glazing is not difficult to get rid of in an engine but a bit of a pain in a boat context where access to the sump is often non-existent without removing the engine.

 

The Isuzu lump may indeed be more prone to it than others. However the design of the engine (in it's intended use) does not exclude the use of an API CF spec in fact it is likely to be desirable. Many of the other types of engine we use the boats will be fine on an API CF spec oil.

 

If you do use API CC or lower spec from new every few oil changes it is a good idea to run a flushing oil through too to help clear any build up of goo in the sump and oil ways.

Edited May 13, 2009 by churchward

[chris w]

Engine loading is a major factor in bore glazing but also it seems to occur more easily on an engine that runs as near constant revs particularly if the rpm level is not that high compared to the engines limit. Bore glazing is not difficult to get rid of in an engine but a bit of a pain in a boat context where access to the sump is often non-existent without removing the engine.

 

The Isuzu lump may indeed be more prone to it than others. However the design of the engine (in it's intended use) does not exclude the use of an API CF spec in fact it is likely to be desirable.

 

I'm no oil expert but Isuzu (and Baldock) state categorically that an API CC oil MUST be used in all Isuzu boat engines except the Isuzu 70. (I have an Isuzu 35)

 

Chris

Edited May 13, 2009 by chris w

[churchward]

There are so many things that make an engine prone to glazing or not that I do not think we can be quiet as definite as Chris but basically he is right. All I would say is change "will allow" to might allow" and its a very good answer.

 

Both Lister and Isuzu sell 15W40 oil in API CC in 5 gallon cans. For the BMC I would use Comma Premium (not Motorway) 20W50 or Unipart 20W50 from motor factors.

The Morris oils 10W 40 (in their Golden film range) is worth a try. A good quality mineral oil API CC and the thinner spec at lower temp could help starting and initial circulation of the oil in the all important few seconds of running from cold.

 

I'm no oil expert but Isuzu (and Baldock) state categorically that an API CC oil MUST be used in all Isuzu boat engines except the Isuzu 70. (I have an Isuzu 35)

 

Chris

Yes I know but they are not designed for boats are they? When used for what they are designed for they can use higher spec oils. I don't think Isuzu specify API CC HMI the importer/mariniser does.

[Keeping Up]

Every engine manufacturer tells a different story from all the others.

[chris w]

Yes I know but they are not designed for boats are they? ...............

 

 

So far as I am concerned they are for boats, unless I've signed into the wrong Forum!!

Edited May 13, 2009 by chris w

[churchward]

So far as I am concerned they are for boats, unless I've signed into the wrong Forum!!

Now you are just being obtuse Chris. The engineer that designed the engine wasn't thinking about boats at the time it just so happens that they are simple enough modern engines that can be used in boats just like Kubota and Mitsubishi derivatives.

 

The thing is just like the laws and physics that dictate electrickery there are things that dictate how an engine performs and the effect of the oil that you put in it. It is not Alchemy or magic too much myth and mis-understanding has evolved around engine oil and its effects.

Edited May 13, 2009 by churchward

[chris w]

That's as may be, but if the vendor of the engine states that (in a boat) it must use API CC oi, then I'm gonna use API CC oil.

 

Chris

[churchward]

That's as may be, but if the vendor of the engine states that (in a boat) it must use API CC oi, then I'm gonna use API CC oil.

 

Chris

Yer 'avin a laugh!

 

I didn't say you shouldn't.